Salary Cap: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster building / proposal thread Part V

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bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
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Da Big Apple
Bern, I'm sure you are a great guy and all, but from all my years I've spent reading on this forum, very rarely have I ever seen you post a proposal that makes any sense at all. Not trying to be a dick but where do you come up with this stuff?

We simply agree to disagree.

While it is not 100% slam dunk, there was generally favorable reaction from both sides to Kadri for Girardi + small + (Kristo); another version of this had us doing Leafs a solid by expanding to something like Bourque (either/both) cap dump Carter Ashton (who we'd flip, presumably to Oilers).

That IS a deal that DOES make sense.
a lot of others do to.

But you don't want to accept them, because it means going beyond conventional wisdom.
Conventional wisdom says Stepan is part of the solution.
That is one possible scenario.
I never said Stepan 111% can not and will not work.

Where I am unapologetic and must respond in kind, is to say, not to be a jerk either, but people are close minded about doing better than some of the guys we have, esp. if they are fan favorites, eg Stepan.

Other possible scenarios have Stepan moved.

I olive branch to you as to how big a profit we can get for Stepan and which if any such scenarios are worth it.

But I challenge you and anybody else who does not want to have an open mind and explore the question.

best
bernmeister
 

BleedinBLUEsince92

Registered User
Oct 30, 2009
653
102
Northern NJ
We simply agree to disagree.

While it is not 100% slam dunk, there was generally favorable reaction from both sides to Kadri for Girardi + small + (Kristo); another version of this had us doing Leafs a solid by expanding to something like Bourque (either/both) cap dump Carter Ashton (who we'd flip, presumably to Oilers).

That IS a deal that DOES make sense.
a lot of others do to.

But you don't want to accept them, because it means going beyond conventional wisdom.
Conventional wisdom says Stepan is part of the solution.
That is one possible scenario.
I never said Stepan 111% can not and will not work.

Where I am unapologetic and must respond in kind, is to say, not to be a jerk either, but people are close minded about doing better than some of the guys we have, esp. if they are fan favorites, eg Stepan.

Other possible scenarios have Stepan moved.

I olive branch to you as to how big a profit we can get for Stepan and which if any such scenarios are worth it.

But I challenge you and anybody else who does not want to have an open mind and explore the question.

best
bernmeister

This isn't about agreeing to disagree or being open minded. Frankly your trade proposals are delusional. Girardi would be one of the last players even thought of being used in a trade. He just signed a new contract with a no move clause. What even gives you the idea that the Leafs want to trade Kadri? Even if they did why would they trade their young center for a defenseman? Who would play center now for the Leafs after they trade one for a stay at home defenseman? Stepan hasn't proven to be a 1st line center yet but how can you say that he's part of the problem lol? It's clear as day our biggest weakness is center depth and your plan is to trade away our best center. That doesn't solve the fact that Brassard may not be capable of being the greatest 2nd line center nor the fact that Miller can't be our 3rd line center let alone even belong in the NHL at this point. Your proposals aren't open minded. In reality they lack anything tangible and would only happen if you're playing NHL 15.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
27,692
3,719
Da Big Apple

This isn't about agreeing to disagree or being open minded. Frankly your trade proposals are delusional.
Tell us how you REALLY feel.:laugh:

Girardi would be one of the last players even thought of being used in a trade.
Objectively, his expense v. production suggests he should be moved as soon as there is a good deal. We need to go younger, cheaper. Not a hard concept to understand. This is a cap driven situation. A discounted Girardi we should still examine if a better fit for AVs system; but a full priced one has to go.


He just signed a new contract with a no move clause.
And you notice since he signed it I have not suggested trading him here there and everywhere, only to a place he might consider.
I'd like to move Dan Boyle, too, but we are really stuck w/him for the next 2 years.

What even gives you the idea that the Leafs want to trade Kadri?
That was discussed at the boards. I believe it is fair to say they are not looking to give him the bum's rush out the door, but I don't see they are inflexible about moving him for a good return either.

Even if they did why would they trade their young center for a defenseman?
G is a better defensive D and cheaper than Phaneuf. They likely move him to Edmonton.

Who would play center now for the Leafs after they trade one for a stay at home defenseman?
They have options, including possibly part of what is returned for Phaneuf.

Stepan hasn't proven to be a 1st line center yet but how can you say that he's part of the problem lol?
Up until now Stepan has been worth his pay. However, he will be RFA and command at least 6.5m next year. Is that the best use of $6.5 m.
No it is not. So either you get more in return for Stepan NOW or use Stepan this season and get less for him later. I'll take the max return.
No lol. It's an opinion. We are entitled our own and to disagree.

It's clear as day our biggest weakness is center depth and your plan is to trade away our best center.
Some of my scenarios would trade for an immediate upgrade a la RyJo.
Some would trade for a potential near term upgrade who better fits AV system a la Schiefle
Some of my scenarios do further weaken C, I admit, but gain a significant upgrade that makes the overall deal worth it, a la JVR or a Seth Jones.
The common ingredient there is an effort to improve the club.

What is as clear as day, is that you ignore that we need not just better C, but Cs big enough and strong enough to go up vs Getzlaf types. Hayes is not there yet, but if tutored throughout the year, he could be helpful enough to defray such an advantage. Then we need at least one other.

That doesn't solve the fact that Brassard may not be capable of being the greatest 2nd line center ...
I'm not married to Brassard either. Let's be open minded about multiple moves to improve the club more, not less.

...nor the fact that Miller can't be our 3rd line center let alone even belong in the NHL at this point.
Miller has often looked good enough to show why he was 15th overall. However, AV is STILL experimenting; this has had even the vets lost in spots.
Time to settle lines:
Kreider - Hayes - Nash
Hagelin - Miller - MSL

Your proposals aren't open minded.
Yes, they are, the are more open minded than close minded suggestions from those among us who would never move a favorite player until it is too late.

In reality they lack anything tangible
Your inaccurate opinion. To go the extra yard and think, for example, why Girardi to Leafs, when an NTC would likely stop most other moves at sq. 1, is tangible in the sense that it is specific.

...and would only happen if you're playing NHL 15.
never did one of those in my life. :amazed::amazed:
 

haveandare

Registered User
Jul 2, 2009
18,924
7,453
New York
...

Objectively, his expense v. production suggests he should be moved as soon as there is a good deal. We need to go younger, cheaper. Not a hard concept to understand. This is a cap driven situation. A discounted Girardi we should still examine if a better fit for AVs system; but a full priced one has to go.

And you notice since he signed it I have not suggested trading him here there and everywhere, only to a place he might consider.
I'd like to move Dan Boyle, too, but we are really stuck w/him for the next 2 years.

...

Is he really the kind of player you judge based on production though? He's as obvious a defensive d as there is IMO. The team needs to get younger and cheaper yes, but I don't think many teams are thinking of trading their top lines or top pairing to do that. Top guys become top guys because teams like something about them. I think this team likes having a strictly defensive compliment to McD and likes having a top pair that knows each other well. If they want to make cap room, they can move Klein, who is a third pairing d-man on a big contract.

Also, I really don't think Girardi would be open to going to the disaster that is the Maple Leafs. He just, just barely missed out on a championship last year. I'd bet that he's hungry to win, not to move in the opposite direction. I get that he was a fan or grew up there or whatever, but business is business. He's not a young guy, and I'm sure he wants to win. If its the same money and all, why would he want to go to a worse team at this point in his career?
 

Zuccarello Awesome*

Guest
Is he really the kind of player you judge based on production though? He's as obvious a defensive d as there is IMO. The team needs to get younger and cheaper yes, but I don't think many teams are thinking of trading their top lines or top pairing to do that. Top guys become top guys because teams like something about them. I think this team likes having a strictly defensive compliment to McD and likes having a top pair that knows each other well. If they want to make cap room, they can move Klein, who is a third pairing d-man on a big contract.

Also, I really don't think Girardi would be open to going to the disaster that is the Maple Leafs. He just, just barely missed out on a championship last year. I'd bet that he's hungry to win, not to move in the opposite direction. I get that he was a fan or grew up there or whatever, but business is business. He's not a young guy, and I'm sure he wants to win. If its the same money and all, why would he want to go to a worse team at this point in his career?

The Leafs just beat us 6-3!! They're a powerhouse!! Go there, Girardi! :P
 

Brooklyn Rangers Fan

Change is good.
Aug 23, 2005
19,237
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Brooklyn & Upstate
Okay, the one upside to the ****show we've seen over the last three games is that it's pretty much separated the wheat from the chaff. No more excuses for the silliness with MSL at center or Kostka/Hunwick getting a regular shift. And Malone showed enough to take Glass's spot.

Kreider-Brassard-Nash
Duclair-Hayes-MSL
Hagelin-Miller-Zuccarello
Malone-Moore-Stempniak

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-McIlrath/Allen
Moore-Klein

Do it, AV. Do it now.
 

BarbaraAlphanse

Guest
Okay, the one upside to the ****show we've seen over the last three games is that it's pretty much separated the wheat from the chaff. No more excuses for the silliness with MSL at center or Kostka/Hunwick getting a regular shift. And Malone showed enough to take Glass's spot.

Kreider-Brassard-Nash
Duclair-Hayes-MSL
Hagelin-Miller-Zuccarello
Malone-Moore-Stempniak

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-McIlrath/Allen
Moore-Klein

Do it, AV. Do it now.

Please stop making sense.
 

Brooklyn Rangers Fan

Change is good.
Aug 23, 2005
19,237
8,238
Brooklyn & Upstate
Please stop making sense.

Hahahaha. Sorry, man!

And further to my lineup above, if AV doesn't trust Miller at center, then **** it, send him down and call up either Lindberg (2 goals in HFD's first game and certainly responsible defensively) or Mueller.

Injuries are supposed to give kids an opportunity to prove themselves. So far, Hayes and Duclair have looked just fine. If we're not getting the results we need from the guys currently on the squad, let's give some other yutes the chance to do the same.
 

BarbaraAlphanse

Guest
Hahahaha. Sorry, man!

And further to my lineup above, if AV doesn't trust Miller at center, then **** it, send him down and call up either Lindberg (2 goals in HFD's first game and certainly responsible defensively) or Mueller.

Injuries are supposed to give kids an opportunity to prove themselves. So far, Hayes and Duclair have looked just fine. If we're not getting the results we need from the guys currently on the squad, let's give some other yutes the chance to do the same.

The root of our problem right now is our defense. The second in command is our lack of offensive balance.

This needs to change ASAP.
 
Dec 9, 2009
9,721
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Allen should have been here when Boyle went down.

Seemed like they rather have gone with the veteran with little talent vs a kid with less experience but more talent.
 

Bleed Ranger Blue

Registered User
Jul 18, 2006
19,799
1,811
Okay, the one upside to the ****show we've seen over the last three games is that it's pretty much separated the wheat from the chaff. No more excuses for the silliness with MSL at center or Kostka/Hunwick getting a regular shift. And Malone showed enough to take Glass's spot.

Kreider-Brassard-Nash
Duclair-Hayes-MSL
Hagelin-Miller-Zuccarello
Malone-Moore-Stempniak

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-McIlrath/Allen
Moore-Klein

Do it, AV. Do it now.

Kostka and Hunwick beat out Allen and McIlrath in camp, so forgive me if I think thats any sort of realistic answer.

The Rangers might have to go outside of the organization to solve this issue while Boyle is out.
 

The Undertaker

Registered User
Jun 22, 2012
2,384
117
Okay, the one upside to the ****show we've seen over the last three games is that it's pretty much separated the wheat from the chaff. No more excuses for the silliness with MSL at center or Kostka/Hunwick getting a regular shift. And Malone showed enough to take Glass's spot.

Kreider-Brassard-Nash
Duclair-Hayes-MSL
Hagelin-Miller-Zuccarello
Malone-Moore-Stempniak

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-McIlrath/Allen
Moore-Klein

Do it, AV. Do it now.

Completely agree with all of this
 

Doctyl

Play-ins Manager
Jan 25, 2011
23,267
7,047
Bofflol
Up until now Stepan has been worth his pay. However, he will be RFA and command at least 6.5m next year. Is that the best use of $6.5 m.
No it is not. So either you get more in return for Stepan NOW or use Stepan this season and get less for him later. I'll take the max return.
No lol. It's an opinion. We are entitled our own and to disagree.

are you watching this abortion of a hockey team? I cant think of a better way than to spend 6.5 mill. You want Miller or Hayes on our first or second line? Watch the games. Miller has not looked very good at all. We need Stepan and I dont see how anyone can even begin to debate that.
 

Brooklyn Rangers Fan

Change is good.
Aug 23, 2005
19,237
8,238
Brooklyn & Upstate
Kostka and Hunwick beat out Allen and McIlrath in camp, so forgive me if I think thats any sort of realistic answer.

The Rangers might have to go outside of the organization to solve this issue while Boyle is out.

C'mon, BRB, that's not true. Neither Allen nor McIlrath was ever going to stick as the 7th D. The organization wants them playing - and therefore their odds of making the team out of camp were long (much longer than Kampfer, Hunwick or Kostka who IMO were brought in precisely to fight for the seventh spot) from the outset. It was basically beat out Moore/Klein or get sent down and eat minutes on the top pair in HFD.
 

Brooklyn Ranger

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
9,462
298
Brooklyn, of course
C'mon, BRB, that's not true. Neither Allen nor McIlrath was ever going to stick as the 7th D. The organization wants them playing - and therefore their odds of making the team out of camp were long (much longer than Kampfer, Hunwick or Kostka who IMO were brought in precisely to fight for the seventh spot) from the outset. It was basically beat out Moore/Klein or get sent down and eat minutes on the top pair in HFD.

I'm not sure that having a rookie defenseman in the lineup is going to help. This group of players (who are not deserving the title of team) is having massive problems controlling the puck in the defensive zone, much less getting out of there.

I'm not really sure what the solution should be.
 

theFiGS

Registered User
Oct 13, 2013
1,923
108
Mcilrath needs his shot with Boyle sidelined. Let him clear the front of the net because our dmen are leaving hank out to dry and not clearing the net for him. Let Mcilrath come in and beat on other teams with somewhat limited minutes, he CANT be worse than kostka because he's ****ing terrible. This team needs to wake up because we have a tough divison.
Penguins
Capitals
Islanders
Blue jackets
Devils

It'll be sad if we finish 5th or 6th in our divison after the season we had last season
 

Brooklyn Rangers Fan

Change is good.
Aug 23, 2005
19,237
8,238
Brooklyn & Upstate
I'm not sure that having a rookie defenseman in the lineup is going to help. This group of players (who are not deserving the title of team) is having massive problems controlling the puck in the defensive zone, much less getting out of there.

I'm not really sure what the solution should be.

I genuinely think that Allen or McIlrath would do fine - or at least better than what we've seen - as a stopgap until Boyle returns. I know that Allen didn't step up and perform in camp, but we've already seen him play competent defense in his first go-round last year and I saw a lot of good things during the AHL games I watched. Meanwhile, McIlrath, while still working on some key issues at least brings some potentially difference-making attributes. Either would be better than the guys they've tried so far.

And if they don't agree, then send Danny Kristo or Ryan Bourque somewhere for another 6th/7th guy.
 

Rick Nash 61

The Best
Jul 6, 2014
2,596
14
New York
I will probably get flamed for this but.. Is there a chance we can Obtain Eric Staal for... Derick Brassard, JT Miller, and two second round picks?

Lineup (w/ step)

Kreider-E Staal-Nash
Duclair-Stepan-St. Louis
Hagelin-Hayes-Zucc
Malone-D Moore-Stempniak

Tell me that doesn't look awesome.
 

Vinny DeAngelo

Jimmy Easy to defend
Mar 17, 2014
13,983
4,573
florida
I when stepan comes back our forwards lines will look like:
Kreider-Stepan-MSL
Duclair-brassard-Nash
Hagelin-Hayes-Zuccarello
Glass-Moore-Malone

And that's about the best tht we can be.. We're stuck in a bad cap situation so no massive trade is going to work without losing significant depth or futures
 

Doctyl

Play-ins Manager
Jan 25, 2011
23,267
7,047
Bofflol
I will probably get flamed for this but.. Is there a chance we can Obtain Eric Staal for... Derick Brassard, JT Miller, and two second round picks?

Lineup (w/ step)

Kreider-E Staal-Nash
Duclair-Stepan-St. Louis
Hagelin-Hayes-Zucc
Malone-D Moore-Stempniak

Tell me that doesn't look awesome.

Kreider-Hayes-Nash
Duclair-Moore-MSL
Hagelin-Lindberg-Zucc
Glass-Malone-Stempniak

That's probably what we're looking at if we make the trade right now. Those lines flat out suck
 
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