Salary Cap: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster Building / Proposal Thread Part XII

[RGY]

At least you know it was nonsense.

Stop with the AA love, we don't need him. What the hell does he do for us? He is 6'4 and softer than a marshmallow, we need that? Enough

Ok dont address the part about the game of hockey and how its played. Keep showing how much you dont know, maybe because you lack the personal experience, about the defensive side of the puck. Call it nonsense all you want, you just sound foolish.

If AA is "soft" then id sure as hell like to know what Chris Higgins is...

Theres no AA love. He is center who started his career here and was successful. He developed with the core of thise team Stepan, Staal, McDonagh, Girardi, Henrik... Its a sensible idea to entertain if the circumstances were right in trade negotiations

 

[Raspewtin]

I don't know how you can call AA soft but imply Higgins isn't.

If I had to choose I'd much rather AA. Higgins isn't good really.

 

[RGY]

As long as he wins board battles I don't care if he's physical really.

I won't forget stats like corsi because I value them in measuring player performances. Winnik is Stempniak-esque in that he's not really impressive on the ice, but he gets good results regardless.

But thats the thing...Stempniak is the only guy I'd see being upgraded with Winnik. I favor Stempniak because he has been here all year now, he knows the system. We've seen in back to back years how it can take an adjustment period to learn AVs system, and for some its longer than others...see Pouliot as one of many examples last year.

I want to make the right move. Not one just for the sake of making one because were a playoff team and it results in upgrading the 12th forward who really doesnt need to be upgraded

 

[bobbop]

When Tortorella moved AA to the wing with Stepan and GABORIK, not Nash, he played very well. Very effective on the boards.

)blush( meant Gaborik

 

[NYRangerFan*]

Ok dont address the part about the game of hockey and how its played. Keep showing how much you dont know, maybe because you lack the personal experience, about the defensive side of the puck. Call it nonsense all you want, you just sound foolish.

If AA is "soft" then id sure as hell like to know what Chris Higgins is...

Theres no AA love. He is center who started his career here and was successful. He developed with the core of thise team Stepan, Staal, McDonagh, Girardi, Henrik... Its a sensible idea to entertain if the circumstances were right in trade negotiations

What the hell are you talking about? What does personal experience have to do with it? I said we don't need AA and you got emotional. Not my fault. I know how important defense is.

Oh, now its because he grew up with the core? Get Dubinsky, Callahan, Del Zotto and maybe even Brodie Dupont because they were team mates on the farm right?

AA adds nothing to this team

 

[NYRangerFan*]

I don't know how you can call AA soft but imply Higgins isn't.

If I had to choose I'd much rather AA. Higgins isn't good really.

I don't want neither but i said Higgins because he played under AV before.

 

[Raspewtin]

But thats the thing...Stempniak is the only guy I'd see being upgraded with Winnik. I favor Stempniak because he has been here all year now, he knows the system. We've seen in back to back years how it can take an adjustment period to learn AVs system, and for some its longer than others...see Pouliot as one of many examples last year.

I want to make the right move. Not one just for the sake of making one because were a playoff team and it results in upgrading the 12th forward who really doesnt need to be upgraded

I dunno, I don't think you're giving Winnik much credit.

But if anything, I'd rather get a winger that can take draws. Santorelli pls.

 

[NYRangerFan*]

Winnik would be good for the 4th line. How can you say otherwise?

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

with the emergence of Brassard with more ice time, I have absolutely zero interest in ROR

 

[RGY]

What the hell are you talking about? What does personal experience have to do with it? I said we don't need AA and you got emotional. Not my fault. I know how important defense is.

Oh, now its because he grew up with the core? Get Dubinsky, Callahan, Del Zotto and maybe even Brodie Dupont because they were team mates on the farm right?

AA adds nothing to this team

First off, you were the one who said Higgins was the better two way player. You said that. Not me. I countered by pointing out they play two different positions. AA being predominantly a center, has more responsibility in the two way game and thus your original point is moot because they are not comparable. Not apples for apples. And all the while AA is a decent two way player. I'm not sure what is so confusing by this. Personal experience has a lot to do with it if you cannot grasp the concept that the center position is different than the wing position in the defensive game in many ways.

Secondly, not at all emotional over AA. He was a good player here. Not great. Good. He is a better player than Santorelli/Winnik imo. Better than some of the other suggested forwards. It likely wont happen anyways because of his cap hit.

Thank you for missing the point about bringing in a face of familiarity. Selective reading. I made the same point about Vermette. When a team is playing well and gelling this well together, if you can bring in a guy the players already know it helps make the addition/adjustment period smoother as you move towards the playoffs. You already know that guys tendencies on the ice and personality off of it. Its why it had taken the PP a little bit to get going when Boyle joined it. Other than MSL, no one knew his tendencies...how he carries the puck up the ice, does he use shoulder/head fakes to shake defenders and open skating lanes, does he drop pass in the neutral zone (which he does to stepan a lot), how does he like to be positioned in the offensive zone when the pp gets set up, how he likes to shoot, etc. All these factors are crucial. Its the non-verbal communication that happens on the ice. Thus the reasoning for entertaining favoring a Vermette or Anisimov. You have so little time from the deadline to the playoffs to adjust as a whole group moving forward. So to say AA adds nothing and/or to not comprehend where myself or boppop are coming from is purely naive. And I cant help if you cant understand the logical points being made.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

for me, its either Vermette (1st option), Santorelli, or we stand pat. face offs is the biggest issue with this team and its a glaring need (see the Boston/Islanders games). You can't really possess the puck all that much, if you never win face offs and dont have it, Vermette would fill that need.

Santorelli would also be an upgrade, but he doesn't really help the face off situations unless he's going to be taken the majority of them from the 3rd line.

 

[NYRangerFan*]

First off, you were the one who said Higgins was the better two way player. You said that. Not me. I countered by pointing out they play two different positions. AA being predominantly a center, has more responsibility in the two way game and thus your original point is moot because they are not comparable. Not apples for apples. And all the while AA is a decent two way player. I'm not sure what is so confusing by this. Personal experience has a lot to do with it if you cannot grasp the concept that the center position is different than the wing position in the defensive game in many ways.

Secondly, not at all emotional over AA. He was a good player here. Not great. Good. He is a better player than Santorelli/Winnik imo. Better than some of the other suggested forwards. It likely wont happen anyways because of his cap hit.

Thank you for missing the point about bringing in a face of familiarity. Selective reading. I made the same point about Vermette. When a team is playing well and gelling this well together, if you can bring in a guy the players already know it helps make the addition/adjustment period smoother as you move towards the playoffs. You already know that guys tendencies on the ice and personality off of it. Its why it had taken the PP a little bit to get going when Boyle joined it. Other than MSL, no one knew his tendencies...how he carries the puck up the ice, does he use shoulder/head fakes to shake defenders and open skating lanes, does he drop pass in the neutral zone (which he does to stepan a lot), how does he like to be positioned in the offensive zone when the pp gets set up, how he likes to shoot, etc. All these factors are crucial. Its the non-verbal communication that happens on the ice. Thus the reasoning for entertaining favoring a Vermette or Anisimov. You have so little time from the deadline to the playoffs to adjust as a whole group moving forward. So to say AA adds nothing and/or to not comprehend where myself or boppop are coming from is purely naive. And I cant help if you cant understand the logical points being made.

I know the position is different but i don't think AA is the guy we need. I think we need some physicality in the bottom 6 and maybe a good defensive center. You keep saying AA knows how to play with our guys but its the system, Torts isn't coaching anymore which is why i said Higgins IF you want to go the ex-ranger route since he played in AVs system and put up decent points. Winger or center doesn't matter to me dude since i don't want neither one of AA or Higgins. The guy i want is Hanzal but thats not realistic. I just don't think AA adds anything we need but thats my opinion.

 

[RGY]

I know the position is different but i don't think AA is the guy we need. I think we need some physicality in the bottom 6 and maybe a good defensive center. You keep saying AA knows how to play with our guys but its the system, Torts isn't coaching anymore which is why i said Higgins IF you want to go the ex-ranger route since he played in AVs system and put up decent points. Winger or center doesn't matter to me dude since i don't want neither one of AA or Higgins. The guy i want is Hanzal but thats not realistic. I just don't think AA adds anything we need but thats my opinion.

This is a much more reasonable response than your last 5 posts. Fair. I can understand this view point. Agree to disagree.

 

[NYRangerFan*]

This is a much more reasonable response than your last 5 posts. Fair. I can understand this view point. Agree to disagree.

Thats fair. If i ran a team and i was GM with a coach like AV, my first thing that i would do is try to bring in a familiar face that he has coached before and feels comfortable with. Not saying Higgins but its just an example. If i look at a guy like Higgins and he has put up 25-40 point seasons under AV, IMO he would be a good add simple because he can play in THAT system with better players, and he was a NYR too but again so he isn't a total stranger but again, just an example.

I like AA and i liked him when we had him but right now, we need our own Stoll or our own Hanzal, or trade for Vermette, Fiddler, Santorelli, etc. We have our top 2 centers in Stepan and Brassard, we need a 3rd line center to bring a different element than they do because i think AA and Brass are a little bit alike. Like i said, my guy is Hanzal

 

[Draft Guru]

When Tortorella moved AA to the wing with Stepan and Nash, he played very well. Very effective on the boards.

Gaborik

 

[Ola]

A couple of things:

-A lot of names mentioned that I wonder if they would crack our top 12. We are a good team with good players. JT Miller would EASILY be a top 6 forward on many teams out there

-We debate going for it now or keep the future. As to Fast, Miller and co, I think there is another dimension to it. Nobody has — in the POs — more potential to do well, and Fast could also grow. So it's not only about now vs future. In reality it is: (i) play it safe with a vet at the cost of a part of our future vs (ii) gambling at the highest reward option and keeping the future.

The kids on the 70s line got LA to the finals and won some games for them there ... If LA deals Toffoli — as was rumored — in a deal for like Kessler it's not a future for now trade, it's potential for a safe option. If we are dealing JT, Fast and co we are doing the same.

The same applies for playing Hayes high up the lineup, ie by not replacing him at that position with a vet.

-Vermette is a bubble, but he is a bit too good for anyone to burst out and puncture once and for all. A few things: Firstly, he will be very expensive. A 1st and a good prospect. For us that translate to like Skjei and Buch/Duke or a player like Hagelin (which to me is very much a lateral move). At least. Secondly, he is good but there is a ton of decent players in this league and Vermette is only one of them.

-Hayes is a bit of a key for us from my POV. Along side Miller and ahead of Fast. They have potential to really step up IF they can take another step.

Can we help Hayes? He has played a lot with Haglin and I don't think CH helps him that much. Hayes works best with a really smart playmaker and more of a 2-way guy. I've been thinking that maybe it might be better to get a bit of playmaking ability to Hayes line, that player could also be good on FOs ...

 

[nyr5186]

I think a trade involving Miller for Vermette has to be explored. I like Miller a lot, but with Nash, Stepan, Kreider, Brassard, MSL and hopefully Zucc filling up the top 6 at least for the next year (and Duclair/Buchnevich in the pipeline), Miller may not get the full opportunity to flourish here in NY. For a young team like Arizona, he may have more value.

In terms of just this year, there is no question trading Miller for Vermette gives us a better shot of winning the Cup. He fills arguably our biggest weakness (faceoffs) and provides another scoring threat to a lineup that already has great depth. He allows Hayes, a rookie who has never played close to the amount of games he's expected to play this year, to take a slight step back but still be an important contributor. I'm picturing a 3rd line of Hagelin-Hayes-Vermette with Vermette taking faceoffs being a ridiculously good possession line. This is a guy who has scored 20 goals in this league four times. He no doubt improves our power play. Winning key draws on the PP can be the difference between winning and losing, especially in the playoffs.

Yes, he may bolt at the end of the year to seek more money elsewhere, but if we win the Cup with him on this team vs. Miller on this team, it doesn't freaking matter. I'm all in on win-now mode. I believe this is our best window to go for it all in over 20 years. If you're not willing to give up Miller and picks for a guy who gives us a great chance to improve our team, then you're not looking at the big picture and you're probably overvaluing Miller a little bit too. Trading Miller would definitely sting. He's a good young player that's just starting to find his way in the NHL. He could turn into a great player who knows. But I just get the sense that it wont be with us. His loss does not kill our farm. I think Duclair and Buchnevich end up better players when all is said and done.

Here's my proposal.

JT Miller and 2nd rounder (becomes 1st rounder if Ranger win the Cup)

for

Antoine Vermette and a conditional 3rd rounder in 2016 if he fails to re-sign with us this summer

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

I think a trade involving Miller for Vermette has to be explored. I like Miller a lot, but with Nash, Stepan, Kreider, Brassard, MSL and hopefully Zucc filling up the top 6 at least for the next year (and Duclair/Buchnevich in the pipeline), Miller may not get the full opportunity to flourish here in NY. For a young team like Arizona, he may have more value.

In terms of just this year, there is no question trading Miller for Vermette gives us a better shot of winning the Cup. He fills arguably our biggest weakness (faceoffs) and provides another scoring threat to a lineup that already has great depth. He allows Hayes, a rookie who has never played close to the amount of games he's expected to play this year, to take a slight step back but still be an important contributor. I'm picturing a 3rd line of Hagelin-Hayes-Vermette with Vermette taking faceoffs being a ridiculously good possession line. This is a guy who has scored 20 goals in this league four times. He no doubt improves our power play. Winning key draws on the PP can be the difference between winning and losing, especially in the playoffs.

Yes, he may bolt at the end of the year to seek more money elsewhere, but if we win the Cup with him on this team vs. Miller on this team, it doesn't freaking matter. I'm all in on win-now mode. I believe this is our best window to go for it all in over 20 years. If you're not willing to give up Miller and picks for a guy who gives us a great chance to improve our team, then you're not looking at the big picture and you're probably overvaluing Miller a little bit too. Trading Miller would definitely sting. He's a good young player that's just starting to find his way in the NHL. He could turn into a great player who knows. But I just get the sense that it wont be with us. His loss does not kill our farm. I think Duclair and Buchnevich end up better players when all is said and done.

Here's my proposal.

JT Miller and 2nd rounder (becomes 1st rounder if Ranger win the Cup)

for

Antoine Vermette and a conditional 3rd rounder in 2016 if he fails to re-sign with us this summer

Thing is, we may not even need to trade Miller to get Vermette. I'd do 2015 both 2nd round picks + McI + Lindberg + Kristo (if we really went all in and wanted Vermette). That's about as all in as I would do. Losing both 2015 2nd round picks in a deep draft would sting, but not as much as losing Miller would.

 

[nyr5186]

Thing is, we may not even need to trade Miller to get Vermette. I'd do 2015 both 2nd round picks + McI + Lindberg + Kristo (if we really went all in and wanted Vermette). That's about as all in as I would do. Losing both 2015 2nd round picks in a deep draft would sting, but not as much as losing Miller would.

Hey if we can get away with trading for vermette without giving up any top prospects or miller, great. I just dont think that gets it done. There are too many teams in the bidding for a good player.

 

[Ola]

I think a trade involving Miller for Vermette has to be explored. I like Miller a lot, but with Nash, Stepan, Kreider, Brassard, MSL and hopefully Zucc filling up the top 6 at least for the next year (and Duclair/Buchnevich in the pipeline), Miller may not get the full opportunity to flourish here in NY. For a young team like Arizona, he may have more value.

In terms of just this year, there is no question trading Miller for Vermette gives us a better shot of winning the Cup. He fills arguably our biggest weakness (faceoffs) and provides another scoring threat to a lineup that already has great depth. He allows Hayes, a rookie who has never played close to the amount of games he's expected to play this year, to take a slight step back but still be an important contributor. I'm picturing a 3rd line of Hagelin-Hayes-Vermette with Vermette taking faceoffs being a ridiculously good possession line. This is a guy who has scored 20 goals in this league four times. He no doubt improves our power play. Winning key draws on the PP can be the difference between winning and losing, especially in the playoffs.

Yes, he may bolt at the end of the year to seek more money elsewhere, but if we win the Cup with him on this team vs. Miller on this team, it doesn't freaking matter. I'm all in on win-now mode. I believe this is our best window to go for it all in over 20 years. If you're not willing to give up Miller and picks for a guy who gives us a great chance to improve our team, then you're not looking at the big picture and you're probably overvaluing Miller a little bit too. Trading Miller would definitely sting. He's a good young player that's just starting to find his way in the NHL. He could turn into a great player who knows. But I just get the sense that it wont be with us. His loss does not kill our farm. I think Duclair and Buchnevich end up better players when all is said and done.

Here's my proposal.

JT Miller and 2nd rounder (becomes 1st rounder if Ranger win the Cup)

for

Antoine Vermette and a conditional 3rd rounder in 2016 if he fails to re-sign with us this summer

Fair points, but you do really give up a lot of futures with this trade... I just want to underline that. JT Miller is a very good prospect/young player. Many notice how much Fast has really improved the last handful of months. There is no reason to not expect Miller to keep improving the comnig years. He is still very young. Vermette is only for a few months, even if we could make room for him I don't think it makes sense to make the moves necessary to squez in a 3rd line C. Those who think otherwise takes a lot of granted from Buchnevich and Duclair...

A 2nd round pick is a 2nd round pick. That pick a lone get you a good prospect or a solid vet at the deadline.

 

[Ola]

Some ideas.

And look, this is not proposals or examples of possible scenarios, its deals that surely never will happen. Think of them as merely examples of "concept" ideas, which I rather would see Sather explore. I mention some concept trades, they are not balanced nor intended to be. I've not spent the time to find balanced matches, its the ideas that I want to to show.

What I want to illustrate is how you could move this team in the right direction by looking at another group of players that we currently are looking at. The reason for this is the following:

1. I -- do -- think, fear, that we will have a hard time contending this year. Players are showing signs of being tired already, McD and Zucc are two examples, and its only January. 5 months of the toughest hockey is left. I am not that keen of going all in right now.

2. I definitely have a feeling that it is perceived that "vets" gives teams an edge in the POs -- while I think in reality, and especially up front, the typical PO vets have been quite ineffective. There are of course examples of vets that has been effective too, but as a rule I think the players that has stepped up and really has made a difference has been players that has brought a lot of energy and talent to teams. Not clutch vets. Anyway, what I am trying to say is that we probably need a big pay-off -- and -- that that pay-off most likely would have to come from Slats picking up a younger player, or even two, about to entering into their prime. Not a soon to be UFA.

3. We probably need more size up front too. A lot is talked about FO ability. How we can move Hayes down the lineup and play him a lot less by getting a smaller vet who is good on FOs. That does make us smaller.

4. There is a year after this season too.

-I don't necessarily see why we would have less chances to contend next year or the year after than this year.

-We are in a very tough spot cap-wise.

You know, it would be darn good if we could make a trade now that also could help us down the road.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So now onto my concept moves, ie that moves that never would happen but that I hope to illustrate my point with of what I would want Slats to look for:

1. JT Miller and Brady Skjei for Mikael Granlund.

Comment: Mikael Granlund has not (yet?) quite broken out for Minny. He is a top notch play-maker, that would help to ease the loss of MSL, and potentially Zucc (???). I would get him to play with Kevin Hayes. Granlund is the same player as Johnny Hockey who Hayes worked so well with, but he is from Finland. We have depth at LD for a long time with McD and Staal, so the loss of Skjei is eased. Granlund will be cheap for a good number of years. Bridgedeal without arb. rights coming up for him. Granlund is very good at FOs.

2. Carl Hagelin, Antony Duclair and our 3rd round pick for Jimmy Hayes and FLA 1st round pick in 15'.

Comment: It will not happen, but in theory a team like Florida might for example look to jump start their evergoing rebuild. They have some big bodies and give up one while adding a -- ton -- of speed. Hags and Duke would compliment Bjugstad, Huberdeau and Barkov well down the road. We add size. And re-fills the farm a bit. Jimmy Hayes doesn't have the high end skill of his brother, but he is more rugged -- and at 6'6 that would really help us -- he is a right hand shot and he goes real hard to the net. Jimmy Hayes is real cheap, and is due for a bridge deal without arb. rights.

3. Stemp for a FO vet.

Zucc-Brass-Nash//I like that Nash is building a relationship with two really skilled players. He will not get younger and need to build his game more around chemistry with his line-mates than raw ability. That is also the -- only -- thing that will work against the toughest match-ups of the best teams in the POs.
Kreider-Step-MSL//Kreider and MSL will play their best hockey in the POs.
Mi. Granlund-Kevin Hayes-Jimmy Hayes//Kevin Hayes and Granlund would move the puck around real well. Granlund would help out a lot on FOs. Jimmy Hayes would really add to the size department of this team.
*FO vet*/Glass-Moore-Fast

This is a team that not only could be kept together next year, but have room to improve. Not only that, it has potential to really grow together. It has more size.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

I don't know how you can call AA soft but imply Higgins isn't.

If I had to choose I'd much rather AA. Higgins isn't good really.

Higgins is better at everything than AA.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Trade Hagelin for Sekera straight up. Hagelin is perfect for Carolina. Add a guy like Nieves or Tambellini only if another team is offering a high pick.

Trade Moore and a 2016 3rd for Santorelli. Add a 2015 5th if they take Glass.

Nash-Brassard-Zucc
Kreider-Stepan-MSL
Miller-Santorelli-Hayes
Fast-Moore-Stempniak

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Boyle
Sekera-Klein.

1) Hagelin for Miller is lateral at worst. Miller has higher upside and finally gets a solidified spot

2) Santorelli doesn't cost you as much as Vermette would. The Leafs can pick either Allen, Hunwick or McIlrath if they're not into Moore.

3) Sekera gives them the best defense in the league.

4) trading Hagelin's likely hit (and hopefully Glass's) with the expected bump in cap should be enough to give both Stepan and MSL what they want. If MSL retires if they win a Cup, use the money on Zucc. But Zucc will get 6 million from somebody.

5) before you cry over Hagelin, realize that one of Miller, Duclair or Buchnevich will replace him next year and beyond.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Do not trade a 2016 first or any of the first four picks this year.

Do not trade Miller. Do not trade Skjei.

The Rangers don't need to do anything. They're not struggling.

Let the desperate teams cough up their future for these guys. Make offers, but don't make moves for the sake of making them.

Win-win deadline as long as they don't trade high picks or top young players.

 

[Ola]

GWOW- Not sure I like the asset management. When it matters, Staal and McD should take up just south of 50 minutes of the time we have a left defensemen on the ice. I just don't see the need for giving up Hagelin to get another left defensemen...