1C vs 1D - Value and Rarity

[Mr Positive]

Letang has historically been a terrific defenseman. Healthy has always been his downfall.

So you could say that Pittsburgh has no 1D now, and so their last 2 cups were won without a 1D. Arguably all 3 of their cups actually since Letang was not fully developed then.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

So you could say that Pittsburgh has no 1D now, and so their last 2 cups were won without a 1D. Arguably all 3 of their cups actually since Letang was not fully developed then.

Letang played outstanding hockey in the 2016 Cup win? He, along with Crosby, Kessel, and Murray were the four Conn Smythe favorites for that Cup run.

Why do people forget how good Letang was just because of his struggles this past season?

 

[Mr Positive]

Letang played outstanding hockey in the 2016 Cup win? He, along with Crosby, Kessel, and Murray were the four Conn Smythe favorites for that Cup run.

Why do people forget how good Letang was just because of his struggles this past season?

Even granting that though, that's 2 out 3 without a high end 1D

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Even granting that though, that's 2 out 3 without a high end 1D

They had Gonchar in 2009. At that time, Gonchar was still one of the best offensive defensemen in the league. He finished 4th in Norris voting the prior year, and 7th the year before that.

He may not have been on the Karlsson/Doughty/Hedman level of today, but at that time he was basically what a guy like Roman Josi or John Klingberg is today.

 

[Mr Positive]

They had Gonchar in 2009. At that time, Gonchar was still one of the best offensive defensemen in the league. He finished 4th in Norris voting the prior year, and 7th the year before that.

He may not have been on the Karlsson/Doughty/Hedman level of today, but at that time he was basically what a guy like Roman Josi or John Klingberg is today.

He was 35 at the time and didn't put up the big minutes. But I'd say he is a bit of a borderline case at least but there were definitely a lot better Dmen in those playoffs

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

He was 35 at the time and didn't put up the big minutes. But I'd say he is a bit of a borderline case at least but there were definitely a lot better Dmen in those playoffs

He was the Pens #1D and lead them in ice time per game. He missed games and his TOI/GP got hit a bit because Ovechkin nailed him with a knee on knee and he left a game early, then came back with some limited minutes. I'm not really sure who you're thinking of, because your description doesn't fit him.

 

[Mr Positive]

He was the Pens #1D and lead them in ice time per game. He missed games and his TOI/GP got hit a bit because Ovechkin nailed him with a knee on knee and he left a game early, then came back with some limited minutes. I'm not really sure who you're thinking of, because your description doesn't fit him.

As a pens fan you would know specifics like that but even in your explanation you are saying you won the cup that year while your 1d was hobbled

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

As a pens fan you would know specifics like that but even in your explanation you are saying you won the cup that year while your 1d was hobbled

He only actually missed 2 games, total, though. He was hobbled for some when he came back, but it's not like they didn't get the benefit of having him in the lineup the entire time, like the Pens had to do with Letang missing the entire 2017 playoffs.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Centre seems to be the most important position on the ice; generally speaking they have the greatest opportunity to impact play in all three zones.

 

[Viqsi]

But then you look at Nashville who has had a rotating cast of two franchise D minimum for over a decade and still have never gotten it done, even with a goalie capable of Vezina's playing behind them.

If the sole evaluation of a useful team is whether or not they won a Cup, then there's going to be a lot of failures out there. One could similarly point at plenty of elite-forward-focused teams that "have never gotten it done", such as San Jose, Dallas, Philadelphia before their current rebuild, and current Tampa Bay. Hell, Washington was the ur-example for a very long time.

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

Both are hard to find and than you have some teams like a Pittsburgh who has two #1 centres (Crosby and Malkin) or Nashville who have two #1 defenceman (Subban and Josi).

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Letang played outstanding hockey in the 2016 Cup win? He, along with Crosby, Kessel, and Murray were the four Conn Smythe favorites for that Cup run.

Why do people forget how good Letang was just because of his struggles this past season?

Letang sucked this season and was hurt in 2016-2017. I think he has always been pretty underrated because anybody who knows him knows he was a top-5 defenseman in the regular season and playoffs in 2015-2016 and he was an elite defenseman for a long period of time.

If the sole evaluation of a useful team is whether or not they won a Cup, then there's going to be a lot of failures out there. One could similarly point at plenty of elite-forward-focused teams that "have never gotten it done", such as San Jose, Dallas, Philadelphia before their current rebuild, and current Tampa Bay. Hell, Washington was the ur-example for a very long time.

When it comes to San Jose, Dallas, and Tampa Bay, their top forwards have historically not performed in the playoffs the way that top forwards on elite teams perform in the playoffs.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Much easier to find a #1D outside of the top-10 in the draft than a 1C.

 

[North Cole]

So some posters have been debating with me in the Provorov vs Barzal thread about which is more valuable and harder to find - a 1D or 1C.

Now I think its quite obvious considering 1D is a step above just top pair which is likely the equivalent of a 1C, but here we are discussing it. Some claims were made such as there are as many 1Ds as 1Cs and 1Cs are harder to find (which to me is ridiculous).

What do you think? Is a 1C harder to find than a 1D? Which is more valuable? How many 1Ds and 1Cs are there?

Honest opinion....I think 1D is more rare, but not because the position is harder, less guys play it, nor since it may be demanding etc.

I think its more rare because it is harder for people to accept someone as a 1D. We, as a community, have a lot of misconceptions or biases about defensemen. Handedness, height, physicality, etc. You look at a guy like Barzal (since you brought him up), hes a small dude that people say will struggle. Then he doesn't. So people say, wait until he gets harder QoC....point is, people are more willing to call him a 1C, why? Production.

It is much easier for forwards to be categorized and quantified based on the scoring race...or goals. Or zone starts. Or toi. You look at guys like Klefbom, Rielly, Ghost, etc. Fanbases swear by them, but when they get "value in a trade" questions, there is always a shadow cast about whether they are really 1D's. While teams like Nashville have 4 or 5... Art Ross finishes is a definitive measure of how good a Forward is offensively, but the Norris? Nah, that's mumbo jumbo hockey writer bias....

Long story short, we make 1d the rarer and more coveted position because we are less willing to anoint players to a 1D role. Doesn't necessarily mean they actually are rarer. Imo.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

The best defenseman in the NHL just got traded for peanuts. I think that strongly enforces the argument that #1 defensemen are much easier to acquire than #1 centers.

 

[Mickey Marner]

The best defenseman in the NHL just got traded for peanuts. I think that strongly enforces the argument that #1 defensemen are much easier to acquire than #1 centers.

Tavares switched teams too, but I agree with your general sentiments ITT. There are noticeably more all-time great centers that stuck with one team than there are defensemen. Lidstrom and Potvin are the only two defensemen I can think of since expansion.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Tavares switched teams too, but I agree with your general sentiments ITT. There are noticeably more all-time great centers that stuck with one team than there are defensemen. Lidstrom and Potvin are the only two defensemen I can think of since expansion.

Right, Karlsson is just one more to add to the list. And Karlsson is undebatably top-3 at his position and generally regarded as #1, while Tavares is roughly top-10.

 

[Slyfox]

Letang is a #1

 

[vanarchy]

For me it depends on how the rest of the team is built.

If I have a good keeper, I'll take the 1C over the 1D.

If I have a meh keeper, I would prioritize D first and worry about forwards after.

 

[BAM]

I think Vegas showed that if you have a mobile defense you don't need top names to be a legit team, I'd say a 1C holds more weight than a similarly ranked 1D. (A guy like McDavid has more value than a guy like Karlsson but a guy like Karlsson has more value than a guy like Tavares)

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I think Vegas showed that if you have a mobile defense you don't need top names to be a legit team, I'd say a 1C holds more weight than a similarly ranked 1D. (A guy like McDavid has more value than a guy like Karlsson but a guy like Karlsson has more value than a guy like Tavares)

Vegas is a fluke and they lost in the finals, they really showed nothing.

I agree on McDavid, Karlsson, and Tavares although I think McDavid is a much higher quality center than Karlsson a defenseman.

Probably because, by and large, elite centers show their elite nature almost immediately whereas elite defensemen doing the same thing are extraordinarily rare, and so it's easier to part with them before they become established as elite.

And yet the most elite defenseman on the planet, who had clearly shown his nature, just got traded for peanuts.

 

[BAM]

Vegas is a fluke and they lost in the finals, they really showed nothing.

I agree on McDavid, Karlsson, and Tavares although I think McDavid is a much higher quality center than Karlsson a defenseman.



And yet the most elite defenseman on the planet, who had clearly shown his nature, just got traded for peanuts.

Vegas isn't a fluke until they show last season was a fluke, until that they're still the reigning Western conference champs. The fact that they were overlooked last year should teach you something.

 

[BAM]

Vegas is a fluke and they lost in the finals, they really showed nothing.

I agree on McDavid, Karlsson, and Tavares although I think McDavid is a much higher quality center than Karlsson a defenseman.



And yet the most elite defenseman on the planet, who had clearly shown his nature, just got traded for peanuts.

He's a one year rental at this point who the Sens didn't want to trade to a EC team, that's a specific set of circumstances for that deal.

 

[Clatartar]

Penguins won the cup with Ron Hainsey playing 1d duties and Brian Dumolin playing 2d duties... umm.

 

[Bandit]

Name the last team to win a cup without an elite center?

2007 Ducks come to mind. Andy MacDonald was good, but certainly not "elite".