Player Discussion Zdeno Chara - II

[Glove Malfunction]

Yes and no.

Plus/Minus IMO is more of a team/line stat unless a player goes against the norm. I like to look at individual plays to see context. A Dman could have a bad TO in his own end and a goal is scored. The whole line gets a minus, even if the other 4 guys were doing exactly what they were supposed to.

I have not liked Chara’s play much this year, regardless of what the stats say. His puck handling has been bad, and he turns the puck over a lot. You aren’t going to win in this league unless your team can possess the puck.

I know giveaways as a stat are about as reliable as hits (depends on who is marking it down, and in which arena), but Chara only has 6 official giveaways, though that trails only Marchand with 8. Still, 1 giveaway a game is not a ton. That said, I agree that his puckhandling has been noticeably worse this year. He's still a solid NHL defenseman. For me, extending him mostly depends on the price. (term too, I guess)

 

[Jean_Jacket41]

Only 4 players that have played this year have a positive +/-:

Postma +1 (played only 1 game)
Bergeron +2 (played 2 games)
Marchand +3
Chara +6

Other teams are still not scoring when the best shutdown Dmen in the league is on the ice.

Extend the big men Donny. Do it.

 

[BruinDust]

I know giveaways as a stat are about as reliable as hits (depends on who is marking it down, and in which arena), but Chara only has 6 official giveaways, though that trails only Marchand with 8. Still, 1 giveaway a game is not a ton. That said, I agree that his puckhandling has been noticeably worse this year. He's still a solid NHL defenseman. For me, extending him mostly depends on the price. (term too, I guess)

For me, it's all about term.

As much as I admire and respect Chara, and understand how valuable and effective he still is for the Bruins, I have a really hard time going any more than 1-year at a time for a player, any player, who is 40 and above.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

I know giveaways as a stat are about as reliable as hits (depends on who is marking it down, and in which arena), but Chara only has 6 official giveaways, though that trails only Marchand with 8. Still, 1 giveaway a game is not a ton. That said, I agree that his puckhandling has been noticeably worse this year. He's still a solid NHL defenseman. For me, extending him mostly depends on the price. (term too, I guess)

I believe "giveaways" are probably categorized as turning the puck over under pressure? I'm not sure what the stats say, but I have seen Chara loft the puck out of the zone or bank it off the glass to the other team 6 times in some individual games this year because he backs himself into a corner and runs out of options. To me, that's a turnover, whether the stat guys count it or not.

 

[NDiesel]

For me, it's all about term.

As much as I admire and respect Chara, and understand how valuable and effective he still is for the Bruins, I have a really hard time going any more than 1-year at a time for a player, any player, who is 40 and above.

Absolutely. One year deals until he's cooked.

 

[LSCII]

Absolutely. One year deals until he's cooked.

Can they time travel?

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Let's go at this from a different way then. Stats aside, what have you thought of his play so far this year? Only taking into consideration the eyeball test, not his stats.

most fans are capable of watching the 11 oclock highlight package and will be able to see good hockey. offense... big hits... good saves will impress fans

when a goalie is in position to make a save easily... that doesn't impress fans
when a guy is in the right position that the opposition is blocked out... that doesn't impress fans

very little of chara's game will impress fans

fans notice mistakes too

when a guy plays the most ice time... in the most difficult situations... against the most skilled players on the other team... he will make mistakes

so I'm quite certain the average fans eyeball test will see more to complain about in chara's game than they will see to praise

but nhl coaches and scouting staffs and front office management... who are paid 6 figure salaries to understand the game better than us fans... they still eyeball chara quite favorably

you and I can have a fun debate about this stuff... but the pros will continue to run him out there as our number 1 dman... the stats will continue to be very favorable... opposition players will still dread going against him because he is that damn good

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Let's go at this from a different way then. Stats aside, what have you thought of his play so far this year? Only taking into consideration the eyeball test, not his stats.

most fans are capable of watching the 11 oclock highlight package and will be able to see good hockey. offense... big hits... good saves will impress fans

when a goalie is in position to make a save easily... that doesn't impress fans

when a guy is in the right position that the opposition is blocked out... that doesn't impress fans

very little of chara's game will impress fans

fans notice mistakes too

when a guy plays the most ice time... in the most difficult situations... against the most skilled players on the other team... he will make mistakes

so I'm quite certain the average fans eyeball test will see more to complain about in chara's game than they will see to praise

but nhl coaches and scouting staffs and front office management... who are paid 6 figure salaries to understand the game better than us fans... they still eyeball chara quite favorably
you and I can have a fun debate about this stuff... but the pros will continue to run him out there as our number 1 dman... the stats will continue to be very favorable... opposition players will still dread going against him because he is that damn good

 

[LSCII]

So important you posted it twice?

You and I simply disagree. You can tout his numbers all you want, but they don't reflect the bad plays accordingly, and it's only a matter of time before a poor puck handling moment costs the team. Is he better than most of what they have? Sure. Does he have value? Sure. Is he a number one dman on a cup contending team? No. Not at all. He's a complimentary player at this point in his career. Expecting him to carry the load is unreasonable, and again, will cost the team at some point this season. Just watch because it's a guarantee that it's coming.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

So important you posted it twice?

You and I simply disagree. You can tout his numbers all you want, but they don't reflect the bad plays accordingly, and it's only a matter of time before a poor puck handling moment costs the team. Is he better than most of what they have? Sure. Does he have value? Sure. Is he a number one dman on a cup contending team? No. Not at all. He's a complimentary player at this point in his career. Expecting him to carry the load is unreasonable, and again, will cost the team at some point this season. Just watch because it's a guarantee that it's coming.

its ok to wish we had better players... I wish we had better players. but you take it a step further and imply hes not good now.

it would take one hell of a good player to improve over him. maybe next year he will struggle more... and maybe the year after that. it is logical. most players his age get a little bit worst each year

but its not usually an inability to play that makes them quit. most guys that are still playing at 40 will cite family reasons why they quit. most players will admit its difficult to stay healthy and train right when they hit 40

you see dmen like bourque, chelious, lidstrom turn 40 and still win the Norris or finish top 5... being 40 isn't enough to stop these players from still being great

are they as great as they were at 25 or 30? probably not... but they still get the job done

and chara still gets the job done. hes not a top 5 Norris guy like bourque/chelious/lidstrom but hes still a number 1 dman

yes you and I do disagree on that... but I'm mostly just going with the evidence and what the pros tell me. I'm not smart enough to do the eyeball test to judge a defensive dman. I seriously doubt most of us here are.

so if the fans here want to point out that chara might occasionally turn the puck over... let them. he does. its true... and ultimately it doesn't really matter when we are debating who our best dman is because it is still chara

 

[PB37]

If they can find a dependable guy to work with McAvoy on the top pairing, Chara would fit nicely on our bottom pairing. 18 minutes a night for Chara would be perfect. He still has the ability to be a good dman but I am very concerned with how he's handled the puck this year and his reaction time to plays coming over center ice. Cut his minutes by putting him on the third pairing 5v5 but top pairing 4v5, and watch his mistakes be minimized.

 

[LSCII]

its ok to wish we had better players... I wish we had better players. but you take it a step further and imply hes not good now.

it would take one hell of a good player to improve over him. maybe next year he will struggle more... and maybe the year after that. it is logical. most players his age get a little bit worst each year

but its not usually an inability to play that makes them quit. most guys that are still playing at 40 will cite family reasons why they quit. most players will admit its difficult to stay healthy and train right when they hit 40

you see dmen like bourque, chelious, lidstrom turn 40 and still win the Norris or finish top 5... being 40 isn't enough to stop these players from still being great

are they as great as they were at 25 or 30? probably not... but they still get the job done

and chara still gets the job done. hes not a top 5 Norris guy like bourque/chelious/lidstrom but hes still a number 1 dman

yes you and I do disagree on that... but I'm mostly just going with the evidence and what the pros tell me. I'm not smart enough to do the eyeball test to judge a defensive dman. I seriously doubt most of us here are.

so if the fans here want to point out that chara might occasionally turn the puck over... let them. he does. its true... and ultimately it doesn't really matter when we are debating who our best dman is because it is still chara

This is an incredibly weak argument. "I'm not saying it, this is what I hear from my pro contacts." Really? You want to invalidate the counterpoint to your take and that's how you do it?

Chara is a shell of the player he once was. Chara is a marginal dman. If a cup contender traded for him at the deadline, it would not be for him to anchor their top pairing. So you can save that nonsense. He's turning the puck over too frequently, his spacing on the ice has been suspect, his clearing attempts have been poor (this is a huge issue with literally everyone on the team right now) and he's getting knocked off the puck and his feet way too often, by far smaller players these days, decent plus minus aside.

I said it before, but I'll repeat it now for you: While his gaffes with the puck haven't cost the team yet, it's a matter of time before they do. It's simply the law of averages. At some point, he's going to trip over his own feet when skating out of the zone with the puck, cough the puck up, and it will end up in the back of their net.

 

[LSCII]

If they can find a dependable guy to work with McAvoy on the top pairing, Chara would fit nicely on our bottom pairing. 18 minutes a night for Chara would be perfect. He still has the ability to be a good dman but I am very concerned with how he's handled the puck this year and his reaction time to plays coming over center ice. Cut his minutes by putting him on the third pairing 5v5 but top pairing 4v5, and watch his mistakes be minimized.

I couldn't agree more. He's not a top pairing anchor any longer.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

and yet he plays top pair... anchors... hmmm one of us doesn't seam to like using reality for our arguments and would rather talk about fantasy projections of whether a contender would trade for him and use him bottom pair?

we are going to contend... and we will be using him as our biggest icetime guy in our most important game moments and he will tilt the ice in our favor as he always does and he will be a nightmare for the other team to play again like he always is. one day that might change but it hasn't changed today.

 

[LSCII]

and yet he plays top pair... anchors... hmmm one of us doesn't seam to like using reality for our arguments and would rather talk about fantasy projections of whether a contender would trade for him and use him bottom pair?

we are going to contend... and we will be using him as our biggest icetime guy in our most important game moments and he will tilt the ice in our favor as he always does and he will be a nightmare for the other team to play again like he always is. one day that might change but it hasn't changed today.

You keep going back to this like it's proof he's still a number one dman. It's not. It's an indictment on the team's defensive core.

And this team is not a real contender. They should be a playoff team, but not a real honest to goodness cup caliber team. They're about 2 years away from being that, in all honesty. If you can't admit that, I'm not sure it's worth continuing this discussion.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

You keep going back to this like it's proof he's still a number one dman. It's not. It's an indictment on the team's defensive core.

And this team is not a real contender. They should be a playoff team, but not a real honest to goodness cup caliber team. They're about 2 years away from being that, in all honesty. If you can't admit that, I'm not sure it's worth continuing this discussion.

Results and assignment will answer this for us both. You and i can debate if has more giveaways than he used too. Is his puckhandling worst? Is he as physical?

We can nitpick at aspects of his game

But theres no debate at all hes still a number 1 dman used in the key defensive assignments against the highest level of competition.... AND IS WINNING HIS MATCHUPS

I have no need to try to talk about the small aspects of his game. I agree with you he is less than he used to be. But you are flat out oblivious to reality if you cant see he is still easily our best dman in shutdown assignment and still delivers successful performance.

 

[Mick Riddleton]

He played good tonight, monster on the PK, his skating is better then earlier. Keep it simple, handle the puck quickly. I like him with McAvoy. One year at a time if they decide that, still its October so lets see how he holds up.

 

[missingchicklet]

People were doubting Chara early last season as well, then he ended up having a tremendous season. He still has it. He came up massive on a couple PKs tonight at key times. Might not be what he used to be, but he is still taking on the tough assignments and doing well. Just hope he stays healthy. This team will really struggle if he's not in the lineup.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You keep going back to this like it's proof he's still a number one dman. It's not. It's an indictment on the team's defensive core.

And this team is not a real contender. They should be a playoff team, but not a real honest to goodness cup caliber team. They're about 2 years away from being that, in all honesty. If you can't admit that, I'm not sure it's worth continuing this discussion.

This is an incredibly weak argument. "I'm not saying it, this is what I hear from my pro contacts." Really? You want to invalidate the counterpoint to your take and that's how you do it?

Chara is a shell of the player he once was. Chara is a marginal dman. If a cup contender traded for him at the deadline, it would not be for him to anchor their top pairing. So you can save that nonsense. He's turning the puck over too frequently, his spacing on the ice has been suspect, his clearing attempts have been poor (this is a huge issue with literally everyone on the team right now) and he's getting knocked off the puck and his feet way too often, by far smaller players these days, decent plus minus aside.

I said it before, but I'll repeat it now for you: While his gaffes with the puck haven't cost the team yet, it's a matter of time before they do. It's simply the law of averages. At some point, he's going to trip over his own feet when skating out of the zone with the puck, cough the puck up, and it will end up in the back of their net.

Cassidy said after the game Thursday night that he thinks Chara is still the best PK dman in the league. That's not marginal.

And guess what, Chara has always turned the puck over a lot. But when you're 6'9" and know how to utilize that tremendous reach, recovery is much easier.

He was the Bruins top +/- player last year (as he is currently), playing top minutes against the top lines, a stud on the PK. How is it nonsense to call him a legit top pair defenseman?

 

[DKH]

He played good tonight, monster on the PK, his skating is better then earlier. Keep it simple, handle the puck quickly. I like him with McAvoy. One year at a time if they decide that, still its October so lets see how he holds up.

He may spit up a fur ball tonight but he was as good defensively Thursday I can remember

Year to year makes sense I do not want to hear 2 year deal

 

[Bruinaura]

 

[LSCII]

Cassidy said after the game Thursday night that he thinks Chara is still the best PK dman in the league. That's not marginal.

And guess what, Chara has always turned the puck over a lot. But when you're 6'9" and know how to utilize that tremendous reach, recovery is much easier.

He was the Bruins top +/- player last year (as he is currently), playing top minutes against the top lines, a stud on the PK. How is it nonsense to call him a legit top pair defenseman?

Yes, because Cassidy is really going to crap on the guy through the media. You point out his plus minus leading the team, but he also leads the team in giveaways, with 13, and he had 7 alone last game. So again, I'm not saying he doesn't belong in the NHL. Just that his game has slipped drastically over the last few years and that his giveaways this year will end up hurting the team at some point. Look at the division they play in, all but maybe 2 teams have a better option as their number one than Chara. He's not close to what he once was and at this point would be a complimentary player on a real cup contending team. Everyone keeps on ignoring that specific part of my statement. On a cup contending team. Not here, or on a 8-5 seed type of team. Not on a bad team. But on a team that has a real honest goal of and shot to win a cup.

 

[chizzler]

It's very simple, he's a top player when he isn't gassed. His minutes need to be down to @20. Let the team burn now and reap the bennies later. When he's tired, he's a turn over machine.

 

[NCBruinsfan]

It's very simple, he's a top player when he isn't gassed. His minutes need to be down to @20. Let the team burn now and reap the bennies later. When he's tired, he's a turn over machine.

Yep. Maybe less than 20.

 

[BruinDust]

It's very simple, he's a top player when he isn't gassed. His minutes need to be down to @20. Let the team burn now and reap the bennies later. When he's tired, he's a turn over machine.

Find me a player who doesn't have his performance impacted or makes more mistakes when he's gassed. They don't exist.

Some guys have better endurance than others, no question.

People keep talking about keeping his minutes down, well he's still an elite penalty killer. So if you get a game like the one vs. SJ , where the penalties were 5-1 for SJ from the 2nd period onward, and 6-2 overall, he's going to play more (he played 26:40), pretty simple. I'm not sure what Cassidy is suppose to do about that, use his best PK D-man less?

Then factor in they held a 1 goal lead through the 2nd period onward, how do they keep the minutes of their best defensive LD down in that situation? You can't.

He's averaging 23 mins. a night through 8 games. Other than cutting down on penalties taken, reducing his PK work, I'm not sure how they get his minutes down much further than that.