Would a Vegas SC be grounds for firing DT?

[Haj]

I'd add the signing of Vrbata to the bad list.

Overall a solid assessment.

He was so invisible that I forgot we signed him. Yes, that was a bad move.

 

[vendetta]

Very much this. In time, giving away Smith and Marchessault for free (literally for free; the deal was "we'll give you Marchessault to clear our books of Smith's salary so we can keep Bjugstad and Petrovic/Pysyk") will probably be seen as one of the dumbest transaction blunders in recent hockey history. Just an absolute head scratcher that defies any rhyme or reason. Frankly, my jaw is still on the floor over how short sighted and poorly thought out that move was.

Were I the owner of the Panthers, I would have blocked that transaction or fired Tallon were it executed under my watch.

But that was almost a year ago. He should have been fired then. It makes no sense to fire him now given our recent front office revolving door.

You guys gotta quit acting like these moves were done to protect player x or y
Over smith. Those weren’t options. Debate the cost of losing smith which is fine but smith wasn’t talons doing. I understand fans gonna fan and be mad we lost some
Good players but the idea of Tallon just losing his mind and going rogue is getting old and tired. I don’t get the point of just refusing to accept what actually happened. I guess fans aren’t supposed to understand behind the scenes working but this idea that Tallon lost his mind is just getting tired and contributes nothing to these boards.

 

[RainingRats]

You can't expect a GM to get every single move right.

That being said the Marchessault and Smith to Vegas strategy was a complete disaster (as it stands right now).

We would have been better off this past season if Vegas had simply selected just one of Marcheassault, Smith, Bjugstad, or Petrovic.

We likely make the playoffs by just losing one asset instead of two. Arguably, you could say we also make playoffs if ownership doesn't fire Gallant for seemingly no reason. Or if Boughner plays an optmial lineup for a few more games, or if we beat Ottawa, Edmonton, MTL.

You can make a whole list of reasons of why we didn't get an extra point.


Here are the Tallon moves that worked:
Trading for Vatrano
Signing Dadonov ( Speculation: which doesn't happen if Smith is kept due to internal cap ?)
Signing Sateri (His five wins saved the season)
Waived Jokinen
Did not Sign Jagr

Moves that did not work:
Trading Marchesssault for a 4th Round pick so that VGK takes Reilly Smith

I put the Boughner hire in the maybe category. I have no idea how he will turn out, but he is currently an average coach.

I'd rank Dale Tallon as the 10th - 15th best GM in the league. I do not think he should be fired, odds are we get a GM much worse. Firing the GM would cause more instability and complete organizational upheaval. In particular, our scouting staff has been doing better for the past few drafts. Fire the GM and that might stop if the new GM makes changes.

Additionally, your criteria for firing a GM suggests that all 31 teams who do not win a Stanley Cup should be fired. Multiple teams made mistakes at the expansion draft which has helped out Vegas.

If you were to list all the GMs, he wouldn't crack the top 15. He probably wouldn't crack the top 20 either. He's in the 20-25 range.

 

[vendetta]

If you were to list all the GMs, he wouldn't crack the top 15. He probably wouldn't crack the top 20 either. He's in the 20-25 range.

Just flat out wrong. When left uninterfered with he’s done a good job here and has completely built the organization from top to bottom and did it in the time frame he said which is almost unheard of. There’s a lot more to a gms success than any fan can see

 

[Bobblebee]

if missed nets get a C removed then how in the flying **** does mackenzie still have that thing

That's macK we're comparing a reasonably decent player to a terrible player.

 

[RainingRats]

Just flat out wrong. When left uninterfered with he’s done a good job here and has completely built the organization from top to bottom and did it in the time frame he said which is almost unheard of. There’s a lot more to a gms success than any fan can see

He's been rebuilding for 8 years now. Was gifted a great core through the draft and the computer boys locked them up at a great rate. He also blew the expansion draft. Computer boys also got him his best d-man and some draft picks that are looking really good.

Not sure what you mean by the last sentence.

Feel free to list 15 GMs he's better than.

Teams with a better GM than what we have with Tallon.
Anaheim
Boston
Chicago
Columbus
Dallas
Los Angeles
Minnesota
Nashville
New Jersey
New York Rangers
Ottawa
Philly
Pittsburgh
San Jose
St. Louis
Tampa
Toronto
Vegas
Washington
Winnipeg

That's 20! Which puts Tallon in the 20-25 range at best, imo.

Starts to get debatable around Islanders, Calgary, Detroit (Detroit may be in a transition period), Arizona (too early to judge but Tallon is better)

He's def better than Vancouver, Montreal, Edmonton, and Buffalo.

I left out Carolina.

 

[FlaPanthers11]

He's been rebuilding for 8 years now. Was gifted a great core through the draft and the computer boys locked them up at a great rate. He also blew the expansion draft. Computer boys also got him his best d-man and some draft picks that are looking really good.

Not sure what you mean by the last sentence.

Feel free to list 15 GMs he's better than.

Teams with a better GM than what we have with Tallon.
Anaheim
Boston
Chicago
Columbus
Dallas
Los Angeles
Minnesota
Nashville
New Jersey
New York Rangers
Ottawa
Philly
Pittsburgh
San Jose
St. Louis
Tampa
Toronto
Vegas
Washington
Winnipeg

That's 20! Which puts Tallon in the 20-25 range at best, imo.

Starts to get debatable around Islanders, Calgary, Detroit (Detroit may be in a transition period), Arizona (too early to judge but Tallon is better)

He's def better than Vancouver, Montreal, Edmonton, and Buffalo.

I left out Carolina.

The bolded are certainly controversial.

 

[Haj]

Better GMs than Tallon [11]: Boston, Columbus, Minnesota, Nashville, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Tampa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Vegas

On par with Tallon [9]: St. Louis, Chicago, Anaheim, Washington, New Jersey, Buffalo, New York Rangers, Los Angeles, Colorado

Worse than Tallon [8]: New York Islanders, Calgary, Detroit, Vancouver, Montreal, Edmonton, Dallas, Ottawa

Unknown[2]: Carolina, Arizona

- I considered moving Vegas down because of McPhee's previous track record with the Capitals
- I think Ron Francis did a fine job except for getting goaltending

Depending on you rank the middle tier Tallon winds up either as the 12th best GM or 20th best GM. If you consider Arizona and Carolina's GMs as better than he can top out at 14 or bottom out at 22.

 

[vendetta]

He's been rebuilding for 8 years now. Was gifted a great core through the draft and the computer boys locked them up at a great rate. He also blew the expansion draft. Computer boys also got him his best d-man and some draft picks that are looking really good.

Not sure what you mean by the last sentence.

Feel free to list 15 GMs he's better than.

Teams with a better GM than what we have with Tallon.
Anaheim
Boston
Chicago
Columbus
Dallas
Los Angeles
Minnesota
Nashville
New Jersey
New York Rangers
Ottawa
Philly
Pittsburgh
San Jose
St. Louis
Tampa
Toronto
Vegas
Washington
Winnipeg

That's 20! Which puts Tallon in the 20-25 range at best, imo.

Starts to get debatable around Islanders, Calgary, Detroit (Detroit may be in a transition period), Arizona (too early to judge but Tallon is better)

He's def better than Vancouver, Montreal, Edmonton, and Buffalo.

I left out Carolina.

He made the playoffs twice before management interfered. He did it
I’m a reasonable time
Frame as well considering the massive overhaul that took place throughout their entire pro system. The team
Is clearly back on the right track since he was asked to bail out the owners foolish mistakes. There’s
No such thing as rebuild being over in the salary cap nhl. Also a lot of those teams u listed as better are living on previous players from well before Tallon. Again none of our impact players other than Yandle are I their prime yet. We have no legit players from before 2010. Those r the players currently carrying a lot of those other teams. If people would just understand drafting
And how long it takes to build an entire roster and ahl and echl team
From ground up Tallon has
Been more then fine

 

[pantherbot]

Top 15, top 20.... I'm just glad we have a gm that isn't the 31st best! I think people forget just how bad it was before Tallon.

I think he's made some good moved and some bad. We'll never be able to accurately judge him because of the debacle of last season. Sure the core didn't change much but the behind the scenes stuff just gutted this team. Maybe without the injuries they could have been ok, we'll never know.

The expansion draft I blame him and ownership both. Tallon for not being more creative somehow or convincing ownership/smith to stay the course. We still don't completely know who wanted out more, but it's still the gm's job to build the best team and that was just a mess. Even if you forget about that whole weird transaction, having both pysyk and petrovic protected was just stupid.

But at the end of the day, Tallon has done at least a decent job of bringing some semblance of respectability back to this team. There's nobody really available to replace him and firing him again would set this team back into disarray and we really can't afford that again.

I truly think with our very good young core, even a toddler or Mike Milbury could build a competitor as long as ownership is willing to spend. This offseason will be very telling into whether ownership is serious or not.

 

[letsgrowcactus]

He's been rebuilding for 8 years now. Was gifted a great core through the draft and the computer boys locked them up at a great rate. He also blew the expansion draft. Computer boys also got him his best d-man and some draft picks that are looking really good.

Not sure what you mean by the last sentence.

Feel free to list 15 GMs he's better than.

Teams with a better GM than what we have with Tallon.
Anaheim
Boston
Chicago
Columbus
Dallas
Los Angeles
Minnesota
Nashville
New Jersey
New York Rangers
Ottawa
Philly
Pittsburgh
San Jose
St. Louis
Tampa
Toronto
Vegas
Washington
Winnipeg

That's 20! Which puts Tallon in the 20-25 range at best, imo.

Starts to get debatable around Islanders, Calgary, Detroit (Detroit may be in a transition period), Arizona (too early to judge but Tallon is better)

He's def better than Vancouver, Montreal, Edmonton, and Buffalo.

I left out Carolina.

I don't think Detroit is debatable. Holland may have been great before the salary cup but right now Detroit is pretty much screwed for years to come - and it's not like they made a run at the Cup and failed; it was just about preserving that 25 year playoff streak. Meh.

 

[16Skippy]

No offence but I think it would have been better to just bump the previous poll and see who changed their minds.

 

[KW]

Tallon's biggest mistake is not protecting Marchessault.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Tallon's biggest mistake is not protecting Marchessault.

To me Smith is the biggest loss.

They searched for a 2RW for Trocheck all year long.

Huby Tro and Smith would have taken us to the playoffs.

 

[PBPantherfan]

To me Smith is the biggest loss.

They searched for a 2RW for Trocheck all year long.

Huby Tro and Smith would have taken us to the playoffs.

Not to mention Smith could kill some penalties as well. Pretty sure if the owners had opened the checkbook the expansion draft doesn’t happen the way it did. Doesn’t excuse losing both those guys for a 4th, but everybody on here who has George McPhee on the great GM list remember he traded Forsberg for Erat. Nobody is a perfect GM.

 

[Chino Oscar]

For f***s sake... this f***ing topic again? Life goes on, carry on, move on, whaterver you wan't to call it.

 

[KW]

For ****s sake... this ****ing topic again? Life goes on, carry on, move on, whaterver you wan't to call it.

It's hard because it was such a massive screw up. I'll try.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

It's hard because it was such a massive screw up. I'll try.

I feel the same way about the 2016 offseason.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

He's been rebuilding for 8 years now. Was gifted a great core through the draft and the computer boys locked them up at a great rate. He also blew the expansion draft. Computer boys also got him his best d-man and some draft picks that are looking really good.

Not sure what you mean by the last sentence.

Feel free to list 15 GMs he's better than.

Teams with a better GM than what we have with Tallon.
Anaheim
Boston
Chicago
Columbus
Dallas
Los Angeles
Minnesota
Nashville
New Jersey
New York Rangers
Ottawa
Philly
Pittsburgh
San Jose
St. Louis
Tampa
Toronto
Vegas
Washington
Winnipeg

That's 20! Which puts Tallon in the 20-25 range at best, imo.

Starts to get debatable around Islanders, Calgary, Detroit (Detroit may be in a transition period), Arizona (too early to judge but Tallon is better)

He's def better than Vancouver, Montreal, Edmonton, and Buffalo.

I left out Carolina.

And no, incorrect. He wasn't even GM for the 2017-2018 season, how could he be rebuilding for 8? And after the 2015-2016 season when he was right on time with his 5 year rebuilding plan, no one (except people who actually just hate Tallon just because...) was saying he was that low in the rankings of GMs. And all this other stuff you just throw at the wall as fact, is of course mostly just your hate for Tallon that's been there since day one. "gifted a great core through the draft", lol.
This isn't even about the team, the team could suck you'd be fine with it. "But we're headed in the right direction". As long as it's some new aged crap and it's not "old school" we could coast with that forever and not go anywhere, everything would be hunky dory. "as long as it ain't Tallon..."

 

[RainingRats]

And no, incorrect. He wasn't even GM for the 2017-2018 season, how could he be rebuilding for 8? And after the 2015-2016 season when he was right on time with his 5 year rebuilding plan, no one (except people who actually just hate Tallon just because...) was saying he was that low in the rankings of GMs. And all this other stuff you just throw at the wall as fact, is of course mostly just your hate for Tallon that's been there since day one. "gifted a great core through the draft", lol.
This isn't even about the team, the team could suck you'd be fine with it. "But we're headed in the right direction". As long as it's some new aged crap and it's not "old school" we could coast with that forever and not go anywhere, everything would be hunky dory. "as long as it ain't Tallon..."

He's been rebuilding. The one year he wasn't in control the team got some great pieces for him, kept the core intact. This is something we've discussed at great lengths and some people will never accept it, ever. Unless you're going to say we need Gudbranson and Kulikov or Howden, Shaw, and Grimaldi .

Sorry he's an idiot and gave away two key players that led a top team in the league and now are in the second round of the playoffs. One of the worst moves of the decade was Tallon's expansion draft. Indefensible. We'd be in the playoffs right now, 100% if he didn't screw that up.

He was gifted a great core through the draft. He had the #2, #3, #1 picks. That is most of our core. A #1LW, #1C, and top pairing D with #1 potential if he can improve skating. Not sure how draft position doesn't matter.

Don't understand what you're saying in bold. Are you saying I would only be happy if we are not using outdated strategies and methodologies for building a team? Saying "new aged crap" makes you sound very ignorant towards the inevitable evolution of hockey.

 

[patthebat]

For all of us arm-chair GM's.
Don’t blame expansion draft rules for Vegas’ success, blame your GM

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

He's been rebuilding. The one year he wasn't in control the team got some great pieces for him, kept the core intact. This is something we've discussed at great lengths and some people will never accept it, ever. Unless you're going to say we need Gudbranson and Kulikov or Howden, Shaw, and Grimaldi .

Sorry he's an idiot and gave away two key players that led a top team in the league and now are in the second round of the playoffs. One of the worst moves of the decade was Tallon's expansion draft. Indefensible. We'd be in the playoffs right now, 100% if he didn't screw that up.

He was gifted a great core through the draft. He had the #2, #3, #1 picks. That is most of our core. A #1LW, #1C, and top pairing D with #1 potential if he can improve skating. Not sure how draft position doesn't matter.

Don't understand what you're saying in bold. Are you saying I would only be happy if we are not using outdated strategies and methodologies for building a team? Saying "new aged crap" makes you sound very ignorant towards the inevitable evolution of hockey.

Yeah, you just regurgitated a whole bunch of stuff that's incorrect and directed at Tallon and Tallon only, as usual. The Oilers drafted 4 #1s overall and where did that get them? Buffalo drafted second overall twice in a row and where did that get them? Arizona had the #3 pick in the 2015 draft and drafted Strome when they could have had Marner. The point is, drafting high means jack squat. Huberdeau was not a shoe in selection where he was picked, a lot of people had Larsson going in that spot. The Ekblad pick could have been traded, Barkov was not a consensus #2 pick. Somehow though, Tallon doesn't get credit because you know...Tallon.
The two players that "lead" Vegas, when they were here where did they lead us? The point is there is not a 100% guarantee of anything.
He's been rebuilding for 8 years? So you're saying he would have been responsible if the team had succeeded 2016-2017?
Unless they change the basics of hockey like a puck on the ice with skates, the same basic physical principles apply. Evolution of hockey is not a thing.
And the fact that you're calling him an idiot just shows this is about your personal issues and nothing to do with this team and what's best for it.

 

[RainingRats]

Yeah, you just regurgitated a whole bunch of stuff that's incorrect and directed at Tallon and Tallon only, as usual. The Oilers drafted 4 #1s overall and where did that get them? Buffalo drafted second overall twice in a row and where did that get them? Arizona had the #3 pick in the 2015 draft and drafted Strome when they could have had Marner. The point is, drafting high means jack squat. Huberdeau was not a shoe in selection where he was picked, a lot of people had Larsson going in that spot. The Ekblad pick could have been traded, Barkov was not a consensus #2 pick. Somehow though, Tallon doesn't get credit because you know...Tallon.
The two players that "lead" Vegas, when they were here where did they lead us? The point is there is not a 100% guarantee of anything.
He's been rebuilding for 8 years? So you're saying he would have been responsible if the team had succeeded 2016-2017?
Unless they change the basics of hockey like a puck on the ice with skates, the same basic physical principles apply. Evolution of hockey is not a thing.
And the fact that you're calling him an idiot just shows this is about your personal issues and nothing to do with this team and what's best for it.

Everything I said was correct.

Would you rather draft at the top of the draft or the bottom of the draft? We all know who was responsible for the Barkov pick. Huberdeau was definitely going top 5. Oh, what a risky pick!

Comparing Tallon to the worst of the worst GMs doesn't help your argument. Especially since I already said Tallon was better than them. I was relating the core of this team to being where they were picked, not the team overall. Try to keep up.

Smith was leading playoff scorer, one of top forwards in our Division year. March lead the team in goals despite bouncing around the lineup. Rowe had Smith in his doghouse. Rowe was a bad coach. If both got the same minutes they do in Vegas they would have produced more. That's not the point though. Funny you defend the indefensible. We're in a playoff spot if Tallon doesn't screw up the expansion draft.

LOL, not a guarantee is such a weak out. Yet you're so sure things would have been better if Tallon wasn't removed for a season.

If he's not an idiot for the expansion draft, what is he?

 

[letsgrowcactus]

We've established that we're not firing Tallon. Hurray. Now can we close this thread now before it gets out of control again?

 

[SimbaThePanther]

He's been rebuilding for 8 years now. Was gifted a great core through the draft and the computer boys locked them up at a great rate.

I'm sorry? Isn't that kind of the point of a rebuild? That you get to draft high and you pick players to become your core pieces? Are you saying he shouldn't be picking Barkov, Huberdeau, Ekblad...but rather go the hard route and pick longshots and hope for the best? He had them in the playoffs, got kicked out and turmoil behind the scenes all season last year. They nearly got back in again this year and I'd be shocked if they missed out next year. He has done a fine job, even if he isn't faultless.