Player Discussion Zemgus Girgensons

[sabrebuild]

I wouldn't offer him a realistic 6-7 year deal. Those are not realistic deals (unless he has the same agent as Calle Jarnkrok.

There's always a sucker....

I don't think 6 x 3 is crazy for him. Lots of security, he gets another big contract, and he will have fluffed his stats on a top team.

If he holds on for a couple years and then takes a bigger deal, what is he realistically looking at? 4 a year? Maybe 5?

If you add the bump he gets over the short deal, by taking 3 a year over 6, he basically neutralizes the potential salary loss. And he protects himself from injury or a decline in his play.

 

[Jame]

Its not about giving him credit. Its pointing out that comparing their respective developments to this point is comparing apples to oranges.

Im not comparing their developments. that's what you would prefer the conversation to be, and since that's where everyone wants to have the debate, I've offered a new angle.

I would much prefer discussing their actual skills/talents as we perceive them.

Why would it be brought up? (Girgs as damaged goods that is)

Because he was rushed to the league. If rushing a player to the league is something that involves a reallevel of risk to said players development, than the obvious conversation that should follow 3 years later is, "what impact did rushing this player have on his development".

I find it to be very odd that the guy developing in the toughest league gets the least amount of rope. But some of the guys he's compared to get all the time they need to develop their games in lesser leagues. (Vesey right now or your creation from last summer that is a running thing with you, Larsson vs Girgs.)

I find it odd that many choose to ignore their own warnings about proper development if it's a player they like....

Everyone gets time to develop. Girgs still has time to develop. That doesn't mean we should ignore the development that's taken place, and the circumstances within.

Larsson for example took until his 6th post draft season (last year) to become a NHL regular. Not a criticism since its perfectly normal.

yes, perfectly normal... glad you mentioned it.

Girgs will be in the same development time frame (6th season post draft/draft eligible year) in the 17-18 season. Yet he is "damaged goods" because he isn't a finished product yet?

I think it's worth discussing... yes. For someone who has preached "proper development", you seem irrationally opposed to the concept of "improper development" potentially having a negative impact.

I would think common sense would tell us that it will probably take longer and it will be harder to develop in the NHL. As opposed to the AHL or NCAA.

that's right.

I would think in the next couple years we will know what we have with him.

I think so too

 

[Heraldic]

When Vesey played on a pro level (WC), he didn't show being able to translate his offense there. For example compared to Gaudreau, there was a huge, huge difference. Player like Rodrigues had major difficulties to translate his offense even to AHL level. Hobey Baker finalist Matt Garbowsky seems to be no more than just an ECHLer scorer.

The skillset we "see" someone having on NCAA, might be something totally different on NHL level. And the skillset we "see" someone having on NHL level, might be something else on a lower level like NCAA.

***

And am I actually reading that Girgs' has "somewhat" flexibility? I mean, he needs to be a goalie to have actual flexibility? He has shown to be able to play in every position, and in a different role. Only role where we haven't seen him having success is driving offense alone on his line. Pretty much on every other role (shutdown/supportive offense) he has shown to do fine.

Vesey is pure LW and haven't been playing in any role yet in NHL.

 

[Jame]

When Vesey played on a pro level (WC), he didn't show being able to translate his offense there. For example compared to Gaudreau, there was a huge, huge difference. Player like Rodrigues had major difficulties to translate his offense even to AHL level. Hobey Baker finalist Matt Garbowsky seems to be no more than just an ECHLer scorer.

The skillset we "see" someone having on NCAA, might be something totally different on NHL level. And the skillset we "see" someone having on NHL level, might be something else on a lower level like NCAA.

I'm willing to hear what anybody else has "seen". But all I see in this debate is those arguing what their internet research has turned up.

And am I actually reading that Girgs' has "somewhat" flexibility? I mean, he needs to be a goalie to have actual flexibility? He has shown to be able to play in every position, and in a different role. Only role where we haven't seen him having success is driving offense alone on his line. Pretty much on every other role (shutdown/supportive offense) he has shown to do fine.

You can quote me anytime you like. Doubting your eyesight isn't necessary.

 

[OkimLom]

I think you're absolutely insane if you think these things. I'm not even convinced Vesey is a better prospect than someone like Nic Baptiste. And no one talks about Nic Baptiste.

Is this for real? They always talk about these young players and how they've been "playing with men" -- our pal Vesey has been playing with boys. The dude is 23.

Grigs has show he can play and be very good in the NHL -- the gap between the NHL and NCAA is wider than the grand canyon. Girgensons got lost in the shuffle under Bylsma -- I personally feel it was because he was Nolan's boy -- but he was coming on at end of the season.

And Vesey more grit that Girgensons? That just makes me angry.

Right now, you tell the Rags you can have Girgenson's for Vesey, only reason the meant not do it is Vesey is $925,000 for next two years. I think they do it anyway.

Vesey could be a good player but I've got nothing to say Justin Bailey isn't better.

Yeah, I think you're more than a little offbase here.

Vesey is probably a better goal scorer at this point.

But Girgs absolutely has the more complete game and has much more grit than Vesey does

I'm absolutely baffled by this post.


Girgs is a NHL player. Vesey is not yet.

Since Vesey hasn't played a single game in the NHL you can't definitively say he has a better two way game than Girgs because it was good in college. Nor can you say he has more grit or a more consistent defensive game than Girgs because of his college play either. Those statements need to be based on comparing like to like. College hockey compared to NHL hockey is not remotely comparing like to like. Until Vesey actually plays in the NHL and demonstrates these things you can't assert them to be the case. After next season we will have something to chew on.

If you had said Vesey had the potential for these things that would be a different story. But you specifically stated he is already as good or better than Girgs at these things based on his college play. Which was a head scratcher.

I view Vesey's physical abilities on the ice, his ability to hit a hole, how quick he can do it, his physical skills, his shot, his skating/balance, and other attributes of a player and I view it against Girgs physical skill sets(apples to apples).

I see a gap in their physical skills and abilities. Girgs is very slow to react to plays on the ice consistently, Vesey has a better understanding where to be and has a much more "professional flow" to his game where he has a much more clear role/job on the ice. Its tough to describe but it's easy to see Vesey knows where to be on the ice to make plays.

I see a guy who is still weak on his skates who doesn't seem to have a solid base to support himself when in battles along the boards and shielding guys away from the puck in Girgs and you see him lose battles all over the ice consistently and I see a guy like Vesey who has this base down and though it's against weaker competition, it will translate well the NHL game.

Vesey has by far the best shot of the two. He also is the better passer. His overall offensive game is much better.

I'm not buying the idea that BECAUSE Girgs has played against NHL competition that means he's better than Vesey. Girgs is a victim of horrible asset management in terms of his development, all because Nolan wanted that type of game that Girgs brought, all work no system learning. There's aspects of Girgs' game that needs refining and he should be just on the fringe of being an NHL ready player this year, not entering his 5th professional season. I believe Girgs development as a player has been stunted and I blame past Buffalo Management for this. As I said Girgs may have more room to improve, but right now I'd rather have Vesey's game than Girgs'.

 

[sba]

I see a gap in their physical skills and abilities. Girgs is very slow to react to plays on the ice consistently, Vesey has a better understanding where to be and has a much more "professional flow" to his game where he has a much more clear role/job on the ice. Its tough to describe but it's easy to see Vesey knows where to be on the ice to make plays.

the offensive acumen that Girgensons missed while being rushed to the NHL and playing under a looser system

 

[OkimLom]

the offensive acumen that Girgensons missed while being rushed to the NHL and playing under a looser system

Yes, and you have to factor that in when discussing players. Vesey has it, Girgensons doesn't. That's a big big factor in what makes a NHL player effective in today's game. That and the ability to skate(not necessarily their speed), something I think Vesey has over Girgs; though Girgs does have the speed on Vesey.

 

[sabrebuild]

I view Vesey's physical abilities on the ice, his ability to hit a hole, how quick he can do it, his physical skills, his shot, his skating/balance, and other attributes of a player and I view it against Girgs physical skill sets(apples to apples).

I see a gap in their physical skills and abilities. Girgs is very slow to react to plays on the ice consistently, Vesey has a better understanding where to be and has a much more "professional flow" to his game where he has a much more clear role/job on the ice. Its tough to describe but it's easy to see Vesey knows where to be on the ice to make plays.

I see a guy who is still weak on his skates who doesn't seem to have a solid base to support himself when in battles along the boards and shielding guys away from the puck in Girgs and you see him lose battles all over the ice consistently and I see a guy like Vesey who has this base down and though it's against weaker competition, it will translate well the NHL game.

Vesey has by far the best shot of the two. He also is the better passer. His overall offensive game is much better.

I'm not buying the idea that BECAUSE Girgs has played against NHL competition that means he's better than Vesey. Girgs is a victim of horrible asset management in terms of his development, all because Nolan wanted that type of game that Girgs brought, all work no system learning. There's aspects of Girgs' game that needs refining and he should be just on the fringe of being an NHL ready player this year, not entering his 5th professional season. I believe Girgs development as a player has been stunted and I blame past Buffalo Management for this. As I said Girgs may have more room to improve, but right now I'd rather have Vesey's game than Girgs'.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but in the above are you suggesting that girgs is a fringe nhler? Or that you think he should have been developing in lesser leagues to have hypothetical girgs about to explode on the scene as a super prospect?

 

[OkimLom]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but in the above are you suggesting that girgs is a fringe nhler? Or that you think he should have been developing in lesser leagues to have hypothetical girgs about to explode on the scene as a super prospect?

I'm suggesting, in a not so great way, that at this point he should be where Bailey is right now. Not exactly a lock to make the team, but wouldn't be shocking if he won a spot.

 

[sabrebuild]

I'm suggesting, in a not so great way, that at this point he should be where Bailey is right now. Not exactly a lock to make the team, but wouldn't be shocking if he won a spot.

Okay. I think that's nuts. I think even in less than ideal development conditions girgs has developed and shown himself to be a very good defensive player. His offensive will rebound with a different role.

 

[Beerz]

I'm suggesting, in a not so great way, that at this point he should be where Bailey is right now. Not exactly a lock to make the team, but wouldn't be shocking if he won a spot.

This is by far the most ridiculous thing I've read this offseason.

 

[Jame]

Okay. I think that's nuts. I think even in less than ideal development conditions girgs has developed and shown himself to be a very good defensive player. His offensive will rebound with a different role.

You mean he'll be on a line that pumps his stats? Or he will develop skills he hasn't shown to this point?

 

[Jame]

I'm suggesting, in a not so great way, that at this point he should be where Bailey is right now. Not exactly a lock to make the team, but wouldn't be shocking if he won a spot.

This is by far the most ridiculous thing I've read this offseason.

It's a tough statement to swallow... and goes a bit too far.... but JT Comper's development path is looking pretty fantastic right now...

The truth is in the statement that this shouldn't be Girgs 5th pro season... it should probably be his 2nd, 3rd at most. He should've spent the first 3 seasons after his draft year in college and the AHL....

 

[jc17]

You mean he'll be on a line that pumps his stats? Or he will develop skills he hasn't shown to this point?

Maybe he'll continue to generate scoring chances like he has the past 2 years and his shooting % will be above 5%.

He scored .95 pts/60 last year 5v5. He could rebound back to 1.46 he had in 2015. Still not great but I think last season's production should be considered a "bad year".

 

[jc17]

It's a tough statement to swallow... and goes a bit too far.... but JT Comper's development path is looking pretty fantastic right now...

The truth is in the statement that this shouldn't be Girgs 5th pro season... it should probably be his 2nd, 3rd at most. He should've spent the first 3 seasons after his draft year in college and the AHL....

It's going to be a miserable few years if Compher, Zadorov, Pysyk and Lemieux blossom and we don't make our anticipated strides.

 

[Jame]

Maybe he'll continue to generate scoring chances like he has the past 2 years and his shooting % will be above 5%.

He scored .95 pts/60 last year 5v5. He could rebound back to 1.46 he had in 2015. Still not great but I think last season's production should be considered a "bad year".

I don't think he'll ever come close to shooting 13% again..

Last year should be considered a bad offensive year... but 2014-15 shouldn't be considered a bench mark either...

That 15 goal season is a mirage... it's 13% shooting with 20% of the goals being shorties...

 

[sabrebuild]

You mean he'll be on a line that pumps his stats? Or he will develop skills he hasn't shown to this point?

I think in his nhl time to this point, he has shown a hard wrist shot, effective power moves and the athletic ability and drive to force opponents into errors in high risk areas; blue line point plays, below the goal line forechecks.

I think his skill set will directly help offensive skill players around him. That will lead to more points for everyone. Whether that is an artificial pumping of his stats or an accurate reflection of his value, will probably be an eye of the beholder test.

As a side note, not everyone is going to become a top level offensive nhler, regardless of lower development, so I'm not sold on girgs being ruined developmentally on coming to the nhl early.

The biggest danger in coming up early to me are physical immaturity and contractual problems.

Very few forwards develop a fantastic offensive game late in their development tracks, say early 20s.

I am very curious to see how Vesey's game translates. Should be interesting.

 

[OkimLom]

I think in his nhl time to this point, he has shown a hard wrist shot, effective power moves and the athletic ability and drive to force opponents into errors in high risk areas; blue line point plays, below the goal line forechecks.

I think his skill set will directly help offensive skill players around him. That will lead to more points for everyone. Whether that is an artificial pumping of his stats or an accurate reflection of his value, will probably be an eye of the beholder test.

As a side note, not everyone is going to become a top level offensive nhler, regardless of lower development, so I'm not sold on girgs being ruined developmentally on coming to the nhl early.

The biggest danger in coming up early to me are physical immaturity and contractual problems.

Very few forwards develop a fantastic offensive game late in their development tracks, say early 20s.

I am very curious to see how Vesey's game translates. Should be interesting.

Bolded: This is assuming that the player went through proper development. We're talking about a guy who went from the USHL, to playing one year under Rolston and played two years under Non-system Nolan. He's now 22 and will turn 23 this upcoming season.

 

[AndrewGaze]

How is everyone feeling about his start of the season?
I feel like he's going to score tonight.

 

[Savitar]

How is everyone feeling about his start of the season?
I feel like he's going to score tonight.

Crystal Ball! Send Fasching to the AHL. Let Girgs play with Baptiste

 

[AndrewGaze]

How is everyone feeling about his start of the season?
I feel like he's going to score tonight.

Called it, boys.
He should play with Ennis more often, or even better, since Moulson isn't doing bad, reunite the three of them.

 

[dasaybz]

So when Kane comes back what does this lineup look like? Is Girgs all the way down to 4th line center?

 

[haseoke39]

So when Kane comes back what does this lineup look like? Is Girgs all the way down to 4th line center?

I think Girgensons stays on that line until Eichel is ready to swap spots with him.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

You mean he'll be on a line that pumps his stats? Or he will develop skills he hasn't shown to this point?

Or has ever shown. He's always been a guy who worked hard and could play defense. The idea that he was somehow going to develop this offensive game is Folignoesque narrative born out of a guy being fed quality minutes on team without other options, kind of like Foligno.

Wow quoted a 2 month old post, nice.

 

[Aladyyn]

Or has ever shown. He's always been a guy who worked hard and could play defense. The idea that he was somehow going to develop this offensive game is Folignoesque narrative born out of a guy being fed quality minutes on team without other options, kind of like Foligno.

Wow quoted a 2 month old post, nice.

I can still see him on Eichel's wing if we go with Reinhart at C.