GDT: 2/16/13 "Static Shock" - Lightning VS Panthers

[ProjectPanthers]

WE SCORED 5 GOALS TWO TIMES THIS WEEK AND LOST BOTH GAMES BECAUSE WE GAVE UP 6

are people on this board serious or are they actually this dense? jesus

It's inconsistency man how the **** can you not see that?

We can allow 0-1 goals a game, but we can't score in those games.

We can score 5 goals in a game but can't play defense in those.

Inconsistency is the signs of a bad team. We are a very bad team right now and our list of issues can't just be found as one thing.

Goaltending is inconsistent.
Defense is inconsistent.
Offense is inconsistent.

That is our problem. We can't put a solid enough effort in over the course of 3 periods to win one game, let alone put some sort of a winning streak together to try and get back into this playoff race

Tallon is content too. We won't be seeing any changes and expect to rack up a **** ton more OTLs before this season ends. If you think a goalie will save this season you are beyond dense. Sure maybe we have one more win, but great goalies steal games, not seasons.

BTW, anyone have a stat on our regular season OT record over the last decade? It's gotta be one of the worst stats in sports.

 

[flapanthersfan]

Shore and Huberdeau are rookies. Who knows what Shore and Huberdeau will be in the future, but right now those two players alone can't handle all the scoring. Shore has probably been our most consistent forward this season.

Weiss, Mueller, Versteeg, and Fleishmann are 2nd line players. They are players that fit well in their defined role (depth scoring) but aren't game breakers because they are too one dimensional. Weiss and Versteeg might be struggling through injuries/playing hurt, but they aren't comparable with players like Toews, Kopitar, Malkin on a game to game basis even when healthy.

Filip Kuba,George Parros, and Alex Kovalev are retreads. Strachan played a horrible game today. I dont know if its the ice, but he lost his edge at least three times.

And if you believe our team is just as talented as Tampa's then blame the coaching. So in that case you should be lobbying for a new coach.

who said our players are comparable to Toews, Kopitar or Malkin? seriously?

who said we're as talented as Tampa?

lets not put words in other peoples mouths now. you said our team is full of retreads. shore and huberdeau may be rookies, but the way they are playing, they're establishing themselves as quality second line players in the present with upside for more, aka: not retreads. fleishmann is not a superstar but could be considered a legitimate first liner, at least in a complimentary role. weiss, versteeg, mueller are very good second liners.

they are not "depth scorers" they are legitimate top-6 players, and we have six of them.

goc, kopecky, matthias... guys that score 10-15 goals a year are "depth scorers".

not every team has a legit superstar at every position on their first line. and those that do you could probably count pretty easily on one hand.

i also never said we're as talented as tampa. we're not. tampa, too, is losing games because they're not playing well defensively, though, not because they're not talented.

but neither of the points you made prove that we're not a talented team. you dont need superstars to be a talented team.

 

[Lessthan900]

Shore and Huberdeau are rookies. Who knows what Shore and Huberdeau will be in the future, but right now those two players alone can't handle all the scoring. Shore has probably been our most consistent forward this season.

Weiss, Mueller, Versteeg, and Fleishmann are 2nd line players. They are players that fit well in their defined role (depth scoring) but aren't game breakers because they are too one dimensional. Weiss and Versteeg might be struggling through injuries/playing hurt, but they aren't comparable with players like Toews, Kopitar, Malkin on a game to game basis even when healthy.

Filip Kuba,George Parros, and Alex Kovalev are retreads. Strachan played a horrible game today. I dont know if its the ice, but he lost his edge at least three times.

The bottom line is this: who on our team is going to assert himself and take control of the situation. No one knows who that is.

If you believe our team is just as talented as Tampa's then blame the coaching. So in that case you should be lobbying for a new coach.

I love this analysis, and would pose the question: Why can't Florida ever have a top line? The closest we've come (heading back in time) is: Olli Jokinen, Nathan Horton, Pavel Bure (then the questionable Ray Whitney). But not all at the same time, of course.

 

[flapanthersfan]

It's inconsistency man how the **** can you not see that?

We can allow 0-1 goals a game, but we can't score in those games.

We can score 5 goals in a game but can't play defense in those.

Inconsistency is the signs of a bad team. We are a very bad team right now and our list of issues can't just be found as one thing.

Goaltending is inconsistent.
Defense is inconsistent.
Offense is inconsistent.

That is our problem. We can't put a solid enough effort in over the course of 3 periods to win one game, let alone put some sort of a winning streak together to try and get back into this playoff race

Tallon is content too. We won't be seeing any changes and expect to rack up a **** ton more OTLs before this season ends.

BTW, anyone have a stat on our regular season OT record over the last decade? It's gotta be one of the worst stats in sports.

i don't disagree with any of that. we're 4-6-3 right now, as it stands, we're a inconsistent/bad team.

but we shouldn't be is my point. we have more talent than last year, by a wide margin actually. there's no reason we shouldn't be better than last year.

but we're not. why? because our skaters aren't paying the same attention to detail in our zone and our goalies can't stop a beachball.

the first problem is correctable through hard work.

the second answer is rotting in San Antonio.

that, to me, is infuriating.

 

[flapanthersfan]

a team like montreal, that we just saw, is a perfect example of a talented team without any real "superstar" players.

they have a group of solid, top-6 forwards in plekanec, desharnais, galchenyuk, pacioretty, cole and bourque.

they have a good number #1 d man in markov, their version of campbell.

the difference between them and us? they're playing suffocating defense and getting great goaltending. we're not.

 

[Boothinator]

Too stupid to win a game..Too bad to win a game in OT.

Enough said.

 

[adam graves]

a team like montreal, that we just saw, is a perfect example of a talented team without any real "superstar" players.

they have a group of solid, top-6 forwards in plekanec, desharnais, galchenyuk, pacioretty, cole and bourque.

they have a good number #1 d man in markov, their version of campbell.

the difference between them and us? they're playing suffocating defense and getting great goaltending. we're not.

this.

 

[zeroG]

Stop blaming Dineen. It's not his fault.
How many times have we blamed coaches only to watch them go on and have success elsewhere?

Everybody liked Dineen last year. A coach looks a lot better when his goalies stop at least 90% of the pucks they face...

zeroG says hello! i am on record since last november - i'm not a dineen fan. last year's success didn't fool me, nor did it fool anyone in the game (he didn't get a sniff of the adams). i don't dislike him or feel he's incapable of ever being a good coach but the team play we see on the ice is a reflection of the coaching. it's been consistently inconsistent and consistently sloppy.

It's not the coach. People used to say the same thing about DeBoer. He's doing pretty well these days...

sometimes, it is. i was consistent throughout pete's tenure - he is a very good coach. he very well may end up being one of the top coaches of this era. a lot of fans who love the team blamed him but he simply didn't have a roster to work with. his teams were anything but sloppy. kevin dineen is not a very good coach right now.

If you believe our team is just as talented as Tampa's then blame the coaching. So in that case you should be lobbying for a new coach.

i don't agree with your conclusion. we certainly don't have the talent the lightning has but that is no excuse for the type of poor play that is consistently costing us games. the lightning and other talented teams lose all the time to teams with < talent on paper.

this isn't a systematic issue. the team is playing fluidly and the system in place is a big reason as to why we're scoring so much offensively.

the problems are basic hockey - it has nothing to do with coaching or the "system" our coach institutes. there's no coach in the history of the NHL that has "leave the guy in front of the net wide open" as part of their system - that much i can guarantee you.

the problems are the players not executing defensively. they're not picking up their man, they're not rotating properly. it is a lack of focus and lack of execution, plain and simple.

and this is NOT just the defensmen. alot of it has to do with the forwards. i'd even go as far as saying it has more to do with the forwards than the defensmen. i'm not absolving the d for their issues, because none of them are playing well right now (even Campbell)...but the tying goal was the responsibility of a forward. purcell was in the high slot acting as the "3rd forward" and that is not the responsibility of a d-man. pick up your ****ing assignment, it's basic hockey and none of our guys are good enough to get by in this league without doing it consistently.

i'd be hard pressed to blame this loss solely on theodore because the defensive play in front of him tonight was truly abysmal and he did make some big stops. that being said, six goals is still six goals and not all of them were one timers from the slot. he wasn't the only reason for the loss, but he contributed to it, that's for sure.

these issues are so frustrating to me, though, because for the first time in a LONG time we seem to have the talent and ability to score goals on a reasonably consistent basis....but now we're leaking on the other end of the ice and the issues we have are more lack of focus and hard work than anything else. that's all defense is. outwork your opponent in your own zone/pay attention to detail and the other team isn't going to score.

we're the complete opposite team of what we were last year. we were a terrible offensive team but with a group of relentless players who paid attention to every detail on the ice and got great goaltending for almost every game. now we seem to be a team with good offense, bad defense, bad goaltending and just a general knack for getting outworked, especially in crucial situations.

i agree that systems (everyone blames systems without even knowing what the word means) are not to blame, that defense is a 5 man effort and that the problems are of a basic execution nature. i also agree that goaltending has been below average.

all that said, you can still point to coaching - every coach has power to focus his team's attention on the details he feels are important and are lacking. you do that in a number of ways - through your video sessions, your practice plans and the drills you choose, the instructions you give your team before and during the game and also in the ice time you hand out.

still, i'm not suggesting we fire dineen though, ultimately, i don't have the belief that dineen will lead this team anywhere big. he's tallon's guy and i don't think tallon will fire him midseason, especially in an exceptional year like this with the lockout and all the injuries. however, if this type of play continues the entire year, i would hope tallon is capable of realizing he may have made a mistake (even if i think he's made many, the largest being deboer).

 

[PSLguy]

the problems are basic hockey - it has nothing to do with coaching or the "system" our coach institutes. there's no coach in the history of the NHL that has "leave the guy in front of the net wide open" as part of their system - that much i can guarantee you.

I was at the game this afternoon and said this to my wife several times! Why can't they clear the front of the net? Tampa was camping out there and the Panthers seemed to just let them - frustrating to watch!

This was magnified by Theo giving up rebounds into the slot. This is where I feel Theo is not doing as well this year - giving up rebounds.

I was pleased with the "kid line" as they seemed to have the most energy, along with Matthias and Skille. Weiss seemed slowed for the most part, a few exceptions, and looked like he was having trouble accelerating.

They better play better against Toronto. The season is slipping away from them. 6 points were on the table and after having all 6 in their pocket, they left half of them go!

We are gluttons for punishment and will be there Monday night wearing our red jersey's and cheering every save and clapping for every penalty kill zone clear!

 

[FlaPnthrsPunk]

I was at the game. Obviously, it was great until the last ten seconds of regulation. I wish we knew what the problem really is. I honestly think it's some kind of mental issue that we had prior to last season when we have leads. It's not that we don't have talent because at times, we can compete with any team in the league, but maybe it's just not as good as we thought.

Last season, we succeeded I believe because our top line clicked, especially for the first 1/4 of the season. Our defense for the most part played well and our goaltending was outstanding. Now, with two of the guys on the top line playing hurt, our defense letting up way too many shots, and our goaltending playing like the worst tandem in the league, it's simple to see why no opposition thinks being down by two goals to us is impossible to come back from.

I question some of Dineen's decisions, but I can't put the blame on him. I know he's trying to motivate these guys to make smart decisions with the puck and play their A-game at all times, but he can only go so far.

We really need basically a six-game winning streak from here to stay in the race. I mean our playoff chances are down to 4% now. It really can't get much more frustrating than this. I really thought that after last season, we could put our woes behind us, but it will take possibly a few more seasons when our proposed amazing prospect pool develops. At least we have that to look forward to eventually, but for now as someone told me on Twitter just before, we just have to ride this out as best that we can. We all love the Panthers as much as this rollercoaster may keep going on and stay with them through the think and thin. Hopefully, eventually it will pay off.

Oh yeah. Also, after attending this game and going to the autograph session afterward, I realized two things. Our fan base is VERY knowledgeable about the team and the game of hockey. I talked to so many people while waiting for autographs that know exactly what's going on with the state of the team at the moment, thought of ways to improve, and which players around the league can make an impact for the team's future. Also, you can tell on all of the players faces that they are extremely frustrated about another overtime loss. I forget which one said this, but he said he was embarrassed even to come outside and meet with fans after another very disappointing outcome. I'm sure the team wants to get wins as much as we do, but problems have to be solved first before that happens.

 

[IceManCat]

LA was actually an absolutely terrible defensive team when Quick came up. they didn't have Darryl Sutter then. their coach was Terry Murray.

remember him?

if you're going to come in with terrible arguments the least you could do is get your facts straight .

BTW - one goal would have been the difference in 4 out of our last 5 losses. so even if Markstrom was even just a marginal upgrade over Theodore/Clemmensen, and could have make one extra save, we'd be sitting with an 8-6 right now.

the "it would make no difference" argument is beyond stupid. with that logic, why try to improve the roster ever?

Here is a giant surprise for ya Aristotle!!!

Jonathan Quick's debut season in 2008-2009- The LA KINGS went from dead last in the league a year earlier in penalty killing to 7th best in the league, with an 82.9% rating. They had the fourth best faceoff win percentage, and allowed the fourth fewest shots on goal in the league. OMG JUST LIKE THE PANTHERS THIS YEAR




Speaking of terrible arguments, YOUR HYPOTHETICAL argument where Markstrom plays like Lundqvist and gives us wins is.. you guessed it, HYPOTHETICAL. Neither under Boolean nor Aristotlean logic do non existent cases take precedent over actuality. Get you logical argument rules straight if you want to attack "fallacious" arguments. Your weak argument is a joke under both academia and natural common sense occurrence. In case you don't understand actual "logic" which I obviously doubt you have any experience in, that means there is no "proof" for what you are saying. I love when non academics turn to academia, break the rules of logic then tell the other guy he didn't use logic in his statement GOLD


In your own words

"if you're going to come in with terrible arguments the least you could do is get your facts straight ."

 

[PanthersHockey1]

I think one of our consistent issues over the last decade that always keeps coming to the foreront is our lack of physicality, If i had a dollar for every time my dad and I were screaming Hit him tonight we would have been able to sit in overpriced club red.

The secret to playing good D imo is separating opposition from puck other than guds and maybe kuli there is no one forward or defensemen on our team who does it on a consistent basis.

OF COURSE the lightning will score if lecavallier has all day to sit behind the net and wait for a sneaky forward to come into the high slot.

Our lack of physicality has burnt us for far too long. We need to get much more big this summer and upgrade our physicality its simply unacceptable.

 

[angry_treefrog]

I think one of our consistent issues over the last decade that always keeps coming to the foreront is our lack of physicality, If i had a dollar for every time my dad and I were screaming Hit him tonight we would have been able to sit in overpriced club red.

The secret to playing good D imo is separating opposition from puck other than guds and maybe kuli there is no one forward or defensemen on our team who does it on a consistent basis.

OF COURSE the lightning will score if lecavallier has all day to sit behind the net and wait for a sneaky forward to come into the high slot.

Our lack of physicality has burnt us for far too long. We need to get much more big this summer and upgrade our physicality its simply unacceptable.

Couldn't agree more.

We don't need stupid penalties, but making the game hard for the other team should be the team identity. Small example...Ever notice how much more other teams stand up for their netminders and protect them after the whistle blows than the Panthers do... and I'm not just talking about the current team.

 

[Ghoste]

Are they going to change the Huby goal to Shore? Looked like his pass deflected in off the Tampa Bay defenseman.

-ghoste

 

[Dread Clawz]

If Tallon thinks letting up 5 and 6 goals every game is acceptable, then I guess we are not going to the playoffs.

I don't think Tallon thinks it's acceptable, but he's not going to touch the future in order to save this whackamole shortened season. We are the worst team in the conference and this team would need a plethora of moves in order to get the team on the right track, not just one. There's not that many games until the trade deadline anyway, our suffering will be over soon. We'll ride it out, get a high draft pick, and come back re-charged for next season.

 

[Haj]

I'm tired of this.

I'm not sure what genetic defect I have that causes me to be so emotionally invested in a franchise that never fails to dissapoint...but maybe the answer is better amniocentesis or a forced eugenics program.

I know that sounds a bit harsh, but I think I'm going insane.


****ing Panthers.

 

[flapanthersfan]

zeroG says hello! i am on record since last november - i'm not a dineen fan. last year's success didn't fool me, nor did it fool anyone in the game (he didn't get a sniff of the adams). i don't dislike him or feel he's incapable of ever being a good coach but the team play we see on the ice is a reflection of the coaching. it's been consistently inconsistent and consistently sloppy.



sometimes, it is. i was consistent throughout pete's tenure - he is a very good coach. he very well may end up being one of the top coaches of this era. a lot of fans who love the team blamed him but he simply didn't have a roster to work with. his teams were anything but sloppy. kevin dineen is not a very good coach right now.



i don't agree with your conclusion. we certainly don't have the talent the lightning has but that is no excuse for the type of poor play that is consistently costing us games. the lightning and other talented teams lose all the time to teams with < talent on paper.



i agree that systems (everyone blames systems without even knowing what the word means) are not to blame, that defense is a 5 man effort and that the problems are of a basic execution nature. i also agree that goaltending has been below average.

all that said, you can still point to coaching - every coach has power to focus his team's attention on the details he feels are important and are lacking. you do that in a number of ways - through your video sessions, your practice plans and the drills you choose, the instructions you give your team before and during the game and also in the ice time you hand out.

still, i'm not suggesting we fire dineen though, ultimately, i don't have the belief that dineen will lead this team anywhere big. he's tallon's guy and i don't think tallon will fire him midseason, especially in an exceptional year like this with the lockout and all the injuries. however, if this type of play continues the entire year, i would hope tallon is capable of realizing he may have made a mistake (even if i think he's made many, the largest being deboer).

your obsession with deboer is concerning.

i was one of the few, maybe only, who was supporting deboer until his firing with you. i always maintained he was a good coach. but jesus, let it go.

dineen is a good coach. they have different philosophies and while deboer's defensive-aggresive style has proven to be more effective than dineens over time, that doesn't prove this team cannot succeed with dineen, either. plenty of teams have won playing similar systems to ours, detroit under babcock, carolina under laviolette, tampa under torts.

and while you're also right that coaches can try and focus his teams attention to details and improve their focus on the defensive intricacies of the game....at some point the players need to be held responsible. the problems that ail this team right now are pretty obvious, and if you don't think dineen is trying to rectify them you're delusional. you can try all you want but if you have lazy ***** like alex kovalev or useless goons like george parros as your students, you can teach until your blue in the face...it wont help.

 

[flapanthersfan]

I'm tired of this.

I'm not sure what genetic defect I have that causes me to be so emotionally invested in a franchise that never fails to dissapoint...but maybe the answer is better amniocentesis or a forced eugenics program.

I know that sounds a bit harsh, but I think I'm going insane.


****ing Panthers.

i hear you, and am usually right there with you, but....

the thing keeping me sane is our youth. even if we suck this year, some things look like they are getting accomplished big picture wise.

shore looks like a stud, i've been impressed with him the first game i saw him (look it up ) and he just keeps getting better. huberdeau's name speaks for itself, and mueller looks like he's going to be here a long time (he's only 24).

that's 3 guys we didn't have last year, at least not at this level and proving themselves at this level.

i also don't think this team is as bad as alot of you do. it's a good team, they just need to learn what it takes to win at this level. and that means playing good defense and with consistent effort. if they don't, get rid of those individuals.


( for the record - i'm just talking about our skaters. goaltending has been brutal and must improve or this "good team" has no chance, just like anyone. right now we're what tampa bay was last year throwing out the dwayne roloson-mathieu garon tandem, unfortunately. if that doesn't change, whether it be by theodore and clemmensen getting their heads out of their *****, or markstrom being promoted, we stand no chance to succeed.)

 

[IceManCat]

no. you need to learn how to read, however.



cool. you still have not dis-proven anything i have said regarding the topic at hand aside from deflecting the discussion from hockey analysis to discussing the definition of "logic"

like i said - stick to philosophy. when it comes to hockey, you're a dunce.

I know its difficult for you, you brought out the whole logical argument thing in the first place, but seeing you have no argument against mine Ill just leave that as a forfeit. Its not really fair for you, I have provided all the proof you need right there from a legitimate source and given you my argument both Academically and in layman terms. If you don't have any level of comprehension in philosophy don't throw words like "logic" and "arguments" out there, in layman's if you can't even own up to the fact that you were wrong about the LA Kings being worst defense in the league in Quick's first year of duties, then I don't know what to tell you, everyone on this board can see the facts laid out in front of them.
As for the larger argument of Markstrom being some clear upgrade in net, their is no proof of this being the case. Theodore has struggled in about half the games this season but when he is on like he was last year, he is clearly a good player. Playing devils advocate, their is no proof that Markstrom will not be better either, he may in fact be an upgrade; but he is not even in the top 20 of GAA in the AHL. Is this supposed to improve while playing behind an equally bad defense as in San Antonio and seeing better caliber shots in the NHL? These statistics indicate a negative under this teams current situation. He is top 5 in saves but a bad defense pushes his GAA to the bottom half of the AHL. This statistic is an indicater of bad defense, not his personal ability like the "saves" statistic; which alas is a similar problem the Panthers are having. Calling him up to the same exact situation as in San Antonio and having him split time with Theodore will not help anyone.

 

[zeroG]

your obsession with deboer is concerning.

i was one of the few, maybe only, who was supporting deboer until his firing with you. i always maintained he was a good coach. but jesus, let it go.

i think my response in the context of the "blame the coach again" discussion was justified and perfectly fine.

dineen is a good coach. they have different philosophies and while deboer's defensive-aggresive style has proven to be more effective than dineens over time, that doesn't prove this team cannot succeed with dineen, either. plenty of teams have won playing similar systems to ours, detroit under babcock, carolina under laviolette, tampa under torts.

i don't really see this team or dineen in the same category as any of those. i don't think we've even really established an identity, either. we were certainly never hard to play against under dineen.

and while you're also right that coaches can try and focus his teams attention to details and improve their focus on the defensive intricacies of the game....at some point the players need to be held responsible. the problems that ail this team right now are pretty obvious, and if you don't think dineen is trying to rectify them you're delusional. you can try all you want but if you have lazy ***** like alex kovalev or useless goons like george parros as your students, you can teach until your blue in the face...it wont help.

i'm sure dineen is trying. unfortunately for him, that's not a valid defense of his job. other coaches are trying and are fielding teams that play with more structure and compete harder.

and i'm with you regarding accountability. however, this is not a team of kovalevs and parroses; the team has some decent (at worst) 2 way forwards who right now are not doing what they need to do. maybe what you are talking about is a culture problem? i think it's possible, and that would be as much on tallon as dineen (not to mention jovo... but that goes back to tallon).

 

[angry_treefrog]

Cool it.

You can argue the points, but when you start insulting the person making the argument you have crossed the line.

You quite frankly both deserve infractions, but instead I'm leaving this as a public service announcement.

Next one goes right to infraction.

 

[Jacob Roberts]

I think everyone has missed the most important thing from that game; The completely ridiculous call from Goldie and Bill after the Huberdeau goal. That was embarrassing. "How do u do the things u do Huby Duby Do?"

 

[Drugs Delaney]

I think everyone has missed the most important thing from that game; The completely ridiculous call from Goldie and Bill after the Huberdeau goal. That was embarrassing. "How do u do the things u do Huby Duby Do?"

I don't like Goldie's voice at all. He's always sounded like he's on helium to me.

I guess Rimer did too but he had Potvin to make up for it.

 

[LUUUUUIS]

I think everyone has missed the most important thing from that game; The completely ridiculous call from Goldie and Bill after the Huberdeau goal. That was embarrassing. "How do u do the things u do Huby Duby Do?"

What's wrong with Huby Duby Do? No, I agree. Though I liked it at first... Goldie's taking it a bit too far.

 

[Jacob Roberts]

What's wrong with Huby Duby Do? No, I agree. Though I liked it at first... Goldie's taking it a bit too far.

I get the Huby Duby Do thing. It's cute and catchy and fits well. Used properly I have no problem.

BUT, what Bill said today was putrid