1C vs 1D - Value and Rarity

[Sasso09]

1D for sure.. you almost have to draft one to have one. 1C change teams yearly

 

[Sasso09]

Okay, so let’s filter out the list and look at only defensemen that were established superstar #1Ds and the #1Cs of the same caliber at the time they changed teams.

#1D:

Chris Pronger
Zdeno Chara
Scott Niedermayer
Ryan Suter
Shea Weber
PK Subban
Dougie Hamilton
Dan Boyle

#1C:

Joe Thornton
John Tavares

Still a much longer list of #1 defensemen. Even if you consider Dougie Hamilton not to meet the bill (or Brent Burns, who was an all star at the time he was traded, but not a Norris guy), you’ve still got 7 Norris level defensemen who changed hands via trade. (I’m a Sharks fan and I forgot Boyle as one of the #1D who were traded in that time frame lol)

Wut?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Wut?

I literally said at the bottom that you can say Hamilton is not a part of that list.

Boyle was a Stanley Cup winning #1D who was top-5 in Norris votes in the season after he was traded.

1D for sure.. you almost have to draft one to have one. 1C change teams yearly

What the hell are you talking about? What 1Cs are changing hands yearly?

Why do people literally ignore the evidence of the plethora of #1Ds that have been traded compared to the #1Cs that have been traded? I don’t get it. Somebody please help me understand.

 

[tucker3434]

The problem is that people are a lot more selective about #1D than #1C. People only want to allow about 15 #1D but 31 #1C. But if you compare straight across, it’s about equal with the exception of the very top. If there was a Lidstrom in the league right now, it’d be the same though.

 

[Sasso09]

This is a difficult question; because if your version of #1 defensmen is Prime Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty, Scott Niedermayer, Ryan Suter or Niklas Lidstrom; then you are talking about some of the best defensmen in there generation that played upwards of 26-28 minutes a night (literally almost half the game) and were just completely dominant; and yes; very rare. In this scenario you are going to almost always chose the defensmen unless it's Crosby or McDavid. If you are talking about a #1 D like OEL, Alex Pitreangelo; these guys are also awesome; but don't impact the game on that level.

If you ask Kings fans who is better Doughty or Kopitar; they will be conflicted but the answer is probably Doughty because he is the best # 1 d-man on the planet (arguably)

If you take the 3rd best NHL d-man; which in my opinion is Victor Hedman; and you take the third best Center; which in my opinion is Nate Mackinnon; who would you rather have? It's pretty unanswerable isn't it.

Most teams that contend for cups have both. These are some of the most recent non Pittsburgh penguins Stanley cup contending winners. I didn't use the Penguins because having Crosby and Maklin (the 2 best c's in the NHL) is not a normal scenario.

Toews, Keith
Kopitar, Doughty
Bergeron, Chara
Getzlaf, Niedermayer
Backstrom, Carlson
Yzerman, Lidstorm

What is interesting; out of all of those Stanley cup winners; the defensmen on all of the cup winners seem to be the best NHL defensmen in the entire NHL. It's not like they are the 8th or 11th best d-man in the league. They were literally the best or second best d-man in the NHL that year.

Great points. For better context I'll rank my top 15 C and D side by side


McDavid-Karlsson
Crosby-Hedman
Malkin-Doughty
Kopitar-Jones
MacKinnon-Subban
Matthews - Josi
Schiefele - Burns
Barkov- Carlson
Stamkos - Pie
Backstrom - Provorov
Tavares - Suter
Seguin - McAvoy
Bergeron- Ghost
Kuznetsov - Slavin
Couturier - Klingberg

I think I take every C over D in the top 15.... I may have convinced myself to change my vote/opinion

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Teams have won Cups without 1Ds. They've also won them without 1Cs. I think I'd take a 1C if I had to choose.

 

[Rorschach]

You can win the Cup minus all sorts of key players...until you run into the team that does have that key player at the role you're missing while also having key players at the roles you do have.

 

[GodEmperor]

Splitting hairs for sure, there is absolutely no conclusive answer.

 

[Pavels Dog]

#1C > #1D

Defense-by-committee is easier to find success with than offense-by-committee. At least that's how I feel. But there's a reason most teams that win the cup are set at both #1C and #1D.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Not really sure which would carry more value as rarely do the perceived trade values line up with what these players actually get traded for. I do think there are a ton of fantastic centers in the league as of right now, and significantly less elite defenseman. If this was 5 or 6 years ago, I might of said the opposite.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Why haven't Leafs acquired one then.

Just because the Leafs have consistently and regularly failed to acquire a #1D doesn’t mean that it isn’t easier to do so than it is to acquire one than a #1C. Tavares notwithstanding, the only way to get a true #1C is to draft one in the top-5 of the entry draft. One the flip side, the Sharks, one single team, have acquired three elite #1D over the course of the last decade.

Do you have to be so antagonistic over a simple difference of opinion?

Burns is not even remotely near Pietrangelo when it comes to shutting down team's star players. A true #1D requires this ability. I've always found Pietrangelo disgustingly underrated on HFBoards, Shattenkirk stole his spot on the #1 PP for many years which artificially kept Piet's production down. The guy's easily a 55-65 point D-men with some of the best defensive play in the league, on top of being an incredible puck mover. Feel free to back me up here Blues fans, I know you guys have lived with him being underrated on here for a long time.

Pietrangelo has always been incredibly overrated defensively, but I suppose that’s not overly relevant to this thread.

 

[ImNeverWrong]

Name the last team to win a cup without an elite center?

Is captain intangibles "elite"?

 

[PredsV82]

Teams have won Cups without 1Ds. They've also won them without 1Cs. I think I'd take a 1C if I had to choose.

It all depends on how you draft.

Preds have been in existence 20 years and have drafted 4 legit 1D but not a single 1C