"You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain": Leo Komarov

[diceman934]

What is this supposed to address?


Perhaps. Point was that if looking at goals and assists to determine worth is bad, looking at hits and blocks is worse.


No. Dead even.


Sure, it is safe. It's also not very effective.


And I see an arrogant retort that disparages others but only offers cliches without any context. So he takes a hit to make a play, great. It doesn't help him make good plays. You talk about grunt work to allow us zone time. Fine, but he doesn't help us get the puck in effectively and we have precious little zone time with him on the ice. Look up a few posts and you'll see that I outlined all the areas where he is statistically among our worst players. Yet he is played as if he is among our best players.

Arrogant you have that covered..

He hits a lot and has taken 5 minor penalties. Plays his rear end off on the PK as well as keeps the puck safe something you dismiss but it is vitally important when you are matched up against the other teams best players. Why I even have to bring this up is laughable as it should be common knowledge about people who profess to know something about hockey when the opposite is true.

He dumps the puck in and forechecks does not monkey around and turn the puck over between the blue lines. He is great on the cycle and screens the goalie better then anyone we have on the team.

I have never been a big Leo supporter but this thread is a joke as it fails to take into consideration his real worth. He is a plus in giveway takeaway stat playing against the best the league has to offer.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Arrogant you have that covered..

By providing actual arguments instead of saying that everybody who disagrees don't know hockey? I'm not the one who needs to disparage others here.

He hits a lot and has taken 5 minor penalties.

Which is as many as he's drawn. Evens out.

Plays his rear end off on the PK

Absolutely. Has no bearing on how he should be used at even strength though.

keeps the puck safe something you dismiss but it is vitally important when you are matched up against the other teams best players.

I haven't dismissed it. Playing safe is something you do to help limit opposition from creating chances. That's what matters, and Komarov hasn't done well in that regard. And even by only looking at that, we are setting our ambitions at turtling and praying for the best in that match up, which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for Leo.

Why I even have to bring this up is laughable as it should be common knowledge about people who profess to know something about hockey when the opposite is true.

You don't need to bring it up, you only seem to do because you fabricate some imaginary position of mine so you don't have to address what I say. At no point did I in any way argue that playing safe is not valuable, or something you want in match up situations. I only said that it doesn't weigh up the rest of his impact even when looking at that particular area of the game.

He dumps the puck in and forechecks does not monkey around and turn the puck over between the blue lines.

And his success rate for zone entries is bad in general. He is decent for sure on dumping the puck in, can't carry it in at all, and the result is that he doesn't help us very much in that area.

He is great on the cycle

Yet our cycle game dies with him on the ice.

screens the goalie better then anyone we have on the team.

Yet goalies seem to have little trouble saving the shots.

I have never been a big Leo supporter but this thread is a joke as it fails to take into consideration his real worth.

His real worth is on the PK. Nobody is taking that away from him.

He is a plus in giveway takeaway stat playing against the best the league has to offer.

Oh, that changes everything. Such a reliable and useful stat that one. But that is basically just the same thing as you mentioned earlier, that he is safe. Being safe is not on its own a reason to play someone top line minutes.

So basically, we are to ignore that he's got awful possession numbers, that he doesn't produce, that he is involved in less offense than almost anyone on the team, that he is bad at zone exits and entries, and be happy with him playing top line minutes for us... because he's safe and can screen the goalie?

 

[diceman934]

By providing actual arguments instead of saying that everybody who disagrees don't know hockey? I'm not the one who needs to disparage others here.


Which is as many as he's drawn. Evens out.


Absolutely. Has no bearing on how he should be used at even strength though.


I haven't dismissed it. Playing safe is something you do to help limit opposition from creating chances. That's what matters, and Komarov hasn't done well in that regard. And even by only looking at that, we are setting our ambitions at turtling and praying for the best in that match up, which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for Leo.


You don't need to bring it up, you only seem to do because you fabricate some imaginary position of mine so you don't have to address what I say.


And his success rate for zone entries is bad in general.


Yet our cycle game dies with him on the ice.


Yet goalies seem to have little trouble saving the shots.


His real worth is on the PK. Nobody is taking that away from him.


Oh, that changes everything. Such a reliable and useful stat that one. But that is basically just the same thing as you mentioned earlier, that he is safe. Being safe is not on its own a reason to play someone top line minutes.

So basically, we are to ignore that he's got awful possession numbers, that he doesn't produce, that he is involved in less offense than almost anyone on the team, that he is bad at zone exits and entries, and be happy with him playing top line minutes for us... because he's safe and can screen the goalie?

Get over your self everything I posted is real and if you do not like it to bad. Like I said this thread is a joke with a bunch of hot takes from people who look at number and have no ability to break down a game and understand just what is being accomplished.

Carry on but if you can not even see that Leo plays a game that helps us by limiting zone time by not giving the puck away, dumping the puck in and using his body and on ice positioning without over committing as well as every thing else I said, then you lack a grasp on what our coach is asking him to do. I stand by my opinion that number people who do not understand the game think he is not a good player. He is for all the reasons I have presented, hence my comments of lacking ability to assess a game based on the knowledge of the expectations of the coach... you know the guy who control who goes on the ice and who does not.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Get over your self everything I posted is real and if you do not like it to bad. Like I said this thread is a joke with a bunch of hot takes from people who look at number and have no ability to break down a game and understand just what is being accomplished.

Carry on but if you can not even see that Leo plays a game that helps us by limiting zone time by not giving the puck away, dumping the puck in and using his body and on ice positioning without over committing as well as every thing else I said, then you lack a grasp on what our coach is asking him to do.

I see that Leo doesn't give the puck away, dumps it in well and uses his body. I also take into account everything else that he needs to do on the ice, and I evaluate the whole.

If our coach is seriously playing someone that much in that crucial role only because of a few basics like that, then that's grounds for criticism as well. Almost nobody can be judged on such narrow grounds. I would hesitate to even judge Matt Martin on so few things.

For someone who feels the need to berate and degrade others in every post, you sure struggle to formulate a strong case. Should be easy if his value and contributions as one of our premier forwards are so obvious.

 

[diceman934]

I see that Leo doesn't give the puck away, dumps it in at times and uses his body. I also take into account everything else that he needs to do on the ice, and I evaluate the whole.

If our coach is seriously playing someone that much in that crucial role only because he is safe with the puck and has the ability to dump the puck in, then that's grounds for criticism as well. Almost nobody can be judged on such narrow grounds. I would hesitate to even judge Matt Martin on so few things.

For someone who feels the need to berate and degrade others in every post, you sure struggle to formulate a strong case. Should be easy if his value and contributions as one of our premier forwards are so obvious.

Like I said above get over your self. I posted my opinion and will stick by it...our coach plays him a lot because he is doing the things that are asked if him. If you do not like that take it up with our coach as he obviously likes what Leo brings. I posted why Babcock likes him and you seem to think everything is measurable when it simple is not.

Stop putting words in my mouth or taking one point and attempt to make it look like the mean point. I painted a very complete picture of why he has value to our team and you want to twist it around to seem like I said one thing only.


Argue all you want about value by simply put Babcock says your are wrong.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Like I said above get over your self. I posted my opinion and will stick by it

Get over what? I'm not allowed to discuss things? And yeah, it's quite obvious you have your mind made up and will stick to it no matter what.

our coach plays him a lot because he is doing the things that are asked if him.

Perhaps. Or he's playing him a lot to tell our youngsters that if they want his minutes, they have to match him in his work ethic, not just exceed him in skill.

I posted why Babcock likes him

No you posted why you think he does well. At no point did you provide a quote from Babcock.

you seem to think everything is measurable when it simple is not.

I do not. Again fabricating positions from thin air. I do believe certain things are measurable, such as how often someone draws penalties.

Stop putting words in my mouth or taking one point and attempt to make it look like the mean point.

If you feel I did that then I apologize. Kindly point out where so I can change it.

I painted a very complete picture of why he has value to our team and you want to twist it around to seem like I said one thing only.

You honestly believe that was a very complete picture?

Argue all you want about value by simply put Babcock says your are wrong.

Babcock says I'm wrong?

Didn't notice him participating in the discussion.

 

[Battle Lin]

his defensive play and pk has always been strong...but man the O is really starting to affect his line, i mean moore and martin are contributing more on offense, jeeze even borgman is

komarov is on pace for 17 points, 17 points

 

[TML Dynasty]

I posted my opinion and will stick by it...

Kind of says it all.

I like Leo a lot but feel he doesn't have a place on the team beyond the 4th line and PK abilities. 4th line minutes and then the PK would be beneficial to all involved. As mentioned earlier it would allow him to play out his year without being exposed or thrown to the wolves. His language skills are also a huge asset when bringing in players from overseas (I have absolutely no proof of this but it has to be doesn't it?)

I think this is another case of: we wont know if it would be better unless we try it. Give Leo 4th line mins. Give Kadri a defensively responsible winger (due matchups) that can also compliment his offensive skill.

Fav Leo moment was him patting the defenceman on the shoulder after scoring a goal. LOLOLOL

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

he gets way too many minutes. I thought Matthews coming back would help with that, but he still got 18 minutes and 2:30 of powerplay time. it makes no sense

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Get over your self everything I posted is real and if you do not like it to bad. Like I said this thread is a joke with a bunch of hot takes from people who look at number and have no ability to break down a game and understand just what is being accomplished.

Carry on but if you can not even see that Leo plays a game that helps us by limiting zone time by not giving the puck away, dumping the puck in and using his body and on ice positioning without over committing as well as every thing else I said, then you lack a grasp on what our coach is asking him to do. I stand by my opinion that number people who do not understand the game think he is not a good player. He is for all the reasons I have presented, hence my comments of lacking ability to assess a game based on the knowledge of the expectations of the coach... you know the guy who control who goes on the ice and who does not.

then why does he give up more scoring chances against while he's on the ice than he generates?

 

[Bluelines]

Great game by Leo last night bravo for outstanding defensive play, clearly our best defensive forward.

Agitated, fore-checked, drew penalties we are lucky to have a JYD like Leo. It lets all our softer players play offence.

 

[Bluelines]

then why does he give up more scoring chances against while he's on the ice than he generates?

Because if you;d take of your hate blinders for one second you;d see that he plays consistently in situations against opposing players who drive offence.

I serious think that Leaf fans are among the least knowledgeable hockey fans in the world. Its call HOCKEY not SHINNY someone has to defend.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Because if you;d take of your hate blinders for one second you;d see that he plays consistently in situations against opposing players who drive offence.

I serious think that Leaf fans are among the least knowledgeable hockey fans in the world. Its call HOCKEY not SHINNY someone has to defend.

so do Matthews/Hyman/Nylander/Kadri/Marleau/Rielly/Hainsey
none of those guys seem to have the same problem though

Also not sure why you think getting pushed in badly counts as good defending. If Komarov wasn't so awful offensively he'd have to defend less, which is a good thing

 

[Bluelines]

If Komarov wasn't so awful offensively he'd have to defend less, which is a good thing

LOL, not saying he is a Selke cause he is not but if those Selke winners weren't so awful they wouldn't have to defend so much. If those Veznia goalies weren't so horrible they wouldn't have to stop the puck so much.

If you want to truly understand hockey watch an entire period of hockey but don't watch the puck carrier once, you'll learn why Leo is so valuable. Watch how people find open ice, watch how people have open ice taken away, watch the game away from the game and you might start to understand this beautiful game and why Leo is so much better than you think.

Leo still reads and defends and a very high level. He is without a doubt our #1 worker bee.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

LOL, not saying he is a Selke cause he is not but if those Selke winners weren't so awful they wouldn't have to defend so much. If those Veznia goalies weren't so horrible they wouldn't have to stop the puck so much.

If you want to truly understand hockey watch an entire period of hockey but don't watch the puck carrier once, you'll learn why Leo is so valuable. Watch how people find open ice, watch how people have open ice taken away, watch the game away from the game and you might start to understand this beautiful game and why Leo is so much better than you think.

Leo still reads and defends and a very high level. He is without a doubt our #1 worker bee.

what are you going on about? Patrice Bergeron (the Selke winner) had stats that looked like this
61.1 cf%
55 gf%
62 xgf%

Komarov has stats that look like this
44 cf%
40 gf%
47 xgf%

Obviously Bergeron's greatness comes from having to defend less, leading to him not getting scored on as much. I don't know why you think it's a goalie's fault if they have to stop the puck also

If you truly want to understand hockey, first you must realize that the goal is to outscore your opponent. Not to play in your defensive end the whole game being a good pro

 

[Bullseye]

This is a very emotional thread - almost Hymanesque. I've always liked Leo but he's gone undeniably south this season.

I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in here and get dumped on for it. Komarov does some things really well:

• wins face/offs
• blocks shots
• PK's with the best in the league
• hits and agitates on an elite level

He does not:

• have any offensive acumen anymore
• know how to keep possession of the puck in any zone

Martin on Kadri's wing would be a better option for the leafs if they want a banger/agitator with speed who can regain and keep puck possession and chip in offensively. Leo is great on the PK but serves little other purpose right now. Dump away - I won't hold it against you because many of you I respect very much despite still seeing Leo as a driving force on the Leafs which he is clearly not anymore.

 

[diceman934]

This is a very emotional thread - almost Hymanesque. I've always liked Leo but he's gone undeniably south this season.

I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in here and get dumped on for it. Komarov does some things really well:

• wins face/offs
• blocks shots
• PK's with the best in the league
• hits and agitates on an elite level

He does not:

• have any offensive acumen anymore
• know how to keep possession of the puck in any zone

Martin on Kadri's wing would be a better option for the leafs if they want a banger/agitator with speed who can regain and keep puck possession and chip in offensively. Leo is great on the PK but serves little other purpose right now. Dump away - I won't hold it against you because many of you I respect very much despite still seeing Leo as a driving force on the Leafs which he is clearly not anymore.

He never really was good offensively he had a good year. His first year in the NHL he had less points and every one loved him.

He knows how to keep possession of the puck in the O zone but remember it takes a unit of 5 to do so and he is constantly playing against the other teams best.

Last night on the Pk he was a beast he kept possession of the puck in the O zone by kicking it around and protecting the puck with his body same as in the D zone. He saved a goal in the back check and drew a penalty. He wins key faceoffs as well as is the best steer man on our team forcing D man to use their back hand coming from behind the net he almost created the 4 goal last night doing this.

I have never been a huge fan but in my opinion this thread is a embarrassment as it looks only at offensive stats as a measuring stick when his value is not as an offensive player but a player who plays against all the top players and plays a shutdown role and I see the value he brings as he plays that role perfectly.


One last thing Martin plays against 4 line players and gets sheltered with zone starts and he is also playing with one top line winger for most of the season he would get eaten up playing against the top lines and comparing Leo and Martin in any way is way off base.

 

[diceman934]

what are you going on about? Patrice Bergeron (the Selke winner) had stats that looked like this
61.1 cf%
55 gf%
62 xgf%

Komarov has stats that look like this
44 cf%
40 gf%
47 xgf%

Obviously Bergeron's greatness comes from having to defend less, leading to him not getting scored on as much. I don't know why you think it's a goalie's fault if they have to stop the puck also

If you truly want to understand hockey, first you must realize that the goal is to outscore your opponent. Not to play in your defensive end the whole game being a good pro

You said an interesting thing. You must out score your opponent and I can not agree more.

We are doing just that out scoring our opponents. We use players in roles that aid in that. Kadri and Leo have played with different wingers but for the most part they play against the other teams best players and their main job is to limit their scoring chances. Then if the other two offensive lines can out score our opponents lines we win. This is exactly how we are doing it.

Why we are comparing a winger to a center is beyond me. Exspecially a center who plays with his teams best wingers. I also do not think anyone is claiming that Leo is a Selke candidate

 

[thewave]

Good soldier probably only worth 1.5m x2 and that's if you can handle him sliding up from the 4th line in the event of injury. Not a top 9 player anymore.

 

[Ratboy]

Like mentioned above, he's regressed to a 4th liner. I loved the guy when he used to hit everything that moved, but now that he doesn't do that anymore his value is lower. His best attribute was his agitator role, and the year he was an all star he was playing on the first line and was a completely different player.

I wish we could find a way to get him to play the way he used to (I've even got the guys jersey), but I fear his best days are over.

 

[Menzinger]

what are you going on about? Patrice Bergeron (the Selke winner) had stats that looked like this
61.1 cf%
55 gf%
62 xgf%

Komarov has stats that look like this
44 cf%
40 gf%
47 xgf%

Obviously Bergeron's greatness comes from having to defend less, leading to him not getting scored on as much. I don't know why you think it's a goalie's fault if they have to stop the puck also

If you truly want to understand hockey, first you must realize that the goal is to outscore your opponent. Not to play in your defensive end the whole game being a good pro

His dropping possession numbers are concerning considering he gets so much icetime.

I wonder if he’d respond better to a “less is more” type of usage.

 

[supermann_98]

He should be on the 4th line behind Martin at ES and kill penalties and maybe be on to defend in the dying minutes, and that’s it.

No way he should even get a sniff of PP time, not 1 second

 

[Nithoniniel]

Komarov is on pace for 17 points, 17 points!

This is bad enough at first glance, but it's actually much worse than that. Of those 8 points that Komarov have scored, 4 have been on empty net situations, and another was when the goalie had left the net and was trying to get back.

Not counting empty net production, Komarov has 3 points halfway through the season. Yet there are actually posters who disparage those that consider that an issue for someone playing 18 minutes per game lately as people who don't understand hockey. He's pacing for 7 non-empty net points playing big minutes with guys like Marleau and Kadri.

And that's on top of bad individual participation stats, bad possession stats, bad transition stats, bad defensive stats compared to others playing similarly difficult minutes. But hey, who cares about all that? He takes hits to make plays, dumps the puck in, knows how to play the right way.

 

[A1LeafNation]

I think Komarov realizes he can't 100+ games the way he use to anymore..

I'd like to see if he is saving the way he can play for the playoffs.

 

[Mr Hockey]

This is bad enough at first glance, but it's actually much worse than that. Of those 8 points that Komarov have scored, 4 have been on empty net situations, and another was when the goalie had left the net and was trying to get back.

Not counting empty net production, Komarov has 3 points halfway through the season. Yet there are actually posters who disparage those that consider that an issue for someone playing 18 minutes per game lately as people who don't understand hockey. He's pacing for 7 non-empty net points playing big minutes with guys like Marleau and Kadri.

And that's on top of bad individual participation stats, bad possession stats, bad transition stats, bad defensive stats compared to others playing similarly difficult minutes. But hey, who cares about all that? He takes hits to make plays, dumps the puck in, knows how to play the right way.

How many points does Leo need to produce in order for us to be considered a legit contender or win the Cup?