Prospect Info: 190th - Brett Stapley

[Adam Michaels]

I agree with the main point but ppg in the NCAA doesn't really compare with ppg in junior or the AHL. Going ppg in junior at 20 isn't much of an achievement while ppg in the NCAA is pretty good, and ppg is rare in the AHL for any significant time, other than guys like Corey Locke, because guys get called up.

I agree that going ppg on a stacked team at 23 isn't indicative of a major prospect.

And that's the crux of the debate. Being a PPG player at 23 on a stacked team, where there were 4 PPG players and 3 others who scored at a 0.9 PPG pace is not an argument to say this guy is anything special.

But the point I'm making is that Anthony Richard, Mitchell Stephens, and Nate Schnarr have been successful at their levels before turning pro and they are depth in the system. They're the 5th, 6th, and 7th options at center if things go awry on the big club.

That's not to take anything away from Stapley, but to make a stink that he's not signed is an odd argument.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Who knew 25 year old retreads like Stephens and Richard had such fans. If you are a 32nd place team should you not be developing prospects? Who is being developed in Laval? Hillis is as the 5 c? Pinard as a 4liner project? Ylonen as a third liner?
In Montreal, Caufield, Dach, Harris and Barron? Maybe Slaf? time to move out vets and develop prospects

So you're out here saying RHP is a 4th liner project, Ylonen is a 3rd liner. Hillis is a 5th C. And you're out here championing Brett f'n Stapley?

Since you're the Stapley guy here, I want you to tell us all what has Stapley improved on since he started NCAA in 2018-19 up until this past year. It will help us all understand what Habs are missing out on.

Don't mention his production or his age. We can all research that and we are all very aware of them. He's 23 years old and put up 43 pts in 41 games.

I want you to explain to us the progression in Stapley's game. And please, give details because we'll be able to tell if you're just writing words or if you're being honest.

 

[WeThreeKings]

What you are not answering is who is developing in Laval as a centre. i will help you. Nobody. Maybe you missed that small point. The team should be developing players so the age and cap windows align. That window is 18 to 23. Deep cuts are required to reset the team; including buying out contracts. The wild and hawks are taking different paths to the reset. Not much action in Montreal on a relative basis.

It could be Mesar, we don't know.
Mysak will be at center.
Hillis could be too.

Also Stapley isn't a center, if he plays he's a winger.

You can't force center development when the MB team didn't do a good job of drafting and identifying centers.

Kidney will be there in a year.

 

[Goal Caufield50]

It could be Mesar, we don't know.
Mysak will be at center.
Hillis could be too.

Also Stapley isn't a center, if he plays he's a winger.

You can't force center development when the MB team didn't do a good job of drafting and identifying centers.

Kidney will be there in a year.

Read the Stapley bio from the Denver pioneers site….second on team with 318 faceoff wins…….526 faceoff win percentage…..sure sounds like a centre…led team in penalty minutes, academic all American all four yeas… 13th place in NCAA scoring….and you are supporting retreads at 25 years old in a massive rebuilding period. They finished 32nd. i agree you don’t know much. Yes you can force a rebuild at centre and everywhere else for that matter.

Stephens: Richard and Schnarr are blocking development and they will never be on the roster in Montreal for more than a cup of coffee.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Read the Stapley bio from the Denver pioneers site….second on team with 318 faceoff wins…….526 faceoff win percentage…..sure sounds like a centre…led team in penalty minutes, academic all American all four yeas… 13th place in NCAA scoring….and you are supporting retreads at 25 years old in a massive rebuilding period. They finished 32nd. i agree you don’t know much. Yes you can force a rebuild at centre and everywhere else for that matter.

Stephens: Richard and Schnarr are blocking development

You know why an overwhelming majority of prospects are listed at center in the draft, even though not very many actually stick there in the AHL and the NHL? Because at lower levels, often the more talented players play down the middle and as they progress, they get moved to the wing where their game is more effective.

It's a lot like Shortstop in baseball. A lot of players are listed at SS then get moved to 3B, 2B and sometimes LF or RF. Brett Stapley, if you've watched any of his games (which I'm really assuming you haven't at this point), would not be a player developed in the middle anywhere in the AHL or NHL should he possess the talent and qualities needed to play at those levels.

None of those players are blocking any sort of development. Do you believe if we had drafted Logan Cooley, for example, and started him in the AHL, that they would forego his development to keep Schnarr above him? The answer is no. The Habs will give the AHL minutes and positions to those who are deserving and require it.

What you don't want to do is have no NHL viable centers anywhere in your organization beyond the 4/5 you keep on the NHL team. One injury could force you to bring a prospect up to play center when they aren't ready. Haven't you watched enough of the MB and Lefebvre era to know that constant disruptions and forcing players into situations they aren't ready for is actually COUNTER to development?

It seems, really, at this point, you are advocating that the Habs just have an AHL team full of 20/21 year olds with no NHL experience in the name of 'development' because we were the 32nd placed team in the NHL last year.

Brett Stapley has not exhibited any progression in his ability that would warrant a contract, let alone playing above any of the veteran players they've acquired to insulate the Habs and the prospects at the AHL level. The Habs organization opted for Condotta instead and Condotta got playing time last year.

This is actually getting to the point of a ridiculous discussion it reminds me of arguing with Harry K who was convinced Keiran Ruscheinski was a legitimate NHL prospect when there was no evidence to support he was even selected with potential in mind.

Brett Stapley is not a prospect worth a contract.
You can't have your team be bereft of NHL experience down the middle because injuries happen.
The Habs are not going to compromise the development of their promising prospects to play AHL vets above them.
It is a good thing for development to provide a stable environment and reduce the chances of a prospect having a productive AHL period interrupted by a NHL call-up or being thrust into a position where they won't be successful.

 

[WeThreeKings]

 

[Adam Michaels]

Stapley would be lucky if he ends up like Richard or Stephens.

Talking about a team that is rebuilding, yet he's here advocating for someone who will turn 24 this season.

Complaining that these guys are 25-year old retreads, meanwhile Stapley will be 25 in a year and a half.

I'm still waiting for this analysis on Stapley's game that we're all missing that warrants a contract.

 

[Treb]

What you are not answering is who is developing in Laval as a centre. i will help you. Nobody. Maybe you missed that small point. The team should be developing players so the age and cap windows align. That window is 18 to 23. Deep cuts are required to reset the team; including buying out contracts. The wild and hawks are taking different paths to the reset. Not much action in Montreal on a relative basis.

Tucson Roadrunners:
Adam Cracknell, 32
JS Dea, 28
Ronald Knot, 28
Laurent Dauphin, 27
Lukas Klok, 27
Michael Carcone, 26
Bokonji Imama, 26
Cameron Hebig, 25
Colin Theisen, 25
Cam Dineen, 24

Rockford Icehogs:
Garrett Mitchell, 30
Buddy Robinson, 30
Adam Clendening, 29
Cliff Watson, 28
Dave Gust, 28
Dylan Sykora, 27
Luke Philp, 26
Brett Seney, 26
Seamus Malone, 26
Morgan Adams-Moisan, 25
Carson Gicewicz, 25
Kale Howarth, 25
Bobby Lynch, 24

Iowa Wild
Joseph Cramarossa, 29
Steven Fogarty, 29
Brandon Baddock, 27
Matt Murphy, 27
Patrick Curry, 26
Kevin Conley, 25
Turner Ottenbreit, 25
Nick Swaney, 24
Ben Finkelstein, 24
Ty Ronning, 24
Mike O'Leary, 24
Mitchell Chaffee, 24
Tanner Kaspick, 24
Mitchell Balmas, 24

Cs are bolded.

Please tell me more about how these teams are developing 20-23 years old and not blocking the C position (and the other positions) at the AHL level.

Also pretty funny to see your drum banging about 20-23 years old and that 24-25 years old are done for a guy that turns 24 4 months into the season. A guy who is older than Schnarr who you said is done.

 

[HABitual Fan]

Stapley would be lucky if he ends up like Richard or Stephens.

Talking about a team that is rebuilding, yet he's here advocating for someone who will turn 24 this season.

Complaining that these guys are 25-year old retreads, meanwhile Stapley will be 25 in a year and a half.

I'm still waiting for this analysis on Stapley's game that we're all missing that warrants a contract.

I agree with what you are saying, but it is also clear that HuGo let go a bunch of contracts this offseason and signed very few players. In terms of current ability, Stapley is probably the equivalent of the guys signed to 2 way AHL contracts. With a few contract spots still available, I would take a chance on him and see how he does as a Pro in 3R instead of tossing him onto the scrap heap outright. Worst case scenario he occupies the spot next year that Hillis will vacate. I think it is part of a long term development strategy to try and find our own group of career AHLers to surround the true prospects when they are in Laval and offer some continuity to the team when these prospects move on to the NHL. The only way to do that, is to throw a few extra darts when you have the possibility and hope something sticks.

We don't know whether it was a personal or team decision, but it is clear that counting on the local players to sign and fill these spots is a flawed strategy. As much as they liked playing close to home, they are still looking for multiyear NHL contracts with teams where they have a chance to be called up and gain the extra perks. That so many signed elsewhere, is a sign that these types of players look at the depth chart and see that their future would be in Laval only with no chance of NHL time.

As long as signing these types of players does not handcuff you in terms of retaining the prospects that have a higher priority and upside, not making use of the contract spots (leaving a couple spots open for trades, NCAA free agent signings etc...) seems to me to be a waste of an asset. Big difference between signing a player after 4 NCAA years and having to give a 3 year entry level deal to a CHL product.

 

[Treb]

I agree with what you are saying, but it is also clear that HuGo let go a bunch of contracts this offseason and signed very few players. In terms of current ability, Stapley is probably the equivalent of the guys signed to 2 way AHL contracts. With a few contract spots still available, I would take a chance on him and see how he does as a Pro in 3R instead of tossing him onto the scrap heap outright. Worst case scenario he occupies the spot next year that Hillis will vacate. I think it is part of a long term development strategy to try and find our own group of career AHLers to surround the true prospects when they are in Laval and offer some continuity to the team when these prospects move on to the NHL. The only way to do that, is to throw a few extra darts when you have the possibility and hope something sticks.

We don't know whether it was a personal or team decision, but it is clear that counting on the local players to sign and fill these spots is a flawed strategy. As much as they liked playing close to home, they are still looking for multiyear NHL contracts with teams where they have a chance to be called up and gain the extra perks. That so many signed elsewhere, is a sign that these types of players look at the depth chart and see that their future would be in Laval only with no chance of NHL time.

As long as signing these types of players does not handcuff you in terms of retaining the prospects that have a higher priority and upside, not making use of the contract spots (leaving a couple spots open for trades, NCAA free agent signings etc...) seems to me to be a waste of an asset. Big difference between signing a player after 4 NCAA years and having to give a 3 year entry level deal to a CHL product.

I don't think anyone would be against Stapley getting an AHL deal.

However, a 2-year ELC might complicate things because we have so many guys to sign in that period. That's one advantage Condotta has since he is a 1-year ELC and thus won't block the 2023 and 2024 summer signings.

 

[HABitual Fan]

Tucson Roadrunners:
Adam Cracknell, 32
JS Dea, 28
Ronald Knot, 28
Laurent Dauphin, 27
Lukas Klok, 27
Michael Carcone, 26
Bokonji Imama, 26
Cameron Hebig, 25
Colin Theisen, 25
Cam Dineen, 24

Rockford Icehogs:
Garrett Mitchell, 30
Buddy Robinson, 30
Adam Clendening, 29
Cliff Watson, 28
Dave Gust, 28
Dylan Sykora, 27
Luke Philp, 26
Brett Seney, 26
Seamus Malone, 26
Morgan Adams-Moisan, 25
Carson Gicewicz, 25
Kale Howarth, 25
Bobby Lynch, 24

Iowa Wild
Joseph Cramarossa, 29
Steven Fogarty, 29
Brandon Baddock, 27
Matt Murphy, 27
Patrick Curry, 26
Kevin Conley, 25
Turner Ottenbreit, 25
Nick Swaney, 24
Ben Finkelstein, 24
Ty Ronning, 24
Mike O'Leary, 24
Mitchell Chaffee, 24
Tanner Kaspick, 24
Mitchell Balmas, 24

Cs are bolded.

Please tell me more about how these teams are developing 20-23 years old and not blocking the C position (and the other positions) at the AHL level.

Also pretty funny to see your drum banging about 20-23 years old and that 24-25 years old are done for a guy that turns 24 4 months into the season. A guy who is older than Schnarr who you said is done.

Having our own ECHL team will be huge in this regard as well. It is only the 2nd year and the organization will learn how to best make use of the team in time. Last year was all local players in the 25-26 range that met what 3R were looking for, and to be insurance for Laval in case of injuries and callups. This year there are a few younger ones, and 3R itself has transitioned from the all local flavor with their own signings. I hope in time it will be similar to when we had Cincinnati and Wheeling and had a large group of players auditioning for AHL and NHL contracts, and were much younger.

 

[HABitual Fan]

I don't think anyone would be against Stapley getting an AHL deal.

However, a 2-year ELC might complicate things because we have so many guys to sign in that period. That's one advantage Condotta has since he is a 1-year ELC and thus won't block the 2023 and 2024 summer signings.

It is only '23 that is affected, in '24 you can let him walk if he did not progress. This year there really isn't that many to sign, and hopefully as they clear out the bad contracts, they won't be forced to take players who have longer term deals in return, so those contract spots will also be available. Similar to the two that came over in the deals with Calgary and Edmonton.

 

[Treb]

It is only '23 that is affected, in '24 you can let him walk if he did not progress. This year there really isn't that many to sign, and hopefully as they clear out the bad contracts, they won't be forced to take players who have longer term deals in return, so those contract spots will also be available. Similar to the two that came over in the deals with Calgary and Edmonton.

We will be at 45 contracts after Dach and Primeau sign.

Roy and Kidney slide will end.
Mailloux, Dichow, Simoneau, Struble, Trudeau and Vrbetic are all due contracts in 2023.
Gorniak and Henrikson as well but probably not signed.
Farrell probably sign as well.

That's 9 (up to 11) contracts right there.

We need to free at least 4 spots to fit the likely signing and that would leave us with no space. That means we either replace Drouin/Byron/Dadonov internally (which we don't have really many ready forward prospects), we lose a bunch of AHL vets in the summer or we give up on some prospects (either the one who need ELC or the RFAs).

Signing Stapley just force another decision and I don't think he's worth a contract spot in our situation.

 

[Adam Michaels]

I agree with what you are saying, but it is also clear that HuGo let go a bunch of contracts this offseason and signed very few players. In terms of current ability, Stapley is probably the equivalent of the guys signed to 2 way AHL contracts. With a few contract spots still available, I would take a chance on him and see how he does as a Pro in 3R instead of tossing him onto the scrap heap outright. Worst case scenario he occupies the spot next year that Hillis will vacate. I think it is part of a long term development strategy to try and find our own group of career AHLers to surround the true prospects when they are in Laval and offer some continuity to the team when these prospects move on to the NHL. The only way to do that, is to throw a few extra darts when you have the possibility and hope something sticks.

We don't know whether it was a personal or team decision, but it is clear that counting on the local players to sign and fill these spots is a flawed strategy. As much as they liked playing close to home, they are still looking for multiyear NHL contracts with teams where they have a chance to be called up and gain the extra perks. That so many signed elsewhere, is a sign that these types of players look at the depth chart and see that their future would be in Laval only with no chance of NHL time.

As long as signing these types of players does not handcuff you in terms of retaining the prospects that have a higher priority and upside, not making use of the contract spots (leaving a couple spots open for trades, NCAA free agent signings etc...) seems to me to be a waste of an asset. Big difference between signing a player after 4 NCAA years and having to give a 3 year entry level deal to a CHL product.

If they sign Stapley to an AHL deal, where he can play in Laval or 3R, that's fine. But not signing him to anything makes zero difference.

I don't know how signing local players is a flawed strategy, when you have guys like Belzile, Martel, Bourque, Gignac, and Poulin who all were key players for the Rocket.

Laval already will have a lot of prospects. They need to surround them with players with experience.

This year, Laval will have RHP, Ylonen, Mysak, Simoneau, Hillis, Primeau, Norlinder, Fairbrother, and Xhekaj. Then you have the prospects like Guhle, Harris, and Barron. They might have one or two in Montreal, but the one(s) that isn't will be in Laval. You also have Heineman, who will likely return to Sweden if he doesn't make the Habs, but he might agree to stay to play in Laval. And to finish, there are Mesar and Slaf (one or both could end up in Laval).

You need vets and guys with experience to help guide these guys.


Then you have to look at what's coming next year: Farrell, Smilanic, Tourigny, and Struble. They will have Roy and Kidney who will be eligible to play in Laval. Then you have Simoneau and Vrbetic, who might earn their ELC's after signing AHL deals this year. Then you have Biondi and Dobes, who might turn pro next year, too.

 

[Goal Caufield50]

And that's the crux of the debate. Being a PPG player at 23 on a stacked team, where there were 4 PPG players and 3 others who scored at a 0.9 PPG pace is not an argument to say this guy is anything special.

But the point I'm making is that Anthony Richard, Mitchell Stephens, and Nate Schnarr have been successful at their levels before turning pro and they are depth in the system. They're the 5th, 6th, and 7th options at center if things go awry on the big club.

That's not to take anything away from Stapley, but to make a stink that he's not signed is an odd argument.

The argument is centre and all positions in the Montreal organizational structure are at best problematic. That happens when you finish 32nd in a 32 team league. Hopefully we can agree on that. I have heard
in this thread we have 14 nhl forwards. Wow I say and also we need massive change and redevelopment of the team and system. Any business looks at this. Strategically how do you have a ranger 3 or 4 year rebuild or the 10 year build of a Buffalo? To my point you surgically cut much like rangers did and buyout players and trade veterans for prospects. Buy out Byron to play Ylonen. Buy out Drouin to play Staf. Trade Anderson for a good pick. Is a trade for Byron and Drouin going to get you any assets at the deadline? I highly doubt it. Get rid of the non productive assets and play prospects like staf and Ylonen or whoever else.
hughes did well on Chariot, Lehky, Kulak and Toff. He did not do well on Petry IMHO. He needs to get rid of Hoffman, Byron, Armia trio. Tank for two years and draft and develop. create A 18- 23 window in a five year plan. Hughes did the easy work in the good players he sold. Selling the not so good takes courage and conviction. I have not seen any of those attributes. Going part way never works. Right now it is still a tire fire.

 

[Adam Michaels]

The argument is centre and all positions in the Montreal organizational structure are at best problematic. That happens when you finish 32nd in a 32 team league. Hopefully we can agree on that. I have heard
in this thread we have 14 nhl forwards. Wow I say and also we need massive change and redevelopment of the team and system. Any business looks at this. Strategically how do you have a ranger 3 or 4 year rebuild or the 10 year build of a Buffalo? To my point you surgically cut much like rangers did and buyout players and trade veterans for prospects. Buy out Byron to play Ylonen. Buy out Drouin to play Staf. Trade Anderson for a good pick. Is a trade for Byron and Drouin going to get you any assets at the deadline? I highly doubt it. Get rid of the non productive assets and play prospects like staf and Ylonen or whoever else.
hughes did well on Chariot, Lehky, Kulak and Toff. He did not do well on Petry IMHO. He needs to get rid of Hoffman, Byron, Armia trio. Tank for two years and draft and develop. create A 18- 23 window in a five year plan. Hughes did the easy work in the good players he sold. Selling the not so good takes courage and conviction. I have not seen any of those attributes. Going part way never works. Right now it is still a tire fire.

I'm still waiting to hear about Stapley's progression. What is it about his game that the Habs will miss out on?

Everything else has just become bla bla bla.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I'm still waiting to hear about Stapley's progression. What is it about his game that the Habs will miss out on?

Everything else has just become bla bla bla.

His plan is to add cap penalties to an already bungled cap structure to remove two expiring contracts from the roster immediately.

 

[Goal Caufield50]

His plan is to add cap penalties to an already bungled cap structure to remove two expiring contracts from the roster immediately.

teams change decisively. If you at the Rangers under Gorton you can see the process and educate yourself. The wild did it with Suter and praise. The are resetting the team to increase success. Chicago is reset selling young talent. They understand there is a cap and an age window. My point is If you don’t let the Ylonen and Staf et al play to develop your windows will not form or align and you fail. Hughes has made easy decisions and has not made any tough calls. These calls are not easy but they have to be done. You can also wonder why Gorton is not still in Boston or New York.

 

[Treb]

teams change decisively. If you at the Rangers under Gorton you can see the process and educate yourself. The wild did it with Suter and praise. The are resetting the team to increase success. Chicago is reset selling young talent. They understand there is a cap and an age window. My point is If you don’t let the Ylonen and Staf et al play to develop your windows will not form or align and you fail. Hughes has made easy decisions and has not made any tough calls. These calls are not easy but they have to be done. You can also wonder why Gorton is not still in Boston or New York.

And how are we preventing them from being developed? By not giving them roster spot on a silver platter?

If Slaf/Ylonen do significantly better than the winger we have, Hughes will make space.

If not, they will get plenty of playing time in the AHL.

Also, I'd wait for the results of the Wild and Chicago strategy before declaring them geniuses. To me, they both did big mistake with the way they handled their retool/rebuild.

Trading Suter @50% for future considerations (or even with some late pick attached) would have been better (and pretty much the same for Dallas cap wise and way better money wise) than buying him out. Instead they get almost no relief for the duration of the contract and 833k for 4 years after.

Debrincat was young enough to fit whatever rebuild they wanted to do. More than that, they still have Seth Jones for 8 years so they're not even going scorched earth properly.

 

[Goal Caufield50]

And how are we preventing them from being developed? By not giving them roster spot on a silver platter?

If Slaf/Ylonen do significantly better than the winger we have, Hughes will make space.

If not, they will get plenty of playing time in the AHL.

Also, I'd wait for the results of the Wild and Chicago strategy before declaring them geniuses. To me, they both did big mistake with the way they handled their retool/rebuild.

Trading Suter @50% for future considerations (or even with some late pick attached) would have been better (and pretty much the same for Dallas cap wise and way better money wise) than buying him out. Instead they get almost no relief for the duration of the contract and 833k for 4 years after.

Debrincat was young enough to fit whatever rebuild they wanted to do. More than that, they still have Seth Jones for 8 years so they're not even going scorched earth properly.

I would explain further just don't think you would understand

 

[Agalloch]

I would sign him to a AHL/ECHL deal if he finds no nhl deal.

 

[Treb]

I would explain further just don't think you would understand

Considering how you "explained" your reasoning in this thread, you're probably right.

 

[Goal Caufield50]

Considering how you "explained" your reasoning in this thread, you're probably right.

You do make me laugh

 

[Treb]

You do make me laugh

Everyone countered your points and all you have done is dug your hole deeper. You never provided an actual retort, just hammered your points repeatedly and made reference to the Wild/Blackhawks rebuild/retool which have shown no results as of yet.

When asked to give an actual hockey report on Stapley, you fell back to stating stats, which just put more doubts in your actual knowledge about the player.

Reminds me of when I was pumping Alexander Avstin tires when I was 18 years old without ever watching him play. Good times.

Anyway, tick tock 3 days left.

 

[Adam Michaels]

The rights to Stapley expire today. However, if he opts to return to the NCAA for a 5th year, the Habs will retain his rights for another year. Due to COVID, college players can choose to play a 5th year.

Gorniak's rights were set to expire today, as well. However, he elected to go back to Wisconsin for a 5th year and as a result, Habs hold onto his rights for another year.

So far, no word on if Stapley will go back to Denver or if he will look to turn pro and sign somewhere. If he does choose to turn pro, it won't be with the Habs (unless he signs an AHL to play in Laval or 3R).