1C vs 1D - Value and Rarity

[loyaltotheend]

fair enough, but let me ask

If you said (which you didnt, hypothetical) there are ~30 1Cs and ~15 1Ds, wouldnt that then peg the average 1D higher than a 1C? Or are you of the belief that most 1Cs are worth more than most 1Ds?

I don't understand where you get this idea there are 30 #1Cs and only 15 #1D. Is this because you were trying to define it earlier as better of the two guys on the top pair? That would still give you 30. If you want to only include the franchise-level #1D (of which I'd agree there might only be 15 or so) than do the same with the Centres. (If you prefer the term "elite" to "franchise" or whatever just make the substitution)

Separate point: Top Cs generally only come from the top picks in the draft. Rarely do you find a Bergeron hiding in the 2nd round. Top defencemen are more commonly found with later picks. (Not a shot at dmen value, more likely a product of how hard it is to evaluate the development, especially compared to C). So I would say it's another one showing Centres are more valuable, as you usually need a top pick to get one.

 

[loyaltotheend]

you talk about these 1D changing hands like it was the teams' decision to get rid of them and therefor they must not be as valuable. I honestly don't know the specifics of all of these guys but Suter wasn't going to stay no matter what, Pronger had to leave because of that affair thing... Who were they traded for? I mean if you have a rebuilding team they're going to trade a #1D for a boatload of assets vs keeping the D. I'd like to see some context if someone is going to rattle off a miles long list.

To be fair, in one of the posts Tavares was mentioned as a C who changed teams. Isn't that the same as Suter? Wanted to go elsewhere?
I only point it out because if that criteria removes Suter from the list (for example) it would shorten the Cs list as well...

 

[Puckstuff]

This is a difficult question; because if your version of #1 defensmen is Prime Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty, Scott Niedermayer, Ryan Suter or Niklas Lidstrom; then you are talking about some of the best defensmen in there generation that played upwards of 26-28 minutes a night (literally almost half the game) and were just completely dominant; and yes; very rare. In this scenario you are going to almost always chose the defensmen unless it's Crosby or McDavid. If you are talking about a #1 D like OEL, Alex Pitreangelo; these guys are also awesome; but don't impact the game on that level.

If you ask Kings fans who is better Doughty or Kopitar; they will be conflicted but the answer is probably Doughty because he is the best # 1 d-man on the planet (arguably)

If you take the 3rd best NHL d-man; which in my opinion is Victor Hedman; and you take the third best Center; which in my opinion is Nate Mackinnon; who would you rather have? It's pretty unanswerable isn't it.

Most teams that contend for cups have both. These are some of the most recent non Pittsburgh penguins Stanley cup contending winners. I didn't use the Penguins because having Crosby and Maklin (the 2 best c's in the NHL) is not a normal scenario.

Toews, Keith
Kopitar, Doughty
Bergeron, Chara
Getzlaf, Niedermayer
Backstrom, Carlson
Yzerman, Lidstorm

What is interesting; out of all of those Stanley cup winners; the defensmen on all of the cup winners seem to be the best NHL defensmen in the entire NHL. It's not like they are the 8th or 11th best d-man in the league. They were literally the best or second best d-man in the NHL that year.

 

[loyaltotheend]

This is a difficult question; because if your version of #1 defensmen is Prime Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty, Scott Neidermayer, Ryan Suter or Niklas Lidstrom; then you are talking about some of the best defensmen in there generation that played upwards of 26-28 minutes a night (literally almost half the game) and were just completely dominant; and yes; very rare. In this scenario you are going to almost always chose the defensmen unless it's Crosby or McDavid. If you are talking about a #1 D like OEL, Alex Pitreangelo; these guys are also awesome; but don't impact that game on that level.

If you ask Kings fans who is better Doughty or Kopitar; they will be conflicted but the answer is probably Doughty because he is the best # 1 d-man on the planet (arguably)

If you take the 3rd best NHL d-man; which in my opinion is Victor Hedman; and you take the third best Center; which in my opinion is Nate Mackinnon; who would you rather have? It's pretty unanswerable isn't it.

Most teams that contend for cups have both:

Toews, Keith
Yzerman, Lidstorm
Kopitar, Doughty
Bergeron, Chara
Getzlaf, Pronger
Backstrom, Carlson

These are some of the most recent non Pittsburgh penguins Stanley cup contending winners.

What is interesting; out of all of those Stanley cup winners; the defensmen on all of the cup winners seem to be the best NHL defensmen in the entire NHL. It's not like they are the 8th or 11th best d-man in the league. They were literally the best or second best d-man in the NHL

One of those Dmen is not like the others... The rest are almost legendary

It is a tough question for sure. D are very valuable. I think I still have to go with the Centre in most cases though. You listed some stellar defencemen in your first paragraph, I would have to consider who the best C of the given time frame is to choose. During prime Duncan Keith, would that be Crosby? Or Malkin maybe? I'd take either of them over Keith.
As you move down the list of best D-best C I think it still holds true. The centre generally has more value

 

[Puckstuff]

One of those Dmen is not like the others... The rest are almost legendary

It is a tough question for sure. D are very valuable. I think I still have to go with the Centre in most cases though. You listed some stellar defencemen in your first paragraph, I would have to consider who the best C of the given time frame is to choose. During prime Duncan Keith, would that be Crosby? Or Malkin maybe? I'd take either of them over Keith.
As you move down the list of best D-best C I think it still holds true. The centre generally has more value

Carlson was #1 in the entire NHL in points last year. He doesn't have longevity of Keith, Doughty etc but d-men blossom late; and Carlson WAS one of the best d-men in the world last year.

 

[loyaltotheend]

Carlson was #1 in the entire NHL in points last year. He doesn't have longevity of Keith, Doughty etc but d-men blossom late; and Carlson WAS one of the best d-men in the world last year.

Fair enough, I disagree somewhat, but not enough to argue. I don't think he comes close to repeating it though. We will have to see what he does going forward. The others are still at a much higher status in my books.

 

[topshelf15]

Name the last team to win a cup without an elite center?

NJ,ANA

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

This is a difficult question; because if your version of #1 defensmen is Prime Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty, Scott Niedermayer, Ryan Suter or Niklas Lidstrom; then you are talking about some of the best defensmen in there generation that played upwards of 26-28 minutes a night (literally almost half the game) and were just completely dominant; and yes; very rare. In this scenario you are going to almost always chose the defensmen unless it's Crosby or McDavid. If you are talking about a #1 D like OEL, Alex Pitreangelo; these guys are also awesome; but don't impact the game on that level.

If you ask Kings fans who is better Doughty or Kopitar; they will be conflicted but the answer is probably Doughty because he is the best # 1 d-man on the planet (arguably)

If you take the 3rd best NHL d-man; which in my opinion is Victor Hedman; and you take the third best Center; which in my opinion is Nate Mackinnon; who would you rather have? It's pretty unanswerable isn't it.

Most teams that contend for cups have both. These are some of the most recent non Pittsburgh penguins Stanley cup contending winners. I didn't use the Penguins because having Crosby and Maklin (the 2 best c's in the NHL) is not a normal scenario.

Toews, Keith
Kopitar, Doughty
Bergeron, Chara
Getzlaf, Niedermayer
Backstrom, Carlson
Yzerman, Lidstorm

What is interesting; out of all of those Stanley cup winners; the defensmen on all of the cup winners seem to be the best NHL defensmen in the entire NHL. It's not like they are the 8th or 11th best d-man in the league. They were literally the best or second best d-man in the NHL that year.

Lmfao, John Carlson was not anywhere near the 8th or 11th best defenseman this year; let alone the best or 2nd best.

I shouldn’t mock your post as a whole because I generally agree with the idea of it, but you’re vastly overrating John Carlson.

On top of that, these Cup winners usually also had another player in a different position that was the absolute cream of the crop. Ovechkin 2018, Crosby 2017, Crosby 2016, Kane 2015, Kopitar 2014, Toews 2013, Quick 2012, Thomas 2011, (only Duncan Keith) 2010, Malkin 2009, Datsyuk 2008. All of these guys were top-3 at their position that season and it really isn’t debatable except for Kane in 2015 and Toews in 2013.

You need multiple high end players who are near the absolute best in the NHL but if you can only have one or two, then you take the center first and worry about the rest later.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

I agree. Id even say there is likely close to 30 1Cs whereas I would bet there arent even 15-20 1Ds. Also look at any top 10-20 lists for centers and defenseman, defenseman lists dont vary year to year nearly as much as center lists seem to (granted this may be due to recency bias)

How is that? By definition there are 31 1cs and 31 1ds.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Lmfao, John Carlson was not anywhere near the 8th or 11th best defenseman this year; let alone the best or 2nd best.

Yeah, dude was p solidly in the 20s

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I agree. Id even say there is likely close to 30 1Cs whereas I would bet there arent even 15-20 1Ds. Also look at any top 10-20 lists for centers and defenseman, defenseman lists dont vary year to year nearly as much as center lists seem to (granted this may be due to recency bias)

It’s pointless to argue when you make up your own standards for something subjective like the “#1C Vs. #1D” argument that really don’t have any sound logic behind them and don’t make any sense. Yeah, if there were only 15 #1Ds in the NHL but there were 30 #1Cs, then perhaps #1Ds would be more valuable. But that totally isn’t the case.

 

[nbwingsfan]

As a Wings fan, we had two of the best #1Cs in the league in Zetterberg and Datsyuk yet when Lidstrom declined/retired, our team stopped being a true contender.

I know Lidstrom isn't the typical #1D, but it sure showed the importance of having someone to start the plays.

 

[Kamiccolo]

As a Wings fan, we had two of the best #1Cs in the league in Zetterberg and Datsyuk yet when Lidstrom declined/retired, our team stopped being a true contender.

I know Lidstrom isn't the typical #1D, but it sure showed the importance of having someone to start the plays.

But then you look at Nashville who has had a rotating cast of two franchise D minimum for over a decade and still have never gotten it done, even with a goalie capable of Vezina's playing behind them. They are not the only example, Carolina and Calgary are both teams that have championed having a strong defense and you could argue that Calgary at points (even this last season) had multiple #1 D and Carolina just has a #1 D with a stacked D core behind him. Yet neither teams are lighting up the league.

Now let's look at teams who have multiple #1 C's on their roster, how many of them have been teams that couldn't make the playoffs regularly (Carolina, Calgary) or how many didn't win a cup within the first few years of having that depth? Hell, Washington only got over the hump when they had two franchise C emerge from their lineup.

Let's not forget at the end of the day, the team that scores more wins. Having a franchise D who can hold the fort half the game and also chip in points and manage a transition is HUGE in maintaining flow of the game in your favor. But they are not the ones usually scoring the big goals and putting up a ton of points. Forwards are the guys who are game breakers more times than not.

Of course, let's not get lost in this debate and forget even if you have two McDavid's or Two Lidstroms, your team might not win anything it is all about the surrounding cast. My observation has just been that the cup winners and cup contenders over the last decade have all (With the exception of Chicago but Kane was able to impact the game like a franchise C) had multiple #1C's on them. Not all of them have had franchise goalies or a stacked defense. Hell lately you could argue the last three winners didn't even HAVE a true franchise D on the roster. They just had a strong center core surrounded by guys who could finish offensively and a defense capable of moving the puck to those forwards.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

As a Wings fan, we had two of the best #1Cs in the league in Zetterberg and Datsyuk yet when Lidstrom declined/retired, our team stopped being a true contender.

I know Lidstrom isn't the typical #1D, but it sure showed the importance of having someone to start the plays.

Zetterberg/Datsyuk also notably declined right after Lidstrom left.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

How is that? By definition there are 31 1cs and 31 1ds.

not even close

Off the top of my head Detroit, NJ, NYR, NYI, Montreal, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, Edmonton, Colorado, Arizona, Chicago, and Vegas (only one year so...) dont have 1Ds.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

Anaheim

If you dont think Ryan Getzlaf is elite I dont know what to tell you.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

I don't understand where you get this idea there are 30 #1Cs and only 15 #1D. Is this because you were trying to define it earlier as better of the two guys on the top pair? That would still give you 30. If you want to only include the franchise-level #1D (of which I'd agree there might only be 15 or so) than do the same with the Centres. (If you prefer the term "elite" to "franchise" or whatever just make the substitution)

Separate point: Top Cs generally only come from the top picks in the draft. Rarely do you find a Bergeron hiding in the 2nd round. Top defencemen are more commonly found with later picks. (Not a shot at dmen value, more likely a product of how hard it is to evaluate the development, especially compared to C). So I would say it's another one showing Centres are more valuable, as you usually need a top pick to get one.

If you SERIOUSLY think there are 30 #1Ds, please name them

 

[Voodoo Child]

It's not so much rarity as it is that number one centers are exclusively found in one place; the first round of the draft, and of those >80% of them are top five picks.

Crosby, Malkin, Backstrom, Tavares, Matthews, McDavid, Eichel, MacKinnon, Thornton, Toews, Stamkos, Barkov, Seguin and Johansen, all top five picks, half of them first overalls.

Kopitar, Scheifele, Barzal, Getzlaf, Monahan and Bergeron were mid firsts as well. Scheifele and Monahan being top 10 picks.

While number one D are just as rare, you can find them anywhere if you're smart.

Top five picks? Doughty, Hedman and Pietrangelo.

Lower in the first round? Karlsson, Carlson, Suter.

Middle rounds? Keith, Subban, Weber.

Way, way down? Byfuglien, Klingberg, Slavin.

Undrafted? Giordano.

Free agency? Chara.

In an analogy? Finding a number one center is like going to a place where the locals say there's gold and finding gold.

Finding a number one D is like finding gold when you're looking for diamonds, rubies or oil.

 

[maacoshark]

Both are pretty important but a top tier dman is a lot harder to find than a top center. There are a lot of teams that dont really have a true 1d.
This years Stanley cup winners were strong up the middle and had a very good 1d. I dont think the Caps win if any of those pieces were missing.

 

[Sypher04]

A top pair includes two guys. A 1C is a single player. A #1 > #2. Therefore a #1D would be better than half the other top pair dmen...

I think a more fair comparison is top pair vs 1C. Which even then is tough because it means more defenseman than centers since we cant include 2Cs (big talent discrepancy)

Your math doesn't really check out here. A #1d you say should be better than half the top pairing defenders but by definition that's 31 of them, not 15 like you said in another comment. There are 62 top pair defenders.

 

[loyaltotheend]

If you SERIOUSLY think there are 30 #1Ds, please name them

Why don't you save me the time and name the best dman on each team that you think isn't a number 1.

Edit: And to speed this up, are there more of these teams without a #1dman in your opinion than teams with extra? Everybody seems to count Parayko, right? How many does nashville have? What about Anaheim.
There are far more than 15 in any event

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

Your math doesn't really check out here. A #1d you say should be better than half the top pairing defenders but by definition that's 31 of them, not 15 like you said in another comment. There are 62 top pair defenders.

There most certainly are not 62 top pair defenders

 

[NJ DevLolz]

NJ,ANA

Exactly. Twice in the last twenty years

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It’s pointless to argue when you make up your own standards for something subjective like the “#1C Vs. #1D” argument that really don’t have any sound logic behind them and don’t make any sense. Yeah, if there were only 15 #1Ds in the NHL but there were 30 #1Cs, then perhaps #1Ds would be more valuable. But that totally isn’t the case.

Exactly. It's not going to be much of a discussion when the OP has decided he'll omit half the actual #1Ds because he, for his own reasons, doesn't believe they are 1D.

It would be like arbitrarily deciding that in order for a player to be considered a 1C, they have to score 90 points or more. Anyone below that isn't a 1C, and therefore, there are only 5 or 6 actual 1Cs in hockey.

 

[Deficient Mode]

not even close

Off the top of my head Detroit, NJ, NYR, NYI, Montreal, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, Edmonton, Colorado, Arizona, Chicago, and Vegas (only one year so...) dont have 1Ds.

And some teams have 2 or 4 of them

All your posts come down to is that D 16-31 aren't as good as C's 16-31. That's true, but C's 1-15 are better players than D 1-15 as well, and the drop off isn't greater for D than it is for C's.