1C vs 1D - Value and Rarity

Nico the Draft Riser

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So some posters have been debating with me in the Provorov vs Barzal thread about which is more valuable and harder to find - a 1D or 1C.

Now I think its quite obvious considering 1D is a step above just top pair which is likely the equivalent of a 1C, but here we are discussing it. Some claims were made such as there are as many 1Ds as 1Cs and 1Cs are harder to find (which to me is ridiculous).

What do you think? Is a 1C harder to find than a 1D? Which is more valuable? How many 1Ds and 1Cs are there?
 

Filthy Dangles

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'1C' and '1D' are artificial terms that pigeonhole players into such labels. The label isn't even adequately defined. And is there a difference between the cringey "Legit 1D/1c" vs just a "1D/1c"?

If we assume 1d and 1c refers to a top15 defenseman and a top15 center, than it's the center who wins out. Just list out the 15 best D vs 15 best Centers and go each by each and it's apparent that centers are generally more valuable.
 

Nico the Draft Riser

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'1C' and '1D' are artificial terms that pigeonhole players into such labels. The label isn't even adequately defined. And is there a difference between the cringey "Legit 1D/1c" vs just a "1D/1c"?

If we assume 1d and 1c refers to a top15 defenseman and a top15 center, than it's the center who wins out. Just list out the 15 best D vs 15 best Centers and go each by each and it's apparent that centers are generally more valuable.
I think its quite cleara and has been defined relatively well on this site for quite some time

A 1C would be anyone able to play top line center efficiently enough. A 1D would be a defenseman who is an efficient top pair guy but is slightly better than a 2D..
 

Devil Dancer

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Doing absolutely no research, I feel like I've seen teams acquire 1Cs more often than 1Ds over the last decade or so.

Maybe someone can go through the 31 1Cs and 1Ds and compare the number that were acquired later v. drafted.
 

Nico the Draft Riser

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Doing absolutely no research, I feel like I've seen teams acquire 1Cs more often than 1Ds over the last decade or so.
I agree. Id even say there is likely close to 30 1Cs whereas I would bet there arent even 15-20 1Ds. Also look at any top 10-20 lists for centers and defenseman, defenseman lists dont vary year to year nearly as much as center lists seem to (granted this may be due to recency bias)
 

Absolut

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Truly depends on the player. There is no such thing as as generic value of 1D and 1C IMO. However, in terms of drafting teams will likely go for a potential 1C, because young D development is less predictable.
 

Filthy Dangles

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I think its quite cleara and has been defined relatively well on this site for quite some time

A 1C would be anyone able to play top line center efficiently enough. A 1D would be a defenseman who is an efficient top pair guy but is slightly better than a 2D..

Just because they've been perpetrated here and used for a while doesn't mean they aren't dumb or made up terms. You have to go on a case by case basis.
 

Nico the Draft Riser

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You don't think there are 15 #1D in the league. So you don't seem to be making a distinction between elite #1D and just your average 1D if you think there's 15 or less of them.
A 1D would be any player who can play top pair but is better than half of top pair defenseman. A 1C is any player capable and a fit for 1C.

I think its quite clear 1D is a step above and the equal comparison would be top pair vs 1C
 
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Sidney the Kidney

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A 1D would be any player who can play top pair but is better than half of top pair defenseman. A 1C is any player capable and a fit for 1C.

I think its quite clear 1D is a step above and the equal comparison would be top pair vs 1C

I honestly don't understand your explanation I bolded.

A 1D is someone who can play the top minutes on a team and not be playing above his talent level. It's no different than a 1C.
 

Nico the Draft Riser

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I honestly don't understand your explanation I bolded.

A 1D is someone who can play the top minutes on a team and not be playing above his talent level. It's no different than a 1C.
A top pair includes two guys. A 1C is a single player. A #1 > #2. Therefore a #1D would be better than half the other top pair dmen...

I think a more fair comparison is top pair vs 1C. Which even then is tough because it means more defenseman than centers since we cant include 2Cs (big talent discrepancy)
 

Sidney the Kidney

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A top pair includes two guys. A 1C is a single player. A #1 > #2. Therefore a #1D would be better than half the other top pair dmen...

I think a more fair comparison is top pair vs 1C. Which even then is tough because it means more defenseman than centers since we cant include 2Cs (big talent discrepancy)

I know the difference between a top pairing and a #1D. My point is you seem to think the only 1Ds in the league are the elite, perennial Norris trophy types. You poo poo'd at me mentioning guys like Krug, Werenski and Vlasic as 1D (even if they're low-end 1D).
 

TomasHertlsRooster

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Might as well copy and paste my detailed post from the other thread:

The only centers of Barzal’s caliber that have changed outside of the draft since the lockout are Joe Thornton, John Tavares, and Tyler Seguin. Two of those guys are goal scoring centers who do not have the dynamic playmaking ability that Barzal does and Barzal has already played at roughly the same level of player as those two.

Meanwhile, for defensemen in that same time frame, you’ve got Zdeno Chara, Ryan Suter, Brent Burns, Scott Niedermayer, Chris Pronger, PK Subban, and Shea Weber; just 7 Norris finalists/winners off the top of my head that have been traded or signed in UFA. Then you’ve got Seth Jones, Dougie Hamilton, and Dustin Byfuglien as guys who were all pretty close to that level.

Since the lockout, 10 defensemen comparable to Provorov have changed hands through trade or UFA and only 3 centers comparable to Barzal have changed hands through trade or UFA in that some time frame. #1 playmaking centers are definitely more difficult to find than elite two-way defensemen. I don’t see how anybody can realistically dispute that with the data we have. Then we move onto your other point; the defenseman being more valuable than the center. That’s also the opposite of the truth.

Carolina in 2006, Pittsburgh in 2017, and Washington in 2018 all won with a #1 defenseman notably inferior to Provorov. Meanwhile, only Anaheim in 2007 won with a #1C who you can argue is worse than Barzal, and even then, Andy MacDonald and Ryan Getzlaf are both debatably comparable to Barzal.

#1 centers are more valuable and more difficult to acquire than #1 defensemen. I also think Barzal is a better center than Provorov is a defensemen so that makes it a little easier for me but I’m still picking Barzal with no questions asked.
 

Absolut

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A top pair includes two guys. A 1C is a single player. A #1 > #2. Therefore a #1D would be better than half the other top pair dmen...

I think a more fair comparison is top pair vs 1C. Which even then is tough because it means more defenseman than centers since we cant include 2Cs (big talent discrepancy)
It's not rare to see a significantly less skilled 2D on the top pairing. The fact that there are two D on the pairing doesn't diminish the value of 1D. Unless of course we are talking about the top pairing of Provorov & MacDonald, where both players are equally fantastic. :naughty:
 
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Nico the Draft Riser

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I know the difference between a top pairing and a #1D. My point is you seem to think the only 1Ds in the league are the elite, perennial Norris trophy types. You poo poo'd at me mentioning guys like Krug, Werenski and Vlasic as 1D (even if they're low-end 1D).
Well not exactly, I just dont think those few names I disagreed with are even top pair guys. All three are #3s as I see it and im sure they can grow.

But yes, I essentially do think #1Ds tend to be only elite. Norris worthy I wont comment on because its very much a respect-based award
 

SniperHF

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It depends entirely on the talent pool of the league at the time and depth at the positions.
Right now I'd say the average #1 C is worth more than the average #1D.
 

Nico the Draft Riser

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It depends entirely on the talent pool of the league at the time and depth at the positions.
Right now I'd say the average #1 C is worth more than the average #1D.
fair enough, but let me ask

If you said (which you didnt, hypothetical) there are ~30 1Cs and ~15 1Ds, wouldnt that then peg the average 1D higher than a 1C? Or are you of the belief that most 1Cs are worth more than most 1Ds?
 

SniperHF

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If you said (which you didnt, hypothetical) there are ~30 1Cs and ~15 1Ds, wouldnt that then peg the average 1D higher than a 1C? Or are you of the belief that most 1Cs are worth more than most 1Ds?

It could. But it still depends on the quality.
If the depth at the D position is sufficiently weak that even the best #1 defenseman at a time are not having the same on-ice impact as the top D in other eras or the centers are ahead then the center still has more value even if the D are rarer.
I think the value side is more determined by what's happening on ice than the rarity, though rarity plays a part.

Right now I don't think it's terribly lopsided in favor of centers, but they have the edge. Mostly at the high end.
 

Viqsi

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Since the lockout, 10 defensemen comparable to Provorov have changed hands through trade or UFA and only 3 centers comparable to Barzal have changed hands through trade or UFA in that some time frame.
Probably because, by and large, elite centers show their elite nature almost immediately whereas elite defensemen doing the same thing are extraordinarily rare, and so it's easier to part with them before they become established as elite.
 

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