2014 - 2015 Coyotes Roster Part 6

[MIGs Dog]

Basically the odds are increasingly likely that we end up in exactly the same position next off season..

Many UFAs next offseason. At this point I would only look to sign Bods. For me, Vermette is on the bubble as to whether or not I would try and keep him. For everyone else something significant would have to occur for me to consider trying to retain them.

I'm not throwing in the towel on this season, but next years team has the potential to look significantly different.

 

[Desert Ice 11]

Tippett is a top 5 coach in the NHL. He'd be unemployed less than a week. I just don't know that he is the right coach for this organization at this time. We don't have the veteran talent for a Tippett playoff team right now. We saw that the last two years. If we're not going to add young talent, and we can't afford to add veteran talent we're just spinning our wheels with Tippett at the helm. This franchise will not thrive with a "zero development" stance on NHL ice for young players. Could the 90's Detroit teams survive? Yes, they had an unlimited budget and would just sign free agents and trade all their youth for veteran help. It is a brilliant way to run if you can afford it. It also helps that dynastic approach was pre-cap. Since then they've been good, but not great.

GMDM did a great job for quite some time picking through the reclamation bin hunting for bargains. He has not done a good job managing his head coach or the development of our young players. How much of this is bowing to Tippett's opinion and how much Maloney is on the page I do not know. It's also possible that Maloney wanted more kids on the roster and would have done it if he could afford it. Only the owners and the bean counters know that. I'm sure the owners will weigh that in their decision to keep him/them or go a different direction.

But they are developed and NHL ready. GMDM even said that himself and said that they just need to wait for opportunity. So all these comparisons to Edmonton are stupid because these young players put time in the lower leagues.

Where would Tippet go? There has to be an open position for him to get a job and as far I can see there are none.

 

[WJF]

We are 2-2 after 4 games. Looking at the schedule before hand, this is what I would have expected. If you guys expected any better after 4 games, your expectations were a lot higher than mine. Stay off ledges.

If Gormley wants out, so what, he has zero leverage. If we can make a good trade, we should trade him because it makes sense, not because he is complaining. We don't know that he wants out or is complaining. I am not against trading him because I suspect he will be a bottom pairing D with 3-4 upside. We should trade him if some team thinks he can still be a top pairing D. If he was that good, next OEL, or could be that good, how did he not beat out one of our world beaters, Schlemko/Summers/Murphy? He is not 18 or 19, he is 22, so his development is slow, if you think he is going to be a stud number 1 D.

I for one am glad that DM (he is not MacT) does not force Tip (he is not Eakins) to play young guys, it never works. Hopefully the new owner has some money to spend, because that is what we really need, more established players, not rookies.

The best thing any manager can do is realize when they have made a mistake and correct it. Ribs was a mistake but we got rid of him quickly rather then trying to defend the signing to ownership. Same thing with Lombardi and Sullivan.

DM and Tip are highly regarded and would be out of a job for 24 hours or less if they get fired. Dm has had a limited budget and mostly makes prudent decisions. He has not been fleeced on a trade. If you guys think we should fire DM, fire Tip, and play all the young guys, we will be the Oilers, and maybe go 5+ years before we sniff the playoffs again. Remember, we missed by 2 points last year, we were close.

We have Doan, Boekder, Vermette, Hanzal to inject youth around. Oilers don't have that luxury. Nobody is suggesting we bring in 5 18-year-olds to play. One or two 19 or 20-year old players would be nice. Other teams do this as well.

 

[_Del_]

Where would Tippet go? There has to be an open position for him to get a job and as far I can see there are none.

Someone would fire their coach to hire him.

 

[SniperHF]

Many UFAs next offseason. At this point I would only look to sign Bods. For me, Vermette is on the bubble as to whether or not I would try and keep him. For everyone else something significant would have to occur for me to consider trying to retain them.

I'm not throwing in the towel on this season, but next years team has the potential to look significantly different.

I don't think that buys us much. You won't get a player of Vermette's caliber for 3.75 with his UFA money freed up. Z is a UFA and our right side depth sucks. Fayne, originally thought of as a possible cheap option got 3.6aav last season. D are gonna be expensive. At this rate Boedker will get a sizable raise in addition to OEL's baked in raise.

So it really comes down to Erat, Moss, Klink, Schlemko, Crombeen going out the door.

Capgeek + my math says this season we are paying:
$55.8m Real dollars.

Next season we are on the hook for $40.9.
Boedker gets 4.35 to take him to UFA.
Another backup goalie for 1.
McMillan plays well and earns another RFA deal for 1.25.
So we have 47.5 committed.
Leaving us 8.3 million to replace a top 4 D and a solid #2 center.
Assuming we do absolutely nothing else.

Factor in a budget increase and lets make it 10.5m to spend. David Bolland got 5.5, Mike Cammalleri and Mikhail Grabovski got 5. If Vermette plays pretty close to the way he did last season he is gonna get paid. 6 is not impossible and 5.5 is almost a lock.

So that leaves us 5m to spend on the conservative end for another D. Lets say we bring Z back at a reduced salary of 2M.

Now we have 3 million bucks + prospects to replace Erat, Moss, Klink, Schlemko, Crombeen. Keep in mind that my entire premise was that our prospects are not in any way guaranteed to be any more ready next season then they are now. So what we are left with is this:

Mikkel Boedker / Antoine Vermette / Shane Doan
Lauri Korpikoski / Martin Hanzal / Kyle Chipchura
Brandon McMillan / Sam Gagner / ????
???........?????? /Joe Vitale / ???

DEFENSEMEN
Oliver Ekman-Larsson / Zbynek Michalek
Keith Yandle / Michael Stone
Chris Summers / Connor Murphy
???

GOALTENDERS
Mike Smith
Devan Dubnyk


So even if you went all kids on the remaining forward spots, does that roster really look much better? Even with another year of AHL time, are Lessio, Reider, and Gormley(if he's even here) gonna any more proven to be inserted into those slots? Domi after an unnecessary year in Junior? Maybe Samuelsson will gain from a year in the A.

And this is even assuming we actually retain Vermette or can sign someone comparable. There's always the chance we can't land one.

So yes I agree it could look much different. But different within the same budgetary constraints + youth that is no more proven is still basically the same situation to me.

 

[rt]

Great post Sniper. Really makes one think.

If we don't get these kids some reps this season, we are doomed next season as well.

There are only two things that can alter this reality; Mac and Jack.

Someone would fire their coach to hire him.

I'm sure this is true. It wouldn't happen right away, though.

Anyway, Maloney isn't going to fire Tippett. They're going to have to be fired at the same time. LeBlanc, Gosbee and Co. aren't going to be firing Tippett and Maloney. Maybe Barroway will. But probably not until they've officially missed the playoffs for a third straight year. I wouldn't expect a thing until the team is mathematically eliminated. That's the soonest I could see Regier appointed interim GM and Brown interim HC.

 

[DomiToDuclair]

I would try to go after N. Foligno if he doesn't re-sign before UFA starts, Tlusty, Frolik, Zucca possibly, maybe Galiardi too, possibly Stempniak, and possibly Jagr (lolyeahright) would interest me the most...after that maybe giving Skille a flyer wouldn't hurt.

I like Michalek, but I think he's to expensive for what he does.

I would be fine with retaining Vermette...but for 5.5+ I'm not sure I really would want to.

Try some of our current d prospects on the right side in sheltered minutes and see how they do, or sign someone like Pardy, who is still probably better than our bottom pairing.

Give Gormley/Murphy some actual playing time in the NHL last year once we "lose" Schlemko though. Honestly if it's just another year with us re-signing a bunch of old vets to take the places of our prospects, i'll be extremely disappointed. Tippett is really starting to grind on me.

Also as much as it would be great to get McDavid/Eichel for the franchise, this draft class should be amazing, and even if we don't get one of the superstars because we're stuck in that perpetual 9-12 spot, we should still get an excellent player that would be the envy of many other franchises in other years.

And hopefully he'll stay with the team too...

 

[MIGs Dog]

David Bolland got 5.5

Over-payment of the year right there.

But different within the same budgetary constraints

Hoping the new owner loosens up the purse strings.

 

[rt]

Hoping the new owner loosens up the purse strings.

He factored in a more than two million dollar increase. Also, overpayments get more dramatic every summer until a lock out. They don't get less so until we've lost at least half of a season.

 

[XX]

So yes I agree it could look much different. But different within the same budgetary constraints + youth that is no more proven is still basically the same situation to me.

Youth is cheaper with more upside.

Doan - Vermette (5.75) - Boedker - (5)
Domi - Gagner - ???????
Lessio - Hanzal - Samuelsson
McMillan - Vitale - Rieder

OEL - ???????
Yandle - Murphy
Gormley - Stone
Summers

That lineup is basically 50 million. I figure the budget will be 60. You can't sign a RD and a winger for that?

 

[rt]

Youth is cheaper with more upside.



That lineup is basically 50 million. I figure the budget will be 60. You can't sign a RD and a winger for that?

He put us at 58. I think that's reasonable. Also, illustrates why we didn't bring Vrbata back.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Right now, the players that are in Portland are there b/c they have 2-way contracts, and that alone is the reason. If they are a shade better than the player currently on the roster who has their spot (Schlemko for Gormley, Moss for Hodgman, etc.), the leverage that we have with the 2-way contract is what gets them sent down.

It sucks, b/c to be honest that is what is forcing the complacency in the first place. If you are on a 1-way contract, you know that there is one way for you to be replaced on the roster, and that is via trade. Tip comes from a background where you come in ready to play, and that is also our biggest downfall. Let's say that we are one of 2 teams who are prepared to strike a deal with another team for a forward. One of the pieces that we have to give up is Gormley. The other team involved, for argument's sake is Montreal, and they have to give up Tinordi in the same deal. That other team is likely to make the deal with Montreal, simply b/c Tinordi has seen more NHL time, and his trajectory is greater at that moment. Even trying to acquire players who can help us at the NHL level is hard b/c every shift/minute/game that a player like Gormley who could/should be in the top 6 doesn't play, his value decreases.

One last thing in all of this - it sounded like Doan was saying that the players need to step up (once again). This is actually what scares me the most about this team and its future overall. Arguably, there is not a better captain in the NHL, and a huge set of shoes to fill for whomever does so. I am not expecting the next captain to be Shane Doan. But I am expecting them to be a leader that gets the players to react in the best ways. Since re-signing with the team, I feel like there is a slight leadership void - almost as if no one wants to be the guy to replace Doan. We can say that Yandle or Hanzal will be the next one up, but honestly, that seems more like they are the next guy up by default, not b/c they can collectively manage to bring a voice to the team without alienating others, etc. For a team that has much better chemistry, per Tip and DM, I still feel like outside of Doan, there is no leadership from the people that could/should be stepping that up. Doan won't be around forever, and we can't wait for him to leave before someone shows that they can transition to that role...

 

[rt]

If Gagner can put up 40+ pts and Hanzal can play 70+ games, I think we can feel more comfortable replacing Vermette with a 30-35pt PK C. I feel like 45-50pts PK Cs like Vermette command about 100kay per point, while a 30-35pt PK C usually only runs about 750kay/pt. It's better value, but you really need to be able to count on Hanzal and Gagner in that scenario.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

Marty is unreliable for a full 82-game schedule and we are already thin down the middle, extremely thin down the middle given Tipp's unwillingness to inject more youth.

Vermette has to be resigned, just not at an unreasonable amount. Also, given how most of us feel the season will play out, he's got to be moved at the 'deadline' for a pick.

We can resign him in the off-season.

 

[rt]

Voting suspended indefinitely for domestic violence accusations.

Kings Blueline in serious doo doo.

Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris 3m3 minutes ago
Suspended NHL players count against the salary cap. The #LAKings now have less than $500,000 in free space with six active defencemen.

Gormley for Toffoli? Please? Cmon Don!

 

[ck26]

If Gormley wants out, so what, he has zero leverage. If we can make a good trade, we should trade him because it makes sense, not because he is complaining. We don't know that he wants out or is complaining. I am not against trading him because I suspect he will be a bottom pairing D with 3-4 upside. We should trade him if some team thinks he can still be a top pairing D. If he was that good, next OEL, or could be that good, how did he not beat out one of our world beaters, Schlemko/Summers/Murphy? He is not 18 or 19, he is 22, so his development is slow, if you think he is going to be a stud number 1 D.

That's awful asset management. And a great way to ensure he'll play hardball on RFA negotiations. And he'll want out as soon as possible. I have no reason to accuse Gormley of being Turris, he's currently on the last year of his ELC ... we've burned all 3 of his cheap years and we're going into the RFA renewal years with a pissed off player.

The problem isn't this year. The problem is next year. If we agree that Schlemko and Summers are unlikely to grow into serious top 4 / top 2 defensemen and that Gormley has a chance to, look at next year's contract situation:
OEL, Yandle, Murphy, Summers and Stone are here.
Michalek and Schlemko are maybe not.

Next year is Michalek's last best chance for a big contract, so I can see someone money-whipping him a la Boyd Gordon. If we don't have Michalek next season, we're either splashing out big money (and multiple years) to replace him or we're playing with either Summers or Schlemko in the top 4. *gulp*

We can't throw Gormley into top 4 minutes in his first year as an NHL'er, so our options are:
a) Give Gormley a 50+ game tryout this year and let him take off his NHL diapers and play real minutes next year.
b) Sign Michalek or a replacement and give Gormley his NHL tryout next year.

Scenario B seems like a good way to piss off Gormley and to ensure we won't have any money to pay Yandle when HE comes due.

DM and Tip are highly regarded and would be out of a job for 24 hours or less if they get fired. Dm has had a limited budget and mostly makes prudent decisions. He has not been fleeced on a trade. If you guys think we should fire DM, fire Tip, and play all the young guys, we will be the Oilers, and maybe go 5+ years before we sniff the playoffs again. Remember, we missed by 2 points last year, we were close.

During cross-examination, you're going to have a tough time finding evidence to support this claim. Trading is a small part of what GM's do, and DM's ability to squeeze juice out of rocks isn't as important to GM'ing for a team with money. Frankly, maximizing the value of your cost-controlled players seems like a HUGE part of GM'ing for a team that doesn't have any money, and DM's record in that department is underwhelming.

 

[Sciamachy]

Marty is unreliable for a full 82-game schedule and we are already thin down the middle, extremely thin down the middle given Tipp's unwillingness to inject more youth.

Vermette has to be resigned, just not at an unreasonable amount. Also, given how most of us feel the season will play out, he's got to be moved at the 'deadline' for a pick.

We can resign him in the off-season.

If we miss the playoffs I doubt Vermette comes back. Pretty sure I recall him saying that how the team fairs this year will factor into his contract negotiations and that at his age he needs to think about winning a cup.

 

[rt]

Voting suspended indefinitely for domestic violence accusations.

Kings Blueline in serious doo doo.

Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris 3m3 minutes ago
Suspended NHL players count against the salary cap. The #LAKings now have less than $500,000 in free space with six active defencemen.

Gormley for Toffoli? Please? Cmon Don!

Though, I think we'd need to add. Gormley+2nd for Toffoli?

 

[YandlesMother]

Though, I think we'd need to add. Gormley+2nd for Toffoli?

Yes to a deal that gets us Toffoli all day every day.

EDIT: Removed inflammatory comment about kings posters.

 

[cobra427]

Dm has signed Hanzal/OEL/Bods/Yandle to good deals, so I am not sure how he has mishandled our only good young players. Wheeler and Turris wanted out, nothing we could do about that, other than to play them and pay them huge money(Oiler model with all new toys).

As for playing and developing young guys, Tip played OEL at 19, he was our number 1 D. Tip will play you if you earn it, and he beat out a bunch of vets to be the number 1 D. If young guys deserve it, they will play, it is that simple. The gap between the AHL and NHL is huge.

Tip's reasons below:

1. Young guys are not good enough yet, still have to earn it.
2. With 2 way contracts it is cheaper to play vets on 1 ways.
3. Tip just plays vets and does not care to play rookies.

You guys think Tip is number 3, I think he is number 1, but number 2 might be playing a roll. With a new owner, if he opens up the purse strings, it will be easy for Tip to demote guys on one way contracts, then we will see what he does. If Tip's hand is being forced right now with one way/two way issues, we might find out shortly.

Yes, DM said he wanted to get younger. Verby/DMO/Halpern/klesla/Ribs are gone. In are Vitale/Murphy/Summers/Gagner. We got younger. DM did not say we are going to play all 21 year olds from the AHL, never said that. He said we would get younger, and we did.

Replacing Tip and telling a new coach to play young guys is a mistake. It took Dallas over 5 years to recover after they fired Tip for supposedly not playing young guys. How did that work out for Dallas and how is it working for Edmonton? DM can't micro manage Tip and tell him who he has to play or mandate that he plays 2 guys 21 and under on the roster at all times.

If you philosophically disagree with your GM as an owner, or your coach as a GM, then you have to make a change. I think, given the roster and financial constraints, that both have done a good job overall and I totally disagree with the "playing the young guys" as the solution, short term or long term. I am sure my experience( I'm old) in managing people/playing/coaching plays a roll in my thought process.

My opinion is that we have a top 10 coach, top 10 GM, and bottom 10 budget. The budget constraints dictate decisions so we have to figure out how to do more with less. I would take better management over more money any day, because at the end of the say, poor management never wins, in any business (Toronto).

 

[doaner]

Would we really want to move him to a rival?

 

[Jamieh]

I'm not going to go to bat for GMDM but will really question the love for Regier on here?? Have you guys not watched Buffalo for last half dozen years? We have finished ahead of them in standings for years with a no owner team with limited payroll and a lesser goalie. That team is in shambles and has been for years. How can we trumpet their leader to be our savior??

 

[Jakey53]

Dm has signed Hanzal/OEL/Bods/Yandle to good deals, so I am not sure how he has mishandled our only good young players. Wheeler and Turris wanted out, nothing we could do about that, other than to play them and pay them huge money(Oiler model with all new toys).

As for playing and developing young guys, Tip played OEL at 19, he was our number 1 D. Tip will play you if you earn it, and he beat out a bunch of vets to be the number 1 D. If young guys deserve it, they will play, it is that simple. The gap between the AHL and NHL is huge.

Tip's reasons below:

1. Young guys are not good enough yet, still have to earn it.
2. With 2 way contracts it is cheaper to play vets on 1 ways.
3. Tip just plays vets and does not care to play rookies.

You guys think Tip is number 3, I think he is number 1, but number 2 might be playing a roll. With a new owner, if he opens up the purse strings, it will be easy for Tip to demote guys on one way contracts, then we will see what he does. If Tip's hand is being forced right now with one way/two way issues, we might find out shortly.

Yes, DM said he wanted to get younger. Verby/DMO/Halpern/klesla/Ribs are gone. In are Vitale/Murphy/Summers/Gagner. We got younger. DM did not say we are going to play all 21 year olds from the AHL, never said that. He said we would get younger, and we did.

Replacing Tip and telling a new coach to play young guys is a mistake. It took Dallas over 5 years to recover after they fired Tip for supposedly not playing young guys. How did that work out for Dallas and how is it working for Edmonton? DM can't micro manage Tip and tell him who he has to play or mandate that he plays 2 guys 21 and under on the roster at all times.

If you philosophically disagree with your GM as an owner, or your coach as a GM, then you have to make a change. I think, given the roster and financial constraints, that both have done a good job overall and I totally disagree with the "playing the young guys" as the solution, short term or long term. I am sure my experience( I'm old) in managing people/playing/coaching plays a roll in my thought process.

My opinion is that we have a top 10 coach, top 10 GM, and bottom 10 budget. The budget constraints dictate decisions so we have to figure out how to do more with less. I would take better management over more money any day, because at the end of the say, poor management never wins, in any business (Toronto).

Your post makes complete sense. I disagree about DT being a top 10 coach, I think he is a top 5.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Okay, venting aside - and I've done a lot of it - I'm not on the "Fire Tippett/GMDM" bandwagon. That just adds money to spend out of the budget on them and money spent on hiring new guys. It's pretty clear we don't have that money to spend.

I think Tippett's system is too predictable for our talent level. Teams know what our players are going to do. If our kids can't perform - and so far our defensive players haven't performed to capacity - then it's going to be easy for the opposition to beat us, and beat us badly.

I think it's no secret that I wanted to keep our young forwards up, especially given their preseason scoring. I'm not that sanguine about our kids on defense. We have a ton of PMD and a lack of solid SAH guys. Tip's system REQUIRES good SAH D to work.

The question in my mind is whether it's Playfair's defensive strategies or our players' inability to perform that's the culprit for why we are sievelike this season. My money is on Playfair because the D has been this way ever since he was put in charge of it. Yes, we had Aucoin and Roszival during our WCF run but we also had Ulf. And look what the Rangers did with Ulf as defensive coach last season - everything they were saying about the Rangers, they used to say about us.

I guess it's up to Maloney - does he trade for "better" D, or does he get a better defensive coach?

 

[Jakey53]

Tippett is a top 5 coach in the NHL. He'd be unemployed less than a week. I just don't know that he is the right coach for this organization at this time. We don't have the veteran talent for a Tippett playoff team right now. We saw that the last two years. If we're not going to add young talent, and we can't afford to add veteran talent we're just spinning our wheels with Tippett at the helm. This franchise will not thrive with a "zero development" stance on NHL ice for young players. Could the 90's Detroit teams survive? Yes, they had an unlimited budget and would just sign free agents and trade all their youth for veteran help. It is a brilliant way to run if you can afford it. It also helps that dynastic approach was pre-cap. Since then they've been good, but not great.

GMDM did a great job for quite some time picking through the reclamation bin hunting for bargains. He has not done a good job managing his head coach or the development of our young players. How much of this is bowing to Tippett's opinion and how much Maloney is on the page I do not know. It's also possible that Maloney wanted more kids on the roster and would have done it if he could afford it. Only the owners and the bean counters know that. I'm sure the owners will weigh that in their decision to keep him/them or go a different direction.

Your saying DT is a top 5 coach but not the right coach for this organization. Okay, lets hire a bottom 5 coach that plays the kids and see if that will make you happy.