Zach (lightning rod) Hyman thread: love him or hate him

[ErnieLeafs]

Hyman has a fan club?

To some, if you even remotely condone Hyman's place in the lineup, you have his poster above your bed. It's that kind of simple thinking that makes this place a lot less than it used to be.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

How abut you thinking deeper into why those players are there instead of talking about how they can be "upgraded"?

how else should i take what you said ?

how many of those teams have the depth to put a 20g scorer on the 4th line and 3 other nhl ready frwd prospects either in the press box or the minors ? also how many of those teams won't even try another player on their top line , not to mention how many of those players are incapable of making a pass while moving ?

Our top line doesn't need any changes. It's incredibly effective. Every player on it performs the duties outlined in their role.

 

[saltming]

Our top line doesn't need any changes. It's incredibly effective. Every player on it performs the duties outlined in their role.

It's like this simple concept is rocket science or quantum physics or something incredibly convoluted.

 

[PuckMagi]

Our top line doesn't need any changes. It's incredibly effective. Every player on it performs the duties outlined in their role.

Any line with Matthews and Nylander on it will be effective. The issue is that it could be a lot more effective with a proper 1st line LW as opposed a borderline 4th line grinder with stone hands.

 

[MR4]

Any line with Matthews and Nylander on it will be effective. The issue is that it could be a lot more effective with a proper 1st line LW as opposed a borderline 4th line grinder with stone hands.

Oh, but because the line wasn't awful as a whole, that means Hyman is a key part of it's success!

#hymanfanboylogic

 

[bobermay]

Any line with Matthews and Nylander on it will be effective. The issue is that it could be a lot more effective with a proper 1st line LW as opposed a borderline 4th line grinder with stone hands.

If you can convince me that we can take a player on our roster, put them with Matthews and not only with Matthews' line be better, but the team as a whole will be better... then I'm all for it.

I'm not convinced Brown, Komarov, Martin, Kapanen, Leivo or Soshnikov will make the Matthews line better...

I'm also not convinced the tradoff of putting a JVR or Marleau on Matthews' wing will help the line they're currently on...

 

[PuckMagi]

If you can convince me that we can take a player on our roster, put them with Matthews and not only with Matthews' line be better, but the team as a whole will be better... then I'm all for it.

I'm not convinced Brown, Komarov, Martin, Kapanen, Leivo or Soshnikov will make the Matthews line better...

I'm also not convinced the tradoff of putting a JVR or Marleau on Matthews' wing will help the line they're currently on...

Any of the above players with the exception of Martin would be better than Hyman. Though Marleau is the obvious choice.

It is impossible to prove this to you because Babcock has never tried separating Matthews and Hyman. So I don't know if it's possible to convince you of this.

Putting Hyman on the 4th line would improve the team overall and there would be no downsides to this.

 

[Battle Lin]

matthews and nylander will be on a lot against nhl teams top 2 lines, when your on against these stars you gotta defend them well too, the whole game cant be played in the other end and hyman is among the top defensive forwards in nhl

 

[saltming]

Any of the above players with the exception of Martin would be better than Hyman. Though Marleau is the obvious choice.

It is impossible to prove this to you because Babcock has never tried separating Matthews and Hyman. So I don't know if it's possible to convince you of this.

Putting Hyman on the 4th line would improve the team overall and there would be no downsides to this.

My thoughts are just because those guys are better scorers and or passers than Hyman, it doesn't mean they will make the line better (and better is also subjective)
So replacing Hyman could just as easily ruin the chemistry and efectiveness of that line as much as improve it.
Imo why risk it? I think it takes about 10-20 games together to start building chemistry. If they never find it and in that time the line as we know it now could lose their mojo they have and take several games to recapture it. Suddenly half a season can pass by.

 

[RLF]

so he only scored 6 even strength goals because that isn't his job and he was holding back ?

You know that is not what is meant, so why go there.

No one should expect him to even really come close to Matthews and Nylanders production. If you look at even strength points. Matthews 48, Nylander 35, Hyman 24. That is the only time they play together and Hyman having an off year production wise.

You defended Perreault as a fit for Sheifele and Wheeler. ES points Sheifele 65, Wheeler 35, Perreault 30. Hyman has 50% the production of Matthews and Perreault only 46% of Sheifele and Hyman would be the better forechecker and defensive player.

So curious, how is Perreault ok for that line with his production when they have Laine 50ES and Ehlers with 52 ES points they could use? A way bigger difference than any option on the Leafs compared to Hyman's production (Brown 29 ES, Marner 32ES, Leivo unproven, Marleau 30ES). The max is 8 extra even strength points if you do not take into any accounts the style of play of that line and fit.

Let me guess, because you say it doesn't work and we won't know unless we try.

 

[saltming]

For all the posters saying just plug in this player for Hyman since this player has more point and better hands so the line will be better. Let's look at the Kadri line as an example.
Marleau>Brown.
So by that logic that line should instantly be better. Atm they are not. Probably they will find chemistry and start to work as a line but it's not 100% that they will.
So theoretically replacing Hyman might make the line better but it's a theory a gamble. So why change it if the line is still dominating?

 

[hotpaws]

You know that is not what is meant, so why go there.

No one should expect him to even really come close to Matthews and Nylanders production. If you look at even strength points. Matthews 48, Nylander 35, Hyman 24. That is the only time they play together and Hyman having an off year production wise.

You defended Perreault as a fit for Sheifele and Wheeler. ES points Sheifele 65, Wheeler 35, Perreault 30. Hyman has 50% the production of Matthews and Perreault only 46% of Sheifele and Hyman would be the better forechecker and defensive player.

So curious, how is Perreault ok for that line with his production when they have Laine 50ES and Ehlers with 52 ES points they could use? A way bigger difference than any option on the Leafs compared to Hyman's production (Brown 29 ES, Marner 32ES, Leivo unproven, Marleau 30ES). The max is 8 extra even strength points if you do not take into any accounts the style of play of that line and fit.

Let me guess, because you say it doesn't work and we won't know unless we try.

when did i defend Perreault ? you like to accuse me of spinning your posts but then constantly turn around and ignore what i've said and fabricate points to argue against

I'm not going to go through every teams depth cart as well as also dig up the mins each line combination played just to have you and others ignore them and then again fabricate something i never said to argue against .

yea the vast majority of coach's try different line combinations over the course of the preseason/season and especially if they have the pieces available to them that Babcock has

last year i heard endlessly how Hyman was only a short term stop gap on AM's line to defend him and that he'd be replaced once we had more depth , well here we are with more depth and Hyman is still glued to AM's side without Babcock trying any other combination

i don't get his stubbornness , what could be the possibly downside of jiggling the lines for at least a couple of preseason games outside of letting the fan base see how a different linemate would look with our two elite kids

Babs job is to get the most out team with the pieces available to him , if you think this is the best lineup and combination of said lineup possible then we should just agree to disagree and move on .

 

[saltming]

when did i defend Perreault ? you like to accuse me of spinning your posts but then constantly turn around and ignore what i've said and fabricate points to argue against

I'm not going to go through every teams depth cart as well as also dig up the mins each line combination played just to have you and others ignore them and then again fabricate something i never said to argue against .

yea the vast majority of coach's try different line combinations over the course of the preseason/season and especially if they have the pieces available to them that Babcock has

last year i heard endlessly how Hyman was only a short term stop gap on AM's line to defend him and that he'd be replaced once we had more depth , well here we are with more depth and Hyman is still glued to AM's side without Babcock trying any other combination

i don't get his stubbornness , what could be the possibly downside of jiggling the lines for at least a couple of preseason games outside of letting the fan base see how a different linemate would look with our two elite kids

Babs job is to get the most out team with the pieces available to him , if you think this is the best lineup and combination of said lineup possible then we should just agree to disagree and move on .

Babs uses preseason to "get the big guys ready" not to experiment.
He probably has his ideas and might try things in practices, as I've read tweets of line rushes with different players but likes the lines the way they are now

Babcock: The eight exhibition games are four exhibition games. Your big guys play four games to get ready. You could play less if you wanted. It just gives other people an opportunity. The other thing we tried to do is, by playing our big guys together the last couple, give them practice time and not game time. We spaced them out. I think they actually had three practice days in between. They would tell you that’s too much practice, but it prevents them from playing back-to-back or doing anything silly that might get them hurt. They should be ready to go now. We’ve got a real good medical science group that does a nice job with the rehab and preparation. The guys seem to be healthy.

He uses preseason to ready his team for the regular season and not to experiment.

 

[hotpaws]

Babs uses preseason to "get the big guys ready" not to experiment.
He probably has his ideas and might try things in practices, as I've read tweets of line rushes with different players but likes the lines the way they are now

He uses preseason to ready his team for the regular season and not to experiment.

and other coach's use the preseason to get their "big guys ready" and to try new things to maximize the effectiveness of the players available

the sad part is this isn't even about Babs belief that Hyman is such a great player , if super Zach wasn't here he would have latched onto another similar type guy , he did it for years in Detroit with a washed up Cleary and a low skilled Abdelker , he just has a love affair with these type of guys

thankfully for us LL held the line and even though he overpaid Hyman on Babs behalf he didn't give him an Abdelker type deal i'm sure Babs was pushing for

 

[saltming]

and other coach's use the preseason to get their "big guys ready" and to try new things to maximize the effectiveness of the players available

the sad part is this isn't even about Babs belief that Hyman is such a great player , if super Zach wasn't here he would have latched onto another similar type guy , he did it for years in Detroit with a washed up Cleary and a low skilled Abdelker , he just has a love affair with these type of guys

thankfully for us LL held the line and even though he overpaid Hyman on Babs behalf he didn't give him an Abdelker type deal i'm sure Babs was pushing for

I think this is where the difference lies in our views; I don't mind having the mucker on the line and you see it as a flaw.
So it's a agree to disagree but as long as that line plays as well as it does I will always think I'm right
But seriously the goal is a cup win. If this line ideology or you line ideology gets us there I won't care.

 

[hotpaws]

I think this is where the difference lies in our views; I don't mind having the mucker on the line and you see it as a flaw.
So it's a agree to disagree but as long as that line plays as well as it does I will always think I'm right
But seriously the goal is a cup win. If this line ideology or you line ideology gets us there I won't care.

the difference between us is i expect the mucker to possess at least a modest degree of offensive ability if they are to be played on an offensive line while you seem to not care , Hyman not being able to lift his head while moving to make a decent pass is a flaw , a fatal flaw imo

also i'm not one of these posters that believe you can load a line/lineup with skilled finesse players , i believe in having a mix of players but considering the depth we have at frwd at this moment i believe Babs is doing a disservice to the team by not trying the options available to him

 

[saltming]

the difference between us is i expect the mucker to possess at least a modest degree of offensive ability if they are to be played on an offensive line while you seem to not care , Hyman not being able to lift his head while moving to make a decent pass is a flaw , a fatal flaw imo

also i'm not one of these posters that believe you can load a line/lineup with skilled finesse players , i believe in having a mix of players and considering the depth we have at frwd at this moment i believe Babs is doing a disservice to the team by not trying to options available to him

This brings us to two points; 1st imo Hyman is not as bad as you say he is. That said, what point production would he have to achieve to be upto your standard of the 1st line mucker?
Second I don't see another mucker of Hyman's ilk on the team other than Leo. Marleu is not a mucker, Brown can do it but he is too small and not as fast as Hyman, so who?

 

[Trapper]

This brings us to two points; 1st imo Hyman is not as bad as you say he is. That said, what point production would he have to achieve to be upto your standard of the 1st line mucker?
Second I don't see another mucker of Hyman's ilk on the team other than Leo. Marleu is not a mucker, Brown can do it but he is too small and not as fast as Hyman, so who?

The game can't be solely played on rush alone. Forechecking and pursuit is required. I could play D all night given enough space/time. Count the number of players during the course of a game who effectively engage the opposition down low. Along the boards. Doing this also required the player get leaned on.
Eventually sure we might get a Tkachuk but for now, we don't have a lot of those heavy players. Winnipeg does. We will see the difference in how many cycle. For this reason, and Babcock's, Hyman is a go.

 

[hotpaws]

This brings us to two points; 1st imo Hyman is not as bad as you say he is. That said, what point production would he have to achieve to be upto your standard of the 1st line mucker?
Second I don't see another mucker of Hyman's ilk on the team other than Leo. Marleu is not a mucker, Brown can do it but he is too small and not as fast as Hyman, so who?

Hyman is as bad as i say skill wise , being able to skate lift your head and make a pass is a very basic skill he doesn't possess . Think about this for a second , a NHLer can't make a simply pass while moving , it's f***ing shocking .

It's not simply about point production since leeching points off two elite players isn't some major accomplishment . If we didn't have the options we have i'd agree to spread the talent around and live with Hyman on our top line , however having the depth we do have and Babs still not trying a different combination is unacceptable .

Who says we have to have a pure mucker on our top line ? That's only yours and Babs opinion .

and you have an excuse for everyone not being able to fill the Hyman's tiny shoes

Browns too small
Marleau's not a mucker
Levio is half a step slow
Kap is whatever non sense you pull out of your ass at the moment

also the funny thing is and i said it before is where were all these poster screaming for Hyman to be played with Mathews last off season ? We have endless line up threads and yet i don't remember one poster saying Hyman should be glued to Mathews hip .

surely for all these poster screaming how he's the best option they'd be at least a few who believe and posted it this last off season

 

[saltming]

The game can't be solely played on rush alone. Forechecking and pursuit is required. I could play D all night given enough space/time. Count the number of players during the course of a game who effectively engage the opposition down low. Along the boards. Doing this also required the player get leaned on.
Eventually sure we might get a Tkachuk but for now, we don't have a lot of those heavy players. Winnipeg does. We will see the difference in how many cycle. For this reason, and Babcock's, Hyman is a go.

That's right but some posters don't seem to appreciate what that forechecker endures or the skill needed to be effective at it.

Tkachuk is the dream. I wonder if Burke would trade him and a 1st for jvr?

 

[saltming]

Hyman is as bad as i say skill wise , being able to skate lift your head and make a pass is a very basic skill he doesn't possess . Think about this for a second , a NHLer can't make a simply pass while moving , it's ****ing shocking .

It's not simply about point production since leeching points off two elite players isn't some major accomplishment . If we didn't have the options we have i'd agree to spread the talent around and live with Hyman on our top line , however having the depth we do have and Babs still not trying a different combination is unacceptable .

Who says we have to have a pure mucker on our top line ? That's only yours and Babs opinion .

and you have an excuse for everyone not being able to fill the Hyman's tiny shoes

Browns too small
Marleau's not a mucker
Levio is half a step slow
Kap is whatever non sense you pull out of your ass at the moment

also the funny thing is and i said it before is where were all these poster screaming for Hyman to be played with Mathews last off season ? We have endless line up threads and yet i don't remember one poster saying Hyman should be glued to Mathews hip .

surely for all these poster screaming how he's the best option they'd be at least a few who believe and posted it this last off season

[yt]
Looked like he had his head up there to see where Matthews was and he had a defender on his back and was drawing another defender to him opening space for Matthews.
I think you suffer from confirmation bias. He is not as bad as you think.
As for last year off season lineups, nobody here thought that line would be as good as they are that's why NONE of us work in the NHL
Hell even Babcock said he had to see how they played together but he thought they would be good together.

 

[Trapper]

That's right but some posters don't seem to appreciate what that forechecker endures or the skill needed to be effective at it.

Tkachuk is the dream. I wonder if Burke would trade him and a 1st for jvr?

LOL I wish. Tkachuk, Jenner,someone of this ilk would be ideal.
We aren't a heavy team. This is also an issue along with team defense. Do we wish Hyman was a 20 goal scorer? Of course. But in addition to skill, you also need to be able to play a cycle game. Do people want Nylander or Hyman getting leaned on for 82 games? Someone on each line needs to be able to battle along the wall and down low. That's half of how the game is played. When contact/physical play is removed, then we can change.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Oh, but because the line wasn't awful as a whole, that means Hyman is a key part of it's success!

#hymanfanboylogic

Using the term "fanboy" is both juvenile and cringeworthy. Unless you're actually 12, be better.

 

[saltming]

LOL I wish. Tkachuk, Jenner,someone of this ilk would be ideal.
We aren't a heavy team. This is also an issue along with team defense. Do we wish Hyman was a 20 goal scorer? Of course. But in addition to skill, you also need to be able to play a cycle game. Do people want Nylander or Hyman getting leaned on for 82 games? Someone on each line needs to be able to battle along the wall and down low. That's half of how the game is played. When contact/physical play is removed, then we can change.

Ideally I would want a heavy fast forward in return for JVR. We have some possibilities in the pipeline but they are a couple years away imo.
Then we have a heavy on each line
Hyman
???
Komarov
Martin
And if ??? is a better fit with Matthews then switch it up

 

[Damisoph]

Anyone know how to put a thread on ignore?