Winnipeg media == Shills for TNSE?

[wpgsilver]

[mod]

Winnipeg media is no different than any other Canadian market from what I've seen in the past three years, except maybe the first 6 months after the Jets returned.

Not really. Go look at Edmonton if you think our media is bad. They still tow the party line over there and they have been rock bottom for over 5 years. Same in Ottawa.

Okay so you are speaking to Edmonton and Ottawa.
Like I said previously, Toronto and Montreal are both Canadian cities and their media is nothing like Winnipegs.

Winnipeg may be like some Canadian cities, but its not like "any other". Not sure why thats complicated?

 

[surixon]

Okay so you are speaking to Edmonton and Ottawa.
Like I said previously, Toronto and Montreal are both Canadian cities and their media is nothing like Winnipegs.

Winnipeg may be like some Canadian cities, but its not like "any other". Not sure why thats complicated?

My point is that your roasting our media for the same things the fans of a number of Canadian teams roast theirs for.

Am I happy with our media in general? No but I don't expect it to be much different because that's the way it is elsewhere.

Really this whole Pavs thing has taken a mind of its own around here and it seems everything is doom and gloom all throifht the org because of it.

We have controlling incompetent owners and management a terrible media etc... A coach that apparently doesn't know how to evaluate young goalies due to the Rask trade. All because of one answer in the end of the year press conference. I guess everyone just likes to focus on the bad and not the good. I wonder what will be said if pavs is gone in a month or two.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

.......

I haven't quite discovered a Winnipeg Cox or Simmons yet....

You forgot about Friesen.

 

[Derfel*]

Okay so you are speaking to Edmonton and Ottawa.
Like I said previously, Toronto and Montreal are both Canadian cities and their media is nothing like Winnipegs.

Winnipeg may be like some Canadian cities, but its not like "any other". Not sure why thats complicated?

Toronto isn't a Canadian market - it's THE Canadian market, according to Toronto.

 

[garret9]

You forgot about Friesen.

Friesen doesn't talk to me... so I can't judge him much.

 

[arby18]

You forgot about Friesen.

Friesen's the only guy who's been willing to even dare uttering an ill-word about our do-nothing GM, which I applaud. He may be unpopular for writing it, but he's not wrong.

I'd love to hear from him more often just so that the conversations about the Jets can be a two-way street.

 

[knorthern knight]

Yesterday's presser took place in the Winnipeg Free Press Cafe and was simulcast on TSN 1290. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, I guess.

arby18
#whatdidchevydotoday

Maybe change that hashtag to #haschevyboughtoutpavsyet

 

[Blue Shakehead]

Well, TNSE is in partnership with the Freep and TSN. So maybe it's not a total conspiracy theory to wonder if Lawless, Beyak, Rick Ralph et all are carrying TNSE's water.

http://jets.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=590350

 

[Hollywood3]

Most media types go along to get along. That way people think "he's a good guy" and it makes it easy to get your next job. It gets you invites and makes you popular. One could be a black sheep but that is tough, especially in sports. And especially in radio. Nice guys get more guests.

 

[arbf412]

I don't think this is very complicated. If your job used to be covering minor league hockey, and suddenly, thanks to Mark Chipman, you're now covering the NHL, it's hard not to be a fan of the man and his team. I know for a fact that there are people who cheer in the press box. This is pretty much the 1st commandment of sportswriting.

 

[TheDeuce]

For those saying "their job is to report the news" that's not exactly true. If it were so we'd essentially only get the scores and mention of player transactions.

Their job also includes analysis.

Some here are just saying that the analysis throughout Winnipeg media is all one voice, due to only taking from one perspective. The OP then pushed it further by trying to give a reaon why that is.

I don't think it is one voice but I would say the variation in WPG media for Jets is quite small, but growing bigger. IMO, I don't really want them to use much, if any, "advanced statistics"... That's a niche market. But, it would be nice if they were more well rounded in their overall analysis.

It's not just a goaltending thing... The Stuart's, Thorburn's, Pavelec's, Jokinen's, etc. never shoulder much if any blame from the media.

I'll add another element. Part of their job is investigation.

Five 'w's. Who, what, where, when, and WHY? It's the last item that gets short shrift from our local media. If Ondrej is anointed #1 despite his league-lagging performance and demonstrable failings it is incumbent on the free and unhindered media to ask the hard questions. To do some investigating. To find out 'why?'.

If the mainstream media is unwilling or unable to do that very important element of their job then the papers may as well just run press releases from whatever organization sends them out, be it the government, random businesses, or True North. But I feel that, given the commitment the community has given to True North, we are entitled to more than the dry cleaned, TN approved tripe that comes out of Scott Brown's office.

Continuing to use Ondrej Pavelec as the #1 goaltender is a decision that appears to be detrimental to the community that has invested a hell of a lot in the Jets. If there's a rational reason for doing so we would all be pleased to hear it. It's incumbent on the media to investigate the reason something apparently bad is being done to us. If they're unwilling to do it then their news organizations can simply close down their Jets coverage and we can all go to jets.nhl.com for our Jets news.



m.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Some of them are starting to see the light? Or are they?

@randyturner15: At office looking at page layout for @WFPEdTait's BIG feature in Sat Freep on hockey/sports analytics. Fancy stat boys should be salivating.

 

[CorgisPer60]

Some of them are starting to see the light? Or are they?

@randyturner15: At office looking at page layout for @WFPEdTait's BIG feature in Sat Freep on hockey/sports analytics. Fancy stat boys should be salivating.

Considering how often Garret has been on H&L, and not to be derisively sneered at, this doesn't come as a shock.

 

[garret9]

I haven't seen it, but I've heard it tries to fairly represent both sides of pro- and anti-stats.

 

[Aavco Cup]

I haven't seen it, but I've heard it tries to fairly represent both sides of pro- and anti-stats.

Hey Garret. The NJ Devils are hiring.

"The New Jersey Devils are looking for someone with the passion, intelligence and experience to lead its hockey analytics group. The position reports directly to the President and General Manager, Lou Lamoriello. Interested applicants should have a deep understanding of both hockey and advanced data-centric techniques to analyze games, players, and rosters. Experience on/around the ice is a plus while a deep passion for NHL hockey is required. Experience in statistics, data science, econometrics, computer science, or other data-driven fields is a must. The position will office in the Prudential Center in Newark."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/The-art-of-analytics-255503041.html

Pretty decent article. Not too statistcy (sp?) More of how pro teams are slowly buying in. Not much anti statistic, just that it's only a tool. Eyeballs still required.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

What kills me about the "eyeballs still required" commentary: how do these guys think the stats are gathered? It's gathered via people watching the games, typically multiple times. It's not a replacement - it's a complementary tool to further understanding of holes in teams rosters/games, and to help predict future success by measuring things that typically lead to success.

The other thing that I don't understand about the media narrative: advanced stats really aren't rocket science, if you're talking strictly Corsi/Fenwick. I don't understand what's considered advanced, when it's really just a matter of measuring who directs more shots on net when they're on the ice.

The application and analysis of those stats might be advanced, but CF and FF shouldn't be much more difficult to understand than +/-. In fact, given that +/- is such a poor predictor, it should be an easier stat to get your head around.

/rant

 

[Jet]

I think one of the most disgusting things that has really come to surface during this season in general and the last few days in particular is how much the Winnipeg media is in the pockets of TNSE. It just sickens me to see to such blatant and cynical shillage going on with very few people even raising an eyebrow. The Winnipeg media seems to drink TNSE's bath water. Have you heard any of the big guys in the media criticize the management? I look at how confrontational the media is in Montreal or NY and and am totally ashamed of the complete sellouts we have in Winnipeg. I feel like I am realizing how it must have been to live in the Soviet Union and watch the state controlled media spew out propaganda and bow down to their overlords. I find it insulting to the intelligence of the fan base that they do stuff like have a long interview with the GM and not even touch on burning topic of the day. It's like these guys are pi$$ing on us and then telling us it's raining. There are certain folks associated with the team for whom the media will go any length to defend. It's clear that the media has a directive from TNSE to be Pavelec apologists and prop him up. I mean has anyone here ever heard Beyak say even one negative word about Pavelec? And there are other guys on the team whom the media openly attacks (Buff, Kane, Burmi, Seto), these guys are not in the long term plans of TNSE so presumably they've given the media an open licence to criticize them as they might. If you notice the media always defended Noel until like around 4 days before his dismissal when he suddenly became the devil.

I am disgusted and grossed out by their behavior.

It sucks that it is this way but you are TOTALLY overreacting with the disgusted and grossed out line.

What would you have them do?

If they don't tow the line with TNSE or the NHL, they don't get interviews, scoops, and access.

So, you either write fluff and what will stand up to the sniff test of the powers that be or you end up writing stuff that is all based on rumor and supposition because you have no legitimate vetted sources.

Pick your poison. Crucifying these guys when you haven't walked in their shoes though, is really unfair. I wouldn't say 'disgusting' , but it's really easy to criticize when you don't take into account this pays these guys mortgages, feeds their children, etc. etc.

 

[Jet]

I interact a lot with the media and can say that I'm "the other guy".

I think many of them are "homers" not because they are in TNSE pockets, but because they are homers.

I've noticed quite a few are also open to learn to look at things from different angles:

Westwood tends to be fixed in his opinions, whether they are homer or not. He is open to numbers, especially if they validate his opinion.

Mitch Peacock has asked me to send him stuff on analytics and is trying to learn. It should also be noted that he was quick to forgive when I was actually an ass when we first argued over twitter.

Ed Tait followed me quite early but never really has discussed much with me. I do know he talks to Truck though quite a bit.

Hustler and Lawless we know have had me on their show before, and are hoping to keep me as a semi-regular guest. Lawless doesn't always agree with the alternative view but he understands that an alternative voice makes for a better show and covers more niches.

Patrick Williams is a guy I love talking hockey with. He is most likely the least homer Jets media member out there. He respects numbers even if he doesn't always agree but if he believes the numbers to be powerful enough argument he is also open to being persuaded.

Bauming is a champ. I can be a dick and for no reason other than being a good person will help me argue with media members without being as "brash".

Mellisa Martin has long been friends with AIH and even looks over this board to get more thoughts.

RR and Waz are tougher cookies to read. RR will say something that makes his opinion seem one way, but then will usually say in jest if you question him on it (like recent AIH comment).

Billeck likes to play devils advocate with numbers but seems nice.

Wiebe used to talk to me all the time but that has dried up.

Toth... Well he says he doesn't dislike numbers, but I have yet to see him agree with them or think twice. I don't expect or want anyone to think from the numbers... However, I do think they are a tool that should be used. When your opinion conflicts you should think "why that is" rather than just dismiss (either) as wrong.

That's most of the guys I interact with in media.
Thought I'd add my experiences since I interact with these guys a lot. I know the discussion is more about looking at another perspective beyond the homer look, but this is the perspective I present to these guys so it's only one I can really speak well about.

I haven't quite discovered a Winnipeg Cox or Simmons yet....

There is a whole different pressure working for a mainstream media outlet. You have bosses, responsibilities, and relationships. For instance: when I was working for Bell in Winnipeg I was asked not to talk about certain things and I was reprimanded a couple of times because what I was discussing or something I said was deemed to be harmful to business relationships. It shocked the hell out of me because I have never encountered that in my career before.

Most of these guys work for big corporations and have many, many levels of hierarchy, bureaucracy, and controlling policies that affect their day to day business.

If you are making 80K a year to cover a hockey team and you know you will be fired for ruffling feathers, you aren't going to.

I am not saying it's right or it's wrong, but if these guys do 'step out of line', the corporation has 100 other people willing to step in and tow the line.

So, when people criticize the actual media person, remember, there is a much larger scenario at play.

Also, it is the same everywhere. Much larger markets have guys in msm who 'speak out' but that is their shtick, and 9 times out of 10 the company they work for lost out on the league sponsorship sweepstakes (be it NHL, NBA, MLB, whatever).

 

[Jet]

What kills me about the "eyeballs still required" commentary: how do these guys think the stats are gathered? It's gathered via people watching the games, typically multiple times. It's not a replacement - it's a complementary tool to further understanding of holes in teams rosters/games, and to help predict future success by measuring things that typically lead to success.

The other thing that I don't understand about the media narrative: advanced stats really aren't rocket science, if you're talking strictly Corsi/Fenwick. I don't understand what's considered advanced, when it's really just a matter of measuring who directs more shots on net when they're on the ice.

The application and analysis of those stats might be advanced, but CF and FF shouldn't be much more difficult to understand than +/-. In fact, given that +/- is such a poor predictor, it should be an easier stat to get your head around.

/rant

All of this stuff really annoys me, and it's another component of the lack of realistic reporting of sports (especially in Winnipeg). Outside of the whole corporate dynamic is that a lot of these guys still don't understand stats and how to interpret them or their importance. Kind of like the pre- Moneyball era.

I think this issue is independent of the other one I was discussing, which was more about interviewing, fluff questions and articles. I have had more than one Twitter battle with Toth over Pavelec and stats and eyeballs

 

[Grind]

All of this stuff really annoys me, and it's another component of the lack of realistic reporting of sports (especially in Winnipeg). Outside of the whole corporate dynamic is that a lot of these guys still don't understand stats and how to interpret them or their importance. Kind of like the pre- Moneyball era.

I think this issue is independent of the other one I was discussing, which was more about interviewing, fluff questions and articles. I have had more than one Twitter battle with Toth over Pavelec and stats and eyeballs

oh haven't we all....

 

[Analyst365]

I understand the angst towards Pavelec, but I would like to offer that it isn't just the media's job to execute which hunts over our poorly performing players.

They cover our NHL team for all of the fans and sometimes that means covering fun, nice, things and providing enjoyment.

 

[Grind]

I understand the angst towards Pavelec, but I would like to offer that it isn't just the media's job to execute which hunts over our poorly performing players.

They cover our NHL team for all of the fans and sometimes that means covering fun, nice, things and providing enjoyment.

I think the concern is the percentage. we get 99% "fun and fluff". Now, that would be fine if there weren't legitimate player issues on the ice, but htere are.

Are gm has made mistakes (all do) and we have players that simply aren't good enough. A team thats underperforming, but we don't get any insight into that. Know one asks "why is this happening" in an educated/meaningfull way.

I'm not asking every media outlet to do that, but it would be nice if we had one or two that would call a shovel a bloody shovel rather then focusing on off ice antics and esoteric "heart"

 

[BigZ65]

What kills me about the "eyeballs still required" commentary: how do these guys think the stats are gathered? It's gathered via people watching the games, typically multiple times. It's not a replacement - it's a complementary tool to further understanding of holes in teams rosters/games, and to help predict future success by measuring things that typically lead to success.

I think you're reading too much into the comment. What Burke and Cheveldayoff both essentially are saying IMO is that it is not at the point where you can evaluate players solely on a spreadsheet like baseball, partially because who is collecting the stats is a much larger variable (granted there's some of that in baseball with error vs hit and stuff like that, but not as much). They need to use their own "eyeballs" as an evaluative tool as well, potentially to collect their own stats in video work, which I assume every team is doing.

 

[JetsFan815]

The media doesn't cater to us; they cater to the majority for the most part. So expect the majority of stories to be soft. There's the occasional 'harder' story, but they're relatively rare. Again as another poster said, the critical thinking is trickling out. I will never expect the media to have hardass discussions or finger-pointing like we do here though.

They're not shills. They're just soft (and not much different from other markets IMHO).

So essentialy what you are saying is the media is telling people what they want to hear instead of the truth they need to hear. And how is that okay? They even make a joke about this in Anchorman 2

 

[Hollywood3]

So essentialy what you are saying is the media is telling people what they want to hear instead of the truth they need to hear. And how is that okay? They even make a joke about this in Anchorman 2

The Jets are building a cup contender under the iron will of The Leader, Kim Il Chevy, and assistant Pol Mo Un.