GDT: 10/3/13 - Los Angeles @ Minnesota - 7:00 PM CDT - NBCSN/TSN2

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Gaps

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Oct 3, 2012
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Offensive force? I'm never going to be waiting for Koivu to be an offensive force because that isn't him as a player. That isn't his game. You people who keep waiting around for the guy to score 30 goals and get 100 points are ridiculous. Koivu is complimentary offensive player on a top line. He is a good playmaker, makes good passes, and has good drive to the net. There is nothing about Koivu offensively that is elite. He is an all-around good player and a fantastic two-way center men. Koivu's game allows players like Parise and Pomminville to be more aggressive offensively. Sure there is an expectation of offensive production. He should put in 60-70 points a season, possibly topping out at 80 if he really breaks out. He has consistently found himself in that range. The guy isn't Henrik Sedin or Claude Giroux and he never will be. Clearly GM's around the league and all Koivu's teammates appreciate his game and the level at which he plays. The constant nagging at the guy and attacking his leadership ability because he doesn't score 40 goals a season or carry the team to the playoffs single handily are absurd. Parise certainly had a down year by his standards last year and managed what? one point in the playoffs. Where is all the criticism for him? He's getting paid significantly more for longer term than Koivu and he's supposed to be a goal scorer. This team has absolutely sucked for years and now we are finally competitive with a lot to be excited about and still just nothing but ridiculous complaints. It's getting really old.

Instead of saying what I truly want to say, I'll just say 'Amen' to this.

This is not exactly the first slow start Koivu's had in his career so I don't understand this overreaction. I also don't understand how he always ends up with all the blame. Coyle messed up so badly it led to a goal last night, but apparently Koivu is the reason we lost and Coyle is perfect (and I'm not blaming the loss on Coyle, just to clarify).
 

Generic User

How's your burger?
Jul 7, 2009
9,836
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Uncanny Valley
Coyle played very, very well. Beastly. Brodin was dreamy once again. Liked what I saw from Nino for his first game in green. Had some great puck movement and anticipation with Granlund. Parise looked eager. A game we should've won. Oh well. Lots to build off of.
 

Jarick

Doing Nothing
That's not what people are saying and you know it.

It's not a one-night thing. Koivu has looked slow the last year or two. He looked very slow late last year while he went on to score zero goals for the month of April and no points in the playoffs. Last night was a continuation of that trend.

This team is slow. It's been slow forever. That's a big problem. When you have too many players who are slow, you don't get odd man rushes, and that's a big part of scoring in the modern NHL. Players are too big, fast, and smart to be able to tic tac toe at even strength. You need to attack on the rush, off turnovers, etc.

Parise is a very fast player and his speed is a weapon, but if Koivu can't keep up (and Pominville to a lesser extent as he's faster than Koivu but still not fast), that's just going to limit his production and the team's overall.

Maybe you end up with something like this:

Parise - Coyle - Nino
Granlund - Koivu - Pominville
Cooke - Brodziak - Heatley


I think Parise and Coyle can play a versatile game, either N-S or E-W. But both have speed and that will work nicely on the rush. I think Nino's the next best option in terms of speed and skill on the roster to complement them.

Pominville to me is a finisher who can get into position and put the puck in the net. Great shot and I think he will go as far as his linemates. Granlund and Koivu both play at average to below average speed but both can control the puck very well, perhaps they can do well to slow down the pace of the game around them. I could see some very good puck movement out of those two and then Pominville finishing off plays.

Heatley would be the odd man out but luckily is on the last year of his contract. He might as well be in a friggin wheelchair out there.
 

Fallenity

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Apr 12, 2011
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Apparently Granlund got awarded the second assist for the second goal also, so a 0+2 night for him.
 

651*

Guest
But... why won't Heatley move his feet :( Atleast a little bit.

Thoughts from last night:

Team looked pretty sloppy and wasn't playing with much urgency. Lots of bad passes that killed any kind of flow or momentum out there. Lots of rust to shake off.

Top line was not good. Koivu looked slow. Even my friend who really likes Koivu was down on his game. Parise was fine, really looked like he wanted to play at a quicker pace than his linemates. Pominville was not good. He was terrible in his end, not getting in lanes, not challenging the shooter at the point, and was responsible for Doughty's goal. He had some nice moments offensively but couldn't get a lot going. He also got tossed around a bit too much.

Second line was up and down. I liked Coyle's game overall, he had some nice moments, except of course when he got burned in the neutral zone which led to the second goal. Nino is a hell of a lot better than Clutter but still looked pretty raw. He could use a quicker first step but offensive skills and instincts are good. Heatley looked as slow and lazy as I've ever seen him. He's got a good shot and made one nice play in the defensive zone to start the breakout and that's it.

Third line was my favorite of the night. They had the most speed overall and showed up to play. Granlund did look a little out of sync with them, especially speed-wise, but he does look better and stronger than he did last year. Cooke was outstanding. He made so many great little plays in his end, blocking shots, steering pucks to teammates for a breakout, good passes, smart and timely hits, he was possibly the best forward out there. Brodziak had a good game as well. This line constantly drove pressure up the ice and often finished in the other team's end.

Fourth line was okay, kind of ineffective. Konopka didn't do anything dumb. Fontaine struggled, kind of like he was not ready for the speed of the game. Mitchell was fine overall.

Suter and Brodin picked up where they left off. A lot of great plays, some small, some big, just a very good game overall. Sure they had a couple gaffes in their end in terms of positioning and were bailed out by good saves, but overall they looked very good.

Scandella and Spurgeon were decent. Spurgeon I thought looked good on the PP and was able to handle some pretty terrible passes, not to mention good puck movement up the ice. Scandy played with a little bit of an edge and has size but Spurgeon is obviously a much better defenseman on this pairing.

Ballard and Stoner were...interesting? Ballard made some great plays and then some terrible plays. Very up and down. Stoner I thought played well overall.

Backstrom looked pretty good. Made the first saves, made some clutch saves, didn't look too frightening. First goal was just a perfect shot that was kind of screened (by Pominville and/or Ballard I think). Second goal Backs made a couple saves but the D couldn't clear the crease and a rebound was tucked in.

The PP was maybe a bit better but still not where it needs to be. They seemed to put themselves into a corner a lot and were running out of room. The puck movement was good but they need to exploit an aggressive PK because everyone's going to play that way. I'd like to see more movement off the half wall, more people moving their skates, more guys getting into the slot, less play behind the goal line, and fewer passes forced through the middle. Pominville and Brodin had some good shots, obviously Brodin scored but his shot looks better this year. I liked Granlund's puck movement, clearly he's good in that area. But overall they still need to have a more aggressive mindset on the PP.

Shootout was disappointing. Parise ran out of room. Koivu's move was easily read. Backstrom couldn't make a stop. Just a huge letdown and you could tell from the crowd.

Speaking of which, crowd was very much on edge. Noisy and excited at times, but clearly not happy with the play of the Wild in the third, especially on the PP, and the sloppiness in overtime. The fans expect a lot from this team and they didn't live up to the expectations.

Once again, the X seems to have cranked up their PA to the point of distorting, which was annoying. I don't understand why they have to make it so loud in there. I've probably been to too many games so a lot of the novelty has worn off. Arena is still excellent but they NEED a new HD scoreboard.

Overall, team has a ways to go. I would give the lines maybe 4-5 more games to see if they start clicking, otherwise I would think about mixing it up. Team needs to play with more speed and urgency.

Spark notes. :sarcasm:
 

Caior89

Registered User
Mar 31, 2011
1,520
2
Apparently Granlund got awarded the second assist for the second goal also, so a 0+2 night for him.

:yo:

I will never understand all the Koivu hype. Every year is the same thing!
Slow start, then he goes on PPG streak and towards the end cools off again.
 

ThatGuy22

Registered User
Oct 11, 2011
10,521
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Lot of over-reaction to one game. Far to early to begin any sweeping analysis of the team.

Every team is going to win 30, every team is going to lose 30. Its the other 22 games that matter.:laugh:
 

BusQuets

Registered User
Jul 16, 2010
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Also my reaction when some posters are demanding Parise, Koivu and Pominville's head after one game.


vzJxQxc.gif
 

MuckOG

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May 18, 2012
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Also my reaction when some posters are demanding Parise, Koivu and Pominville's head after one game.


vzJxQxc.gif

If there's an overreaction, it has more to do with those who think the fans who offer critical comments of a player are "demanding their heads".

Nobody has said that Koivu should be benched or traded. Just pointing out what we saw...he looked slow. If you want to call that an overreaction, that's up to you.
 

BusQuets

Registered User
Jul 16, 2010
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If there's an overreaction, it has more to do with those who think the fans who offer critical comments of a player are "demanding their heads".

Nobody has said that Koivu should be benched or traded. Just pointing out what we saw...he looked slow. If you want to call that an overreaction, that's up to you.

Koivu is slow, parise is small and doesn't know how to elevate the puck in front of the goalie and pominville is invisible. If these come as a surprise to someone they haven't been watching these players the last couple of years.
 

Billy Mays Here*

Guest
Apparently Granlund got awarded the second assist for the second goal also, so a 0+2 night for him.

This is exactly what my dad was wondering about while we were at the game. He thought Granlund should've gotten an assist and said they might change it later.
 

MuckOG

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May 18, 2012
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Koivu is slow, parise is small and doesn't know how to elevate the puck in front of the goalie and pominville is invisible. If these come as a surprise to someone they haven't been watching these players the last couple of years.

Pominville "invisible" the last couple of years? Really? The guy is one of the most consistent performers in the game.
 

BusQuets

Registered User
Jul 16, 2010
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Pominville "invisible" the last couple of years? Really? The guy is one of the most consistent performers in the game.

Invisible on the game but on the score sheet. Just his play style, he kinda lurks his chances.
 

LemaireisGOD

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Jul 19, 2010
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Nowhere, WI
Even funnier...

Offensive force? I'm never going to be waiting for Koivu to be an offensive force because that isn't him as a player. That isn't his game. You people who keep waiting around for the guy to score 30 goals and get 100 points are ridiculous. Koivu is complimentary offensive player on a top line. He is a good playmaker, makes good passes, and has good drive to the net. There is nothing about Koivu offensively that is elite. He is an all-around good player and a fantastic two-way center men. Koivu's game allows players like Parise and Pomminville to be more aggressive offensively. Sure there is an expectation of offensive production. He should put in 60-70 points a season, possibly topping out at 80 if he really breaks out. He has consistently found himself in that range. The guy isn't Henrik Sedin or Claude Giroux and he never will be. Clearly GM's around the league and all Koivu's teammates appreciate his game and the level at which he plays. The constant nagging at the guy and attacking his leadership ability because he doesn't score 40 goals a season or carry the team to the playoffs single handily are absurd. Parise certainly had a down year by his standards last year and managed what? one point in the playoffs. Where is all the criticism for him? He's getting paid significantly more for longer term than Koivu and he's supposed to be a goal scorer. This team has absolutely sucked for years and now we are finally competitive with a lot to be excited about and still just nothing but ridiculous complaints. It's getting really old.

Ridiculous complaints? If they were ridiculous what you saw last night would have been a rare occurrence for Mikko Koivu. Its not though, its the norm. He's a fantastic two-way center? :lol: He's a good two-way center is what you meant to say. He isn't nearly worth the money he's making. He's making 'elite' scorer type money. He's been given (undeservedly the last few years) the team's primary on-ice leadership position.

Zach Parise would be aggressive and assertive on ANY line he was placed on; Mikko's presence is irrelevant to how Parise plays. Mikko certainly does not draw much attention away from Parise as he's still that line's primary (if almost their only) real scoring threat. Even Pominville had just 1 shot. So if Mikko is opening up the ice that much do to his presence, then how do you explain that? Does Pominville not want to shoot the puck? Or is it easier to just glide around the zone and watch Parise do all of the heavy lifting, scoring, etc?

Koivu won his draws, good for him. But you're not paying that kind of cash for just that. And if this was one of the few times Koivu looked slow on the ice perhaps you'd actually have a point. Yet its what we've seen for years as Jarick mentioned and it was what I was eluding to as well.

Parise doesn't get the heat because he's the one carrying that line. Mikko collects the points for Parise's hard work, not the other way around. Its just like Pierre-Marc Bouchard when he was on a line with Brian Rolston. Bouchard wasn't making great set ups, he was on a line with a gifted scorer and he picked up the bonus points for being in HIS presence. Same goes for Koivu with Parise.

The lack of team speed is a significant issue and this organization continues to ignore it at its own peril. I agree wholeheartedly the game is faster and thus you need to be a faster team from top to bottom if you want to be successful, let alone one of the top teams in your conference / division. Way back in the day, the Wild's skating was almost never an issue. We had far less talent, but one skill our organization valued and made sure it had was good speed and great skaters. Walz, Laaksonen, Dupuis, Park, Dowd, Roest, and Gaborik all had speed to burn and that kept us in games that we had no business being in when you combined those wheels with our defensive style. We caught teams in transition and had the speed to counter attack. The top line doesn't have that anymore. Only Parise has the wheels to do that. Koivu, he plods down the ice and by the time he gets there the defense has recovered and the opportunity is lost. The 2nd line is bigger, slower forwards. Coyle and Niederreiter can move ok, but they too are slowed down by Heatley.

I am still not convinced that Koivu is a 1st line NHL center. Only his salary would indicate that he is. That's not an observation from just this game, but basically his whole career. It'd be nice for the Koivu Kool-Aid club to finally acknowledge that.
 

tomgilbertfan

#WhyBother
Jun 22, 2008
16,024
268
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1 day into the season and we're already having the "Koivu is not a 1st line center" argument, must be a record. Must we rehash this every year? Calling it an unproductive argument is an understatement.
 

THEALLKNOWING*

Guest
Mikko looks slow versus Parise & Pomenville. Hmm, probably right. Have you considered that Mikko being 3-5 inches taller, and 25+ lbs heavier than the other two, may have something to do with it? And being slow, do you mean in short bursts? Probably right there again, but you really don't know at full speed now do you. And see Mikko going slow, does he have the puck on his stick? Probably, but how often do you actually see Parise carrrying he puck (I would suggest rarely for any length of time).
 

Jbcraig1883

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Mar 31, 2002
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Last night's performance was pretty good overall. They were moving their feet, breaking out of the zone much better than they have in the past, and were limiting the other team to few scoring chances. If they continue to move their feet, pressure the puck, and breakout well, they are going to do well. There will be some missed plays and some chemistry errors early on but I thought they looked as good as any other team on opening night.
 

behemolari

Registered User
Dec 1, 2011
6,029
2,547
Yeah...wow this thread. We outplayed, out possessed one of the biggest/ best teams in the league. Last year play would have been the other way, and we'd count on a breakout or rare successful pp to get us to the shoot out. So we didn't win...it's not because anyone sucked. I didn't see anything wrong with Koivu myself...yeah he was slower than his line mates but Coyle would be too. Not at all worried about the season or line combos based on this game, but wouldn't be opposed to playing with them either. Despite our passing being a bit off we still carried the play, recovering because guys were usually where everyone else on the ice thought they would be. It's a huge difference from last year. Only one game. Not like we were playing the oilers.

exactly, haven't seen that motivated & energized wild-team ever before. people really don't seem to realize LA team they were playing against yesterday is a contender of this year, really close winner last year and champion year before. Anything but being outplayed at this position is a huge thing for Wild
 

Jarick

Doing Nothing
To be fair, Parise has also been on the decline for the last several seasons:

2005-2006 81gp 0.17gpg 0.40ppg
2006-2007 82gp 0.38gpg 0.76ppg
2007-2008 81gp 0.40gpg 0.80ppg
2008-2009 82gp 0.55gpg 1.15ppg
2009-2010 81gp 0.47gpg 1.01ppg
2010-2011 13gp 0.23gpg 0.46ppg
2011-2012 82gp 0.38gpg 0.84ppg
2012-2013 48gp 0.38gpg 0.79ppg

Pominville is a little harder to read, but again appears to be worse than he was five years ago:

2005-2006 57gp 0.32gpg 0.53ppg
2006-2007 82gp 0.41gpg 0.83ppg
2007-2008 82gp 0.33gpg 0.98ppg
2008-2009 82gp 0.24gpg 0.80ppg
2009-2010 82gp 0.29gpg 0.76ppg
2010-2011 73gp 0.30gpg 0.71ppg
2011-2012 82gp 0.37gpg 0.89ppg
2012-2013 47gp 0.30gpg 0.72ppg

We all know that Heatley has been on the decline for the last five years as well:

2005-2006 82gp 0.61gpg 1.26ppg
2006-2007 82gp 0.61gpg 1.28ppg
2007-2008 71gp 0.58gpg 1.15ppg
2008-2009 82gp 0.48gpg 0.88ppg
2009-2010 82gp 0.48gpg 1.00ppg
2010-2011 80gp 0.33gpg 0.80ppg
2011-2012 82gp 0.29gpg 0.65ppg
2012-2013 36gp 0.31gpg 0.58ppg

This is why I'm very hesitant to support the Wild signing Vanek. We have three players signed for five years who are on the decline offensively. Vanek is right at his peak now. He will likely still be an elite player for a few years, but after that historically guys drop off. Wild would have $28-30m tied up in four guys who are well past their prime.

Vanek's numbers:

2005-2006 81gp 0.31gpg 0.59ppg
2006-2007 82gp 0.52gpg 1.02ppg
2007-2008 82gp 0.44gpg 0.78ppg
2008-2009 73gp 0.55gpg 0.88ppg
2009-2010 71gp 0.39gpg 0.75ppg
2010-2011 80gp 0.40gpg 0.91ppg
2011-2012 78gp 0.33gpg 0.78ppg
2012-2013 38gp 0.53gpg 1.08ppg

This is why I hope the Wild will see what guys like Coyle, Nino, Granlund, and Zucker can do instead. Why the Nino trade was brilliant. You have a kid who's going to peak over the next 5-7 years instead of being on the downside of his career traded for a 3rd/4th liner.

The Wild have like a 2-3 year window before the guys above drop off (historically) and the kids start to produce. After that, they're going to have a lot of dead weight and cap issues.
 

behemolari

Registered User
Dec 1, 2011
6,029
2,547
Last night's performance was pretty good overall. They were moving their feet, breaking out of the zone much better than they have in the past, and were limiting the other team to few scoring chances. If they continue to move their feet, pressure the puck, and breakout well, they are going to do well. There will be some missed plays and some chemistry errors early on but I thought they looked as good as any other team on opening night.

Yeah, literally compared the game to those couple other ones were running at same time, it was heck of a game from both sides - for an opener.
 

Dr Jan Itor

Registered User
Dec 10, 2009
45,311
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MinneSNOWta
I'll only offer a minor tweak at this point:

Parise - Koivu - Pominville
Neiderreiter - Coyle - Granlund
Cooke - Brodziak - Heatley/Mitchell
Fontaine - Konopka - Mitchell

You can actually sell this because Heatley and Brodziak had a little chemistry before. Mitchell can then be moved up in certain situations or late in games when ahead. Put the kids on a line; Nino & Coyle are every bit as physical as Cooke & Brodziak so Granlund still doesn't have to worry about that part of the game.
 

Minnewildsota

He who laughs last thinks slowest
Jun 7, 2010
8,724
3,013
To be fair, Parise has also been on the decline for the last several seasons:

2005-2006 81gp 0.17gpg 0.40ppg
2006-2007 82gp 0.38gpg 0.76ppg
2007-2008 81gp 0.40gpg 0.80ppg
2008-2009 82gp 0.55gpg 1.15ppg
2009-2010 81gp 0.47gpg 1.01ppg
2010-2011 13gp 0.23gpg 0.46ppg
2011-2012 82gp 0.38gpg 0.84ppg
2012-2013 48gp 0.38gpg 0.79ppg

Pominville is a little harder to read, but again appears to be worse than he was five years ago:

2005-2006 57gp 0.32gpg 0.53ppg
2006-2007 82gp 0.41gpg 0.83ppg
2007-2008 82gp 0.33gpg 0.98ppg
2008-2009 82gp 0.24gpg 0.80ppg
2009-2010 82gp 0.29gpg 0.76ppg
2010-2011 73gp 0.30gpg 0.71ppg
2011-2012 82gp 0.37gpg 0.89ppg
2012-2013 47gp 0.30gpg 0.72ppg

We all know that Heatley has been on the decline for the last five years as well:

2005-2006 82gp 0.61gpg 1.26ppg
2006-2007 82gp 0.61gpg 1.28ppg
2007-2008 71gp 0.58gpg 1.15ppg
2008-2009 82gp 0.48gpg 0.88ppg
2009-2010 82gp 0.48gpg 1.00ppg
2010-2011 80gp 0.33gpg 0.80ppg
2011-2012 82gp 0.29gpg 0.65ppg
2012-2013 36gp 0.31gpg 0.58ppg

This is why I'm very hesitant to support the Wild signing Vanek. We have three players signed for five years who are on the decline offensively. Vanek is right at his peak now. He will likely still be an elite player for a few years, but after that historically guys drop off. Wild would have $28-30m tied up in four guys who are well past their prime.

Vanek's numbers:

2005-2006 81gp 0.31gpg 0.59ppg
2006-2007 82gp 0.52gpg 1.02ppg
2007-2008 82gp 0.44gpg 0.78ppg
2008-2009 73gp 0.55gpg 0.88ppg
2009-2010 71gp 0.39gpg 0.75ppg
2010-2011 80gp 0.40gpg 0.91ppg
2011-2012 78gp 0.33gpg 0.78ppg
2012-2013 38gp 0.53gpg 1.08ppg

This is why I hope the Wild will see what guys like Coyle, Nino, Granlund, and Zucker can do instead. Why the Nino trade was brilliant. You have a kid who's going to peak over the next 5-7 years instead of being on the downside of his career traded for a 3rd/4th liner.

The Wild have like a 2-3 year window before the guys above drop off (historically) and the kids start to produce. After that, they're going to have a lot of dead weight and cap issues.

Crosby, Malkin and Letang are signed until they are ~35. That'll be a lot of dead space as well. You'll never get perfect contracts for the team.
 
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