GDT: 10/15/22 - 7:00PM EDT - Tampa Bay @ Pittsburgh

[OffBy1]

Kuch is 29

Realistically this is a transition year. Way too many holes and no cap space to solve them. Dump some of these albatross contracts and look towards reloading for next year.

As constructed this probably isn’t a playoff team. I’d consider big offers on Kuch.

I think you're going too far saying this isn't even a playoff team. This roster with Palat and McD, but minus Point, swept FL and beat NY in 6 in the playoffs last year. Gaining Point back more than offsets Palat, and McD alone doesn't make or break us as a playoff team.

I'd agree that at least on paper we've gone from a Stanley Cup favorite to a team favored only to go past first round of the playoffs. It's a long season and tons of unknowns to unfold between trades, key injuries to stanley cup favorite teams, and surprise upsets in the playoffs. Along the way we have to see if one or both of Serge or Cirelli take steps forward this year, and if Hagel, Colton, Paul, Keopke, or Fortier are able to take steps forward. There's also the Myers experiment to play out.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Trading kuch is a awful idea. This team will probably suffer from losses but it's not like they still don't have pieces that when things truly matter can get what they need to win. As long as they have their elite players healthy and the depth scoring is also there unlike last year they can go far again. It's October guys..

 

[Byrddog]

You can not maintain a team by subtraction. What we see now is a team closing in on a rebuild rather than a team ready for a deep run. Sure enough we have a core. But the core has to have depth scoring. Lose the Gourde line still make it to the final add in Palat and Mac we just do not know but we’re probably a wildcard team since the rest of the East for the most part improved . It’s a fine line in Cap hockey you can not have 4 players absorbing half the team cap without creating holes. You get the holes in the wrong places your compete level falls. This 3rd pair is a real problem. Hagel is not what we need him to be. Moving Stamkos down makes little difference unlike last year. There is still no answer for the 3rd line. For two years now the praise has been for JBB who has done nothing but resign players some he needed to trade in order to balance the team. For all the hell TJ got he was just as productive as Cirelli and more flexible moving up and down the roster center to wing those are the players missing. JBB got lucky budget wise getting reclamation like Shattenkirk and for that matter Coleman and Goodrow.

So in short term players can only do so much. The GM can make or break a team with there budget. What we are seeing is cap hell imposed by relying on the false assumptions that the core guys will have career years and there will 3 of the filler guys step up to the next level.

We can argue about who needs to be moved but one thing for sure moving a 5 mil a year player is not going to create the room to patch this team before the window does in fact slam shut. What we are seeing is the Leafs problem a team that can not make it past round one. That is not fun to see. The question I have is will JBB endure and which path will be taken? The Chicago path where the window closes and they spend 10 years patching before burning it down to a rebuild or a Rangers type taking a short road getting back to contention.

 

[Rschmitz]

You can't waste the primes of Vasy and Hedman by doing a rebuild, no matter how short it may be.

 

[LightningStrikes]

You can not maintain a team by subtraction. What we see now is a team closing in on a rebuild rather than a team ready for a deep run. Sure enough we have a core. But the core has to have depth scoring. Lose the Gourde line still make it to the final add in Palat and Mac we just do not know but we’re probably a wildcard team since the rest of the East for the most part improved . It’s a fine line in Cap hockey you can not have 4 players absorbing half the team cap without creating holes. You get the holes in the wrong places your compete level falls. This 3rd pair is a real problem. Hagel is not what we need him to be. Moving Stamkos down makes little difference unlike last year. There is still no answer for the 3rd line. For two years now the praise has been for JBB who has done nothing but resign players some he needed to trade in order to balance the team. For all the hell TJ got he was just as productive as Cirelli and more flexible moving up and down the roster center to wing those are the players missing. JBB got lucky budget wise getting reclamation like Shattenkirk and for that matter Coleman and Goodrow.

So in short term players can only do so much. The GM can make or break a team with there budget. What we are seeing is cap hell imposed by relying on the false assumptions that the core guys will have career years and there will 3 of the filler guys step up to the next level.

We can argue about who needs to be moved but one thing for sure moving a 5 mil a year player is not going to create the room to patch this team before the window does in fact slam shut. What we are seeing is the Leafs problem a team that can not make it past round one. That is not fun to see. The question I have is will JBB endure and which path will be taken? The Chicago path where the window closes and they spend 10 years patching before burning it down to a rebuild or a Rangers type taking a short road getting back to contention.

So you’re suggesting what exactly? What would you have done differently? Keep TJ over Cirelli?

We won two cups and went to another final, of course the team is trending downhill - that’s the salary cap world. You keep the core as long as possible and try to inject B players with potential as your established depth guys get paid on the open market while you try and get rid of the old and/or banged up and pay market value for the few you want and can keep.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

You can not maintain a team by subtraction. What we see now is a team closing in on a rebuild rather than a team ready for a deep run. Sure enough we have a core. But the core has to have depth scoring. Lose the Gourde line still make it to the final add in Palat and Mac we just do not know but we’re probably a wildcard team since the rest of the East for the most part improved . It’s a fine line in Cap hockey you can not have 4 players absorbing half the team cap without creating holes. You get the holes in the wrong places your compete level falls. This 3rd pair is a real problem. Hagel is not what we need him to be. Moving Stamkos down makes little difference unlike last year. There is still no answer for the 3rd line. For two years now the praise has been for JBB who has done nothing but resign players some he needed to trade in order to balance the team. For all the hell TJ got he was just as productive as Cirelli and more flexible moving up and down the roster center to wing those are the players missing. JBB got lucky budget wise getting reclamation like Shattenkirk and for that matter Coleman and Goodrow.

So in short term players can only do so much. The GM can make or break a team with there budget. What we are seeing is cap hell imposed by relying on the false assumptions that the core guys will have career years and there will 3 of the filler guys step up to the next level.

We can argue about who needs to be moved but one thing for sure moving a 5 mil a year player is not going to create the room to patch this team before the window does in fact slam shut. What we are seeing is the Leafs problem a team that can not make it past round one. That is not fun to see. The question I have is will JBB endure and which path will be taken? The Chicago path where the window closes and they spend 10 years patching before burning it down to a rebuild or a Rangers type taking a short road getting back to contention.

Its like you completely forgot that a stagnant cap happened.

 

[Sky04]

You can't waste the primes of Vasy and Hedman by doing a rebuild, no matter how short it may be.

Yeah we're competing for the next 3-4 years regardless of the future. If you sell off one piece you might as well sell them all.

 

[JTBF81]

You can not maintain a team by subtraction. What we see now is a team closing in on a rebuild rather than a team ready for a deep run. Sure enough we have a core. But the core has to have depth scoring. Lose the Gourde line still make it to the final add in Palat and Mac we just do not know but we’re probably a wildcard team since the rest of the East for the most part improved . It’s a fine line in Cap hockey you can not have 4 players absorbing half the team cap without creating holes. You get the holes in the wrong places your compete level falls. This 3rd pair is a real problem. Hagel is not what we need him to be. Moving Stamkos down makes little difference unlike last year. There is still no answer for the 3rd line. For two years now the praise has been for JBB who has done nothing but resign players some he needed to trade in order to balance the team. For all the hell TJ got he was just as productive as Cirelli and more flexible moving up and down the roster center to wing those are the players missing. JBB got lucky budget wise getting reclamation like Shattenkirk and for that matter Coleman and Goodrow.

So in short term players can only do so much. The GM can make or break a team with there budget. What we are seeing is cap hell imposed by relying on the false assumptions that the core guys will have career years and there will 3 of the filler guys step up to the next level.

We can argue about who needs to be moved but one thing for sure moving a 5 mil a year player is not going to create the room to patch this team before the window does in fact slam shut. What we are seeing is the Leafs problem a team that can not make it past round one. That is not fun to see. The question I have is will JBB endure and which path will be taken? The Chicago path where the window closes and they spend 10 years patching before burning it down to a rebuild or a Rangers type taking a short road getting back to contention.

Lol, closer to a rebuild and Johnson being more flexible in the lineup than Cirelli is all I needed to read. Don't let that Cirelli bias die. How's Johnson been lately...getting rid of McD was probably a mistake, and so was likely keeping Killorn, but the cap not rising much was going to make it impossible to keep everyone.

They could've kept Gourde I suppose and lost McD, only realistic other option, buy then the defense would've been much worse last year. No chance either of Coleman or Goodrow was being kept, and TJ was dead weight at that point and so JBB did the best he could there. They will need to continue to re-tool for another year cap wise, until it starts to go up by more than a million, but neither a full tear down nor quick re-build like Chicago or NYR is needed. The core is still more than good enough to win another Cup if the complimentary pieces work out, which remains to be seen.

 

[Sky04]

Lol, closer to a rebuild and Johnson being more flexible in the lineup than Cirelli is all I needed to read. Don't let that Cirelli bias die. How's Johnson been lately...getting rid of McD was probably a mistake, and so was likely keeping Killorn, but the cap not rising much was going to make it impossible to keep everyone.

They could've kept Gourde I suppose and lost McD, only realistic other option, buy then the defense would've been much worse last year. No chance either of Coleman or Goodrow was being kept, and TJ was dead weight at that point and so JBB did the best he could there. They will need to continue to re-tool for another year cap wise, until it starts to go up by more than a million, but neither a full tear down nor quick re-build like Chicago or NYR is needed. The core is still more than good enough to win another Cup if the complimentary pieces work out, which remains to be seen.

This is also a dumb argument, Killorn's contract expires at the end of this year regardless of how "bad" he is, it doesn't hurt us one bit. Your chances of finding another player outvaluing him at his price is slim to none.

 

[JTBF81]

This is also a dumb argument, Killorn's contract expires at the end of this year regardless of how "bad" he is, it doesn't hurt us one bit. Your chances of finding another playing outvaluing him at his price is slim to none.

Or, you know, since they were willing to take whatever for McD, they could've done the same with Killorn and actually tried to keep Palat. No one knows what he may have been willing to take to stay in Tampa, only that the only offer he was given was quite bad. I get the team not wanting to commit long term to him, but if they wanted to keep one of Pally/Killorn after this year, imo it should've been Palat. The room could've been made easily for this year, and with the cap being speculated to rise considerably after next year, there may have been space long term. Can only hope they give Killorn the same generous offer to stay after this season, because if they tie up valuable cap space to keep him for several more years, that would be a large mistake.

 

[Sky04]

Or, you know, since they were willing to take whatever for McD, they could've done the same with Killorn and actually tried to keep Palat. No one knows what he may have been willing to take to stay in Tampa, only that the only offer he was given was quite bad. I get the team not wanting to commit long term to him, but if they wanted to keep one of Pally/Killorn after this year, imo it should've been Palat. The room could've been made easily for this year, and with the cap being speculated to rise considerably after next year, there may have been space long term. Can only hope they give Killorn the same generous offer to stay after this season, because if they tie up valuable cap space to keep him for several more years, that would be a large mistake.

No, moving on from Palat was the right choice and Palat is ass in the regular season so how exactly is bitching about him right now helping?

 

[JTBF81]

No, moving on from Palat was the right choice and Palat is ass in the regular season so how exactly is bitching about him right now helping?

I'd rather have the guy who performed when it mattered last year than the guy who was, from all accounts, healthy and did very little when the team really needed him. I could care less if moving Palat made sense cap wise, as I'm aware of the situation that the team has decided to keep neither player mid to long term. It doesn't change my opinion that keeping Killorn was a bad move. It also doesn't change the fact that Killorn was garbage in the games that decided if Tampa 3peated. The team is more than good enough to make the playoffs more than likely, regardless of whether it's Killorn or Palat as a secondary winger, but who contributes in the playoffs is what I'm concerned with. Palat has been the better playoff performer every year but one in the last 5, so losing a player that nearly always brings it in clutch time is not insignificant or the for certain correct choice.

 

[Rschmitz]

I like Palat better than Killorn but you have to assume that the need for a single year on a deal tied JBB's hands.

In either case we'd still have depth issues.

 

[Sky04]

Raddysh has 1 less point than Hagel in half the amount of games. Hagel's production in TB now at 13 points in 48 games, so right around Bellemare's production rate and less than Maroon.

 

[Stammertime91]

Raddysh has 1 less point than Hagel in half the amount of games. Hagel's production in TB now at 13 points in 48 games, so right around Bellemare's production rate and less than Maroon.

Horrible trade so far. Gosh.

 

[Rschmitz]

Deal didn’t even make sense at the time. Should have dealt for a rental

 

[RussianGuyovich]

Deal didn’t even make sense at the time. Should have dealt for a rental

The ONLY benefit so far is hagels contract. Gotta have someone put on a sweater. We’ve got more raddyshes and katchouks in Syracuse. They took a gamble; and so far have lost. But I don’t think there’s an issue in the decision making process.

 

[Sky04]

I'd rather have the guy who performed when it mattered last year than the guy who was, from all accounts, healthy and did very little when the team really needed him. I could care less if moving Palat made sense cap wise, as I'm aware of the situation that the team has decided to keep neither player mid to long term. It doesn't change my opinion that keeping Killorn was a bad move. It also doesn't change the fact that Killorn was garbage in the games that decided if Tampa 3peated. The team is more than good enough to make the playoffs more than likely, regardless of whether it's Killorn or Palat as a secondary winger, but who contributes in the playoffs is what I'm concerned with. Palat has been the better playoff performer every year but one in the last 5, so losing a player that nearly always brings it in clutch time is not insignificant or the for certain correct choice.

Are we in the playoffs right now? No? Then don't really see what a game in October has anything to do with your argument.

Complaining about losing Palat for his playoff ability in a loss in October makes... little sense?

 

[Rschmitz]

The ONLY benefit so far is hagels contract. Gotta have someone put on a sweater. We’ve got more raddyshes and katchouks in Syracuse. They took a gamble; and so far have lost. But I don’t think there’s an issue in the decision making process.

You don't feel like dealing away two 1sts for a middle 6 winger was a major tactical blunder? It shouldn't be incredibly shocking that when taken away from Patrick Kane, Hagel turned back into a 1.5 million dollar middling complimentary forward.

Even if he had not, it was a significant overpay for a team that now has very little in the bank to make any course corrections. It's the kind of deal you make if you are one big piece away from completing the puzzle, not a move to add depth while losing major pieces in the offseason. In that context, wouldn't a rental piece be better?

 

[RussianGuyovich]

You don't feel like dealing away two 1sts for a middle 6 winger was a major tactical blunder? It shouldn't be incredibly shocking that when taken away from Patrick Kane, Hagel turned back into a 1.5 million dollar middling complimentary forward.

Even if he had not, it was a significant overpay for a team that now has very little in the bank to make any course corrections. It's the kind of deal you make if you are one big piece away from completing the puzzle, not a move to add depth while losing major pieces in the offseason. In that context, wouldn't a rental piece be better?

i mean we got to the finals? How much closer do you have to be to be “one piece away”?

 

[Rschmitz]

i mean we got to the finals? How much closer do you have to be to be “one piece away”?

So you think that 6 point Brandon Hagel was the piece that we needed to get us back to the finals, I simply can't argue with this kind of logic.

 

[RussianGuyovich]

So you think that 6 point Brandon Hagel was the piece that we needed to get us back to the finals, I simply can't argue with this kind of logic.

Once again You don’t understand dialectics.

 

[Rschmitz]

Once again You don’t understand dialectics.

Sorry. I was repeating for clarification, you are welcome to elaborate. I just ask that you be intellectually honest

 

[RussianGuyovich]

Sorry. I was repeating for clarification, you are welcome to elaborate. I just ask that you be intellectually honest

What I meant was, I don’t have a problem with them taking a chance. I already admitted that Hagel was a big L so far. Trading both AHLers wasn’t huge, and two firsts are mostly overvalued on HF (vlad was one of our firsts at one time, no one was excited to have him back) and most likely would not have contributed during our window. I just understand the decision process, and don’t mind that we took the gamble. It only would’ve been worth it, if we won the cup. But we didn’t, cest la vie.

 

[JTBF81]

Are we in the playoffs right now? No? Then don't really see what a game in October has anything to do with your argument.

Complaining about losing Palat for his playoff ability in a loss in October makes... little sense?

I could care less about his performance in October, as I was responding to a post about the general state of the team, it's moves, and it's chances this season and beyond.