“There wasn’t much but I wanted a penalty against Nashville” UPD Tim Peel early retirement

[theVladiator]

Message to other refs: keep doing what you are doing, but if you ever admit it we will have to fire you.

 

[JianYang]

True but IMO that was the best season the league has been in a long time. By calling everything it let the elite players excell and stand out. The NHL is the only league that doesn't want their star players to stand out. All other leagues call penalties to protect their star players.

The NHL would never go for that cause you would see many lop sided scores most nights. No one wants to see teams like Colorado and Vegas dominate teams every night like the have the past week.

IMO a lot of the blame for game management and parity is cause of us fans. Too many have complained when their team sucks and are out of the playoffs by December.

I think the league has struck a good balance these days in terms of stick infractions, and hooks. It used to be a good defensive play to hack and whack at gloves and the stick. This little difference makes an impact for the skill guys, both in terms of showcasing their skill, and not getting injured from constant whacks.

But if they want to take the next towards protecting stars, or any other player for that matter, I think they have to revisit their headshot policy. I still think there are certain instances where there isn't enough onus placed on the hitter, and too much blame on the victim, but they are generally trending in the right direction compared to 10 years ago.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Youre confusing the "court of public opinion" with a "court of law" ... as a fan forum we follow the "public opinion" rules on evidence.

In civil law, guilt only requires a preponderance of evidence, a more likely than not standard, 51% vs 49% if you will.

In public opinion law, guilt requires the public to hold a majority opinion.

Id submit that the majority of the public is of the opinion that this is a League Office mandate.

This is the 2nd item in this thread I'd like to submit to HF Bad Legal Takes.

 

[IceNeophyte]

You would also see penalties go up heavily for trailing teams which is effectively a death sentence.

Why should trailing teams be allowed to cheat the rules to catch up?

 

[The Macho King]

If I'm Bally's, MGM, or whatever, and the NHL is asking me for money - I have a pretty huge problem with this. I think hockey fans are numb to this because it's just the way it's been for at least a couple of decades. I know there's the whole "you can call holding/pass interference every down" in Football argument, but they don't "make up" holding calls. You see plenty of games (Super Bowl is a good example" with wide disparities in both numbers of penalties and yards, and - for the most part at least - the reaction isn't "let them play", it's "Team A is playing undisciplined."

Same thing in basketball. Someone commits a lot of fouls is playing "undisciplined", but the game isn't fixed.

The issue isn't some objective criteria of what is a hook or what is interference. The issue is - within a game - what is a hook and what is interference is determined by external factors and not a ref calling the game in a consistent way.

This is *really* bad for the sport. But this stupid league frames everything from how it does the standings to how it officiates within a game as "look at how close everyone is!" Call the game right - call the penalties you see no matter what the score is and what period it is and what part of the season it is.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

How is this guy not fired?

Colin Campbell exposed: Says Marc Savard is “biggest faker going”; berates officials for picking on his son

 

[cbcwpg]

Some comments from Kerry Fraser a few years back...

- “That’s bad game management,” Fraser said. “My mindset was, ‘OK, I’m not going to look for one on the other team just because one team has taken four or five in a row, but I sure as heck can’t afford to miss one.’ Your radar goes up, especially when the other team is in a checking position, and as soon as one is there, you make sure you get it.” To Fraser, this isn’t about makeup calls. It’s a sign of good game management.

****

Even the refs know they are "managing" the games. And where do you think they got the idea to manage games from? Just their own thought on the matter or an unofficial directive from the league?

 

[The Macho King]

How is this guy not fired?

Colin Campbell exposed: Says Marc Savard is “biggest faker going”; berates officials for picking on his son

I would love for someone who put a prop bet on the amount of PPs in that game last night from one of the NHL/team's sponsors to sue the league for fixing the game. Because that's all game management is - it's point shaving and game fixing.

 

[ClydeLee]

I have said for over a decade now, that there needs to be a referee oversight committee that looks at questionable calls and takes action, not unlike what exists with the "player safety department". Far as I can tell, up until now, there has never been any recourse or action taken after a referee botches a call or game. And there needs to be. Big time. In the same way Tom Wilson needs some lengthy suspensions to curb his behavior, the NHL needs to hand out similar sentences to referees (both Officials and Linesmen but to a higher degree the Officials) to curb exactly what we saw there.

The only thing consistent is the inconsistency. I don't really care how a ref chooses to make the calls. I understand that with 30 officials in the league, there will be 30 opinions. That's fine. But from the first second to the last second, the same criteria should be used. Time on the clock is irrelevant.

They do have referee committees like that. Every major sport does. That's how they choose who gets playoff games, who gets to keep going deeper in the playoffs. And a rare occurrence in some situations it happens where guys at the bottom rung do get fired or demoted.

What I think you would want is for that to be public. It's never public and officiating unions have always fought it to be that way. But any major time officiating union battles happen it seems the fans and media don't have the long term insight and worry about replacements and it ends up the officials maintaining mostly what they want.

There's plenty of major changes I would want too but they're controlled by the refs unions. Like on ice reviews of goalie inference or offside should simply occur at Toronto, but when they put them in the union demanded it be them to keep their control over the game as they see it. People often say the league does or allows x,y,z in these cases when a lot of it is the officiating unions control.

 

[PaulD]

League gave refs way too much discretion back when they wanted to get scoring up. Call any thing and everything.
Anytime the home team is down by three goals a 5 on 3 is coming for them. Set your watch by it.
So when you give refs that kind of mandate........some if not all will apply it else where as they see fit.
Has money been won by a ref (through a buddy placing a bet) with the ref helping for a desired result. Would be naive to think not.
If you keeps idiots like this guy working after that video goes viral..........its certain to happen.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

If I'm Bally's, MGM, or whatever, and the NHL is asking me for money - I have a pretty huge problem with this. I think hockey fans are numb to this because it's just the way it's been for at least a couple of decades. I know there's the whole "you can call holding/pass interference every down" in Football argument, but they don't "make up" holding calls. You see plenty of games (Super Bowl is a good example" with wide disparities in both numbers of penalties and yards, and - for the most part at least - the reaction isn't "let them play", it's "Team A is playing undisciplined."

Same thing in basketball. Someone commits a lot of fouls is playing "undisciplined", but the game isn't fixed.

The issue isn't some objective criteria of what is a hook or what is interference. The issue is - within a game - what is a hook and what is interference is determined by external factors and not a ref calling the game in a consistent way.

This is *really* bad for the sport. But this stupid league frames everything from how it does the standings to how it officiates within a game as "look at how close everyone is!" Call the game right - call the penalties you see no matter what the score is and what period it is and what part of the season it is.

The NBA is a bad example to hold as some high standard because their officiating is some of the worst in the world. Their games are managed much like the NHL, except the NBA does it for an entertainment aspect rather then keep every team close. They don't give a crap is Charlotte or Memphis is good. Replacing one form of bad reffing with another style is not the best idea.

Both leagues have garbage systems for very different reasons.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Sure, but my point was that its not a refs issue if they are doing what they are told. Its an NHL issue, and conversely as much as people signal they want the game called 100% clean I suspect they change their tune very quickly when there's 15 penalties a game and their team is only getting 3 or 4 of the 15. You would also see penalties go up heavily for trailing teams which is effectively a death sentence.

Then it becomes a conversation about how the NHL is screwing them over because suddenly the PP opportunity shows heavy disparity.

Like it or not, the game would be pretty unwatchable with entire periods worth of powerplays, but scoring would go up so thats cool i guess.

This is not as easy a situation for the NHL to fix as it sounds.

I don’t think many people would have an issue with the officiating if they were getting fewer power plays as a result of being a worse team. . . I would think people would have an issue with the team itself.

 

[The Macho King]

Some comments from Kerry Fraser a few years back...

- “That’s bad game management,” Fraser said. “My mindset was, ‘OK, I’m not going to look for one on the other team just because one team has taken four or five in a row, but I sure as heck can’t afford to miss one.’ Your radar goes up, especially when the other team is in a checking position, and as soon as one is there, you make sure you get it.” To Fraser, this isn’t about makeup calls. It’s a sign of good game management.

****

Even the refs know they are "managing" the games. And where do you think they got the idea to manage games from? Just their own thought on the matter or an unofficial directive from the league?

I saw that earlier. Reading it in as forgiving a manner as I can toward Fraser, my thought is that if you call a lot against one team, you may - as a matter of human condition - find yourself looking more closely at the other team. But Fraser is big on this game management nonsense too so f*** him and his point shaving.

 

[The Macho King]

The NBA is a bad example to hold as some high standard because their officiating is some of the worst in the world. Their games are managed much like the NHL, except the NBA does it for an entertainment aspect rather then keep every team close. They don't give a crap is Charlotte or Memphis is good. Replacing one form of bad reffing with another style is not the best idea.

Both leagues have garbage systems for very different reasons.

I'm sure NBA and soccer all have their issues with refs. But I would guess they at least call what they see (and because so much of NBA betting is against the spread instead of straight money line like the NHL, it's probably by that sheer fact more above board).

 

[IceNeophyte]

Some comments from Kerry Fraser a few years back...

- “That’s bad game management,” Fraser said. “My mindset was, ‘OK, I’m not going to look for one on the other team just because one team has taken four or five in a row, but I sure as heck can’t afford to miss one.’ Your radar goes up, especially when the other team is in a checking position, and as soon as one is there, you make sure you get it.” To Fraser, this isn’t about makeup calls. It’s a sign of good game management.

****

Even the refs know they are "managing" the games. And where do you think they got the idea to manage games from? Just their own thought on the matter or an unofficial directive from the league?

He's actually explaining how selective bias works. Refs are human, and I can see this happening. You want to be fair, you've called 4 in a row against one side, you don't want to be unfair and miss a call when the other side commits it. The rationale is pro justice, but it make a ref hyperfocused on the one side, even though they may be playing cleaner.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

He's actually explaining how selective bias works. Refs are human, and I can see this happening. You want to be fair, you've called 4 in a row against one side, you don't want to be unfair and miss a call when the other side commits it. The rationale is pro justice, but it make a ref hyperfocused on the one side, even though they may be playing cleaner.

And that’s where the league management needs to step in and give a clear message that it is ok to call more penalties on one side than the other and that the focus shouldn’t be on evening up calls, which is intrinsically unfair, but on whether or not a play is illegal as defined in the rules.

 

[kingsfan28]

Every game tonight will have twice the "normal" amount of penalties. It will be like preseason officiating.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Every game tonight will have twice the "normal" amount of penalties. It will be like preseason officiating.

And then, in a week or two, they will go back to their standard. FFS.

 

[AvroArrow]

Why can't the refs stop trying to manage games and just do their damn job. Call a penalty when you see it. I don't give a shit if my team takes 25 in a row, IF ! If it is the correct call. Make the right call. Some games will have an even amount some will have one team getting more PP than the other. Using a bell curve kind of idea to get an average is stupid. Call it how it is.

We see this crap all the time, a team will take back to back penalties, and then blatantly trip or board someone but the refs won't call it because the opposing team just had a PP, makes me wanna pull out my hair. Just do your job, which is to referee, not control the game.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

I'm sure NBA and soccer all have their issues with refs. But I would guess they at least call what they see (and because so much of NBA betting is against the spread instead of straight money line like the NHL, it's probably by that sheer fact more above board).

I don't like the fact that as soon as you make more penalty calls, or in the of the NBA, fouls. What happens? players start flopping. Then their unions protect them and get mad at the NBA and NHL when they start fining players for diving. Both the NBA and NHL used to post flops and dives and the fine amount on their various media sources or their own apps. What happened? Players agents got mad because they were embarrassed and both leagues stopped posting clips of dives and the fines are basically non existent now.

Players always find a way to game the system and you can't punish them over than a 2 minute call or a technical foul. But when was the last time a player got T'd up on an NBA court for embellishment?

 

[The Macho King]

Every game tonight will have twice the "normal" amount of penalties. It will be like preseason officiating.

I will guarantee two things come from this.

One - very little email traffic but a whole lot of conference calls. Someone probably stole Colin Campbell's laptop to keep him from saying something stupid.

Two - There will be some short-term changes, but by the time the playoffs roll around we'll be right back to square one.

I do wonder if the refs union is a bit f***ed w/r/t more oversight now.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Why can't the refs stop trying to manage games and just do their damn job. Call a penalty when you see it. I don't give a shit if my team takes 25 in a row, IF ! If it is the correct call. Make the right call. Some games will have an even amount some will have one team getting more PP than the other. Using a bell curve kind of idea to get an average is stupid. Call it how it is.

We see this crap all the time, a team will take back to back penalties, and then blatantly trip or board someone but the refs won't call it because the opposing team just had a PP, makes me wanna pull out my hair. Just do your job, which is to referee, not control the game.

Yes, for all the bs that is spouted about referees impacting the game for calling three penalties in a row, they are actually impacting the game by avoiding calls on obvious penalties. If a team puts itself into an extended 5 on 3, that is on that team, not the refs who have then done their jobs. I don’t see how anyone could argue against that if they want a truly fair, competitive game to exist.

 

[Chimpradamus]

How is this guy not fired?

Colin Campbell exposed: Says Marc Savard is “biggest faker going”; berates officials for picking on his son

Because the NHL has a very long tradition of being deeply corrupt from the very beginning. Alot of murky people calling the shots from day one - and the culture that was bred. It started with guys like Maurice "The Rocket" Richard being abused with no reaction from the higher ups because he was a "Frenchie". Then it was guys like Börje Salming, because he was "a chicken Swede". And then this appalling culture among the suits has just festered. They're a bit more refined and not as openly moronic in their statements as in the past and they know they cannot let huge things just go dark. Like this.

In the past, this would've been completely ignored by the NHL, since this is their plan from the very beginning. The new exposure with public media that forces them to actually try to look accountable from time to time is bothering them for sure. They had to bury Peel, considered an awful ref but a great circus manager in the eyes of the upper brass. I just think Peel relaxed a bit too much awaiting his retirement. He enjoyed his job as a game manager a bit too much and let it slip out of his mouth.

That the official message from the entertainment industry of the NHL is to just bury Peel until his retirement is classic NHL. Blame the fall guy, bury the evidence, while continuing to systematically do this crap and pretend us fans don't know this. There are very good reasons why I LOVE hockey and HATE the NHL and the tragedy that the biggest league in hockey had to fall in the grip of these shams.

 

[The Macho King]

I don't like the fact that as soon as you make more penalty calls, or in the of the NBA, fouls. What happens? players start flopping. Then their unions protect them and get mad at the NBA and NHL when they start fining players for diving. Both the NBA and NHL used to post flops and dives and the fine amount on their various media sources or their own apps. What happened? Players agents got mad because they were embarrassed and both leagues stopped posting clips of dives and the fines are basically non existent now.

Players always find a way to game the system and you can't punish them over than a 2 minute call or a technical foul. But when was the last time a player got T'd up on an NBA court for embellishment?

People flop now anyway. I had to watch Joe Pavelski pull his best Greg Louganis all night.

That's going to happen no matter what. I care more about the people who are ensuring a contest is conducted under the rules are actually enforcing the rules than how the players will adjust.

If a ref doesn't call a trip and his justification is "I thought it was a dive"? That's 100% defensible. If a ref doesn't call a trip and his justification is "Eh, they got the last two PPs and are up 3-1," that's a problem.

 

[Chrisinroch]

I wonder if it was an intended makeup call because he thought he had blown the Ernie call??