Winnipeg girls win right to play on boys' hockey team

[Slats432]

http://www.winnipegsun.com/News/Manitoba/2006/09/26/1899628-sun.html



not sure whether or not this has been posted yet...

And obviously those who want their cake and eat it too are mortified.

 

[bottleCAPS]

"Independent adjudicator M. Lynn Harrison ruled last Friday the MHSAA was guilty of gender discrimination when it denied Amy and Jesse Pasternak an opportunity to try out for the boys' hockey team at West Kildonan Collegiate."

 

[Ti-girl]

Ti you do realize that when you ditch the girls teams for the boys team you are doing two things.

1 - You are being selfish. You've put your own needs ahead of the teams and the game itself. You'd rather leave then stay and help develop the woman's program.

2 - You are lessoning the quality of those girls teams.

If every talented girl played on the boys teams. The girls teams would be a joke and it may discourage other girls from playing that sport. It may even lead to bigger problems where the school or town decides a girls program is not longer needed since the more talented girls are playing for the boys team. Several posters here have hit on that. Would you have wanted to play boys baseball if there were three or four other girls of your skill level on each of the girls teams...I am guessing no.

I look at Michelle Wie. Instead of competing in the LPGA she's focused on the PGA tour. The things she could do for woman's golf by concentrating on the LPGA and winning titles there would be greater then the exposure she'd get playing on the PGA and finishing at the bottom of the bracket.

If woman want woman's sports to be taken seriously. They need to keep the most talented woman in that sport. The woman playing those sports have to realize that and keep in mind that leaving to play with the boys will only hurt the future of woman's sports.

How did I put my needs in front of that of the team? We would go to tournaments, lose every game by about 10 runs and I would still get the MVP. Isn't it better for a team when they can all learn at the same speed and level and not have someone who is heads above them? That way they don't feel like they need to match up to the best player on the team.

I'm sure you're also going to think that it was selfish of me to go to another province to train for 4 years and leave my home province. What is someone supposed to do when the position they are in no longer allows them to improve as an athlete? Just be happy with what they have?

Let's take a look here in Calgary. A new NWHL team was started in Strathmore. Isn't it selfish of them to start a team JUST for a good players? Just for the players who can play at that high level? There ARE other teams for them to play on. They're being selfish and they're lessening the quality of all of the other teams in and around Calgary.

 

[stick9]

http://www.winnipegsun.com/News/Manitoba/2006/09/26/1899628-sun.html



not sure whether or not this has been posted yet...

From the above article.

If they don't make the boys' team they won't play on the girls' team, even though they have that option.

IMO they don't seem to concerned with playing hockey at any level other then with the boys team. So, I tend to doubt this is all about the level of the competition.

Take a look at the two girls. If they were your daughters would you want them playing on the boys high school hockey team? Amy is a very attractive girl. Something I am sure won't go unnoticed by her male counterparts.

 

[stick9]

How did I put my needs in front of that of the team? We would go to tournaments, lose every game by about 10 runs and I would still get the MVP. Isn't it better for a team when they can all learn at the same speed and level and not have someone who is heads above them? That way they don't feel like they need to match up to the best player on the team.

I'm sure you're also going to think that it was selfish of me to go to another province to train for 4 years and leave my home province. What is someone supposed to do when the position they are in no longer allows them to improve as an athlete? Just be happy with what they have?

Let's take a look here in Calgary. A new NWHL team was started in Strathmore. Isn't it selfish of them to start a team JUST for a good players? Just for the players who can play at that high level? There ARE other teams for them to play on. They're being selfish and they're lessening the quality of all of the other teams in and around Calgary.

Ti I think you missed my point a little. The best thing for the team would be for you to play on the girls team and help raise the level of play of that program.

No it's not selfish to train away from home and no it's not selfish for you to tryout for the WNHL team. Selfish would be NOT trying out for the WNHL and focusing on the NHL.

BTW, good luck on your tryout.

 

[Ti-girl]

What does it matter if the girls are good looking?

If a girl wants to play on a guys's team she should expect to take some **** from the guys. Its part of being on the team.

I got razzed more from the guys on the other team than I did with the guys from MY team.

One time I remember the coach from the other team going all of a sudden "Ha! Their catcher is a GIRL!" and his team started snickering and laughing. That was all fine, whatever, you learn to take it. A few of their guys would come up to bat and start yapping. A lot of "Hey goldie locks, whatcha doing after the game?" that kind of stuff.
When I would throw them out stealing they would shut up really quickly. So did their coach.

 

[Gino 14]

I can see no issue with the boys playing on the girl's team as long as they limit the numbers of males on a female sport. The same could be put in place for girls on a boys team. If limits weren't put on the numbers, the possibility exists to have two teams at a school, the boys and "girls" teams, that could end up being all male. That would lend itself to even more legal issues.

 

[Seph]

IMO they don't seem to concerned with playing hockey at any level other then with the boys team. So, I tend to doubt this is all about the level of the competition.

It might be that is simply no fun when there isn't a challenge. Ever play hockey with a your little brother and his friends who are all much younger/worse. Sure, it's fun for a game or two, but you'd quickly lose interest if you had to do it over a schedule of league games. Especially when you still have to go through all the monotony of practices and the like, but weren't going to get any better.

 

[Ti-girl]

It might be that is simply no fun when there isn't a challenge. Ever play hockey with a your little brother and his friends who are all much younger/worse. Sure, it's fun for a game or two, but you'd quickly lose interest if you had to do it over a schedule of league games. Especially when you still have to go through all the monotony of practices and the like, but weren't going to get any better.

The girls on my team right now ask me why I play better when we play against mens teams. The answer is simple. They're better and I bring my level of play up to theirs.

People should strive to be the best, if that means playing with the boys than so be it.

 

[Sammy*]

The girls on my team right now ask me why I play better when we play against mens teams. The answer is simple. They're better and I bring my level of play up to theirs.

People should strive to be the best, if that means playing with the boys than so be it.

Unfortunatly for some boys, their best isnt good enough & they therefore should get to play for the girls team where they can try & be the best they can be.

 

[Le Golie]

The worst part about this is that these girls aren't that good. They would be 'good' in the girls league, but they wouldn't stand out. There is no way they are good enough to play high school hockey. If they make the team it will be because the coach fears another discrimination suit.

They've completely alienated themselves from girls hockey, they are not good enough for boys hockey, so they won't play at all anymore and now boys are going to play on girls teams.... That's going to be the end result in all of this. I guess it makes them happy.

 

[MuzikMachine]

So is Sydney Crosby selfish for leaving the Q for the NHL? Is Ovechkin selfish for leaving the RSL for the NHL? People move on from leagues because they are too good for it and need a higher level of competition, why are we focusing on these two as being selfish?

So if the girls High School team is a "joke", why not move to another High School? I have a feeling that these two girls aren't prodigies who are light years ahead of every other female hockey player in Winnipeg that there isn't a girls team worthy of their presence. Even if they are, they might have to leave home just like the boys do when they go to higher leagues.

A comparison would be high school football. There are teams (or schools) were players are just learning the sport, and there are other more competitve school teams that are suitable for more experianced, skilled players who could pursue junior, university, or even professional careers.

 

[stick9]

It might be that is simply no fun when there isn't a challenge. Ever play hockey with a your little brother and his friends who are all much younger/worse. Sure, it's fun for a game or two, but you'd quickly lose interest if you had to do it over a schedule of league games. Especially when you still have to go through all the monotony of practices and the like, but weren't going to get any better.

Ever play on a team where you were an outsider, or where you're the worst player on the team? Or play with your older brothers? That's no fun either. I'm the youngest of six boys. I know what it's like to be on the other end of that.

Sorry, I just think it would be better for them to play on the girls team. It would help raise the level of play. It's never a bad thing having a couple of players who are head and shoulders better then everyone else. Good players make those around them better.

Serious question here. What would happen if only one of them made it? I'm surprised it hasn't come up in one of the articles.

FWIW there are a few girls who show up to a pick up skate I go to. I have no problem with that all. They are really nice and are pretty good too.

 

[Ti-girl]

Unfortunatly for some boys, their best isnt good enough & they therefore should get to play for the girls team where they can try & be the best they can be.

Okay, so lets start allowing 22 and 23 year olds to play Junior hockey. They can't be the best they can be at the AHL or even ECHL level, so lets let them play against kids.

 

[Ti-girl]

Sorry, I just think it would be better for them to play on the girls team. It would help raise the level of play. It's never a bad thing having a couple of players who are head and shoulders better then everyone else. Good players make those around them better.

I understand what you're trying to get at, but at the same point I know what it feels like to be the best player on a team. It can suck. The pressure put on by teammates, coaches and other parents is immense. It isn't fun.
You have to do everything, everyone turns to you, if you lose the game it's your fault because you're the "best player" on the team.

 

[Seph]

Ever play on a team where you were an outsider, or where you're the worst player on the team? Or play with your older brothers? That's no fun either. I'm the youngest of six boys. I know what it's like to be on the other end of that.

Sorry, I just think it would be better for them to play on the girls team. It would help raise the level of play. It's never a bad thing having a couple of players who are head and shoulders better then everyone else. Good players make those around them better.

Serious question here. What would happen if only one of them made it? I'm surprised it hasn't come up in one of the articles.

FWIW there are a few girls who show up to a pick up skate I go to. I have no problem with that all. They are really nice and are pretty good too.

I have, actually. I got better at a faster rate, and was eventually accepted by the others on my own merits.

So if the girls High School team is a "joke", why not move to another High School? I have a feeling that these two girls aren't prodigies who are light years ahead of every other female hockey player in Winnipeg that there isn't a girls team worthy of their presence. Even if they are, they might have to leave home just like the boys do when they go to higher leagues.

A comparison would be high school football. There are teams (or schools) were players are just learning the sport, and there are other more competitve school teams that are suitable for more experianced, skilled players who could pursue junior, university, or even professional careers.

Not everyone can just up and move. For one, it's expensive to move and often moving to a different city makes it difficult for your parents, family, etc. On top of that, there is nowhere near the potential payoff, as women's hockey isn't exactly a high paying career goal, whereas men's football can be. But moreover, the problem is that there's a perfectly good team right there for them to play on that would suit what they are looking for.

Frankly, I don't care two twits about these girls. The mere fact that they sought a monetary compensation for this makes their intentions questionable, at best. I just think that some of the arguments given in this thread are just as questionable.

 

[Seph]

Unfortunatly for some boys, their best isnt good enough & they therefore should get to play for the girls team where they can try & be the best they can be.

OK, let me explain it this way. What is the point of splitting the genders into different leagues/teams? Is it because they simply must be separated purely for non-specified gender reasons? If so, that is sexist, but I don't think that's it. They are separated because there is a clear difference in athletic ability and potential between the two genders. Generally speaking men who aren't that good can dominate women who are. The purpose of splitting them up is so that women still have an arena to compete in which remains on their level. If you start letting men in, you risk ruining that level and then driving women out of high school sports.

However, sometimes women are good enough that they can compete with the men. If they can, it's easy to measure, they're simply good enough. However, there is no accurate fair way to judge the opposite, if a man is bad enough to play on an even level with the girls. It's easy to play below your true abilities at a tryout. Moreover, competition is about rewarding those who are the best and who earn it through hard work and ability. Rewarding a guy for lacking those traits with more playing time defeats that notion.

All that said, it would be nice to see if the schools could set up proper co-ed rules for the sports they only have women's teams for, so that both genders can play without turning it into another men's team. Or perhaps even co-ed rules so that people of all genders could compete and enjoy in all sports.

 

[Nbr-17]

I have competed at a very high level of competition and there are reasons why they do not allow boys to play in girls leagues.

At my peak performance I was 5'9, 160 lbs and a body fat percentage just under 10% (9.82).

Did I ever beat a guy in my age category? Sure. Could I ever beat the best? No. Even when I won Nationals my time was still well behind the winner of the men's.

It would be like allowing 15 and 16 year olds who are cut from their teams to play on a 12 and 13 year old team. The muscle mass is compelety different. It becomes a saftey issue. If a girl plays on a boys team its her problem if she gets hurt.

Well in that case the girls should not be allowed on the boys team either, 'cause that also would be a saftey issue. How can that become 'her problem' ?

Maybe hockey teams should be divided by weight classes just like any fighting sport.

 

[Sammy*]

OK, let me explain it this way. What is the point of splitting the genders into different leagues/teams? Is it because they simply must be separated purely for non-specified gender reasons? If so, that is sexist, but I don't think that's it. They are separated because there is a clear difference in athletic ability and potential between the two genders. Generally speaking men who aren't that good can dominate women who are. The purpose of splitting them up is so that women still have an arena to compete in which remains on their level. If you start letting men in, you risk ruining that level and then driving women out of high school sports.

However, sometimes women are good enough that they can compete with the men. If they can, it's easy to measure, they're simply good enough. However, there is no accurate fair way to judge the opposite, if a man is bad enough to play on an even level with the girls. It's easy to play below your true abilities at a tryout. Moreover, competition is about rewarding those who are the best and who earn it through hard work and ability. Rewarding a guy for lacking those traits with more playing time defeats that notion.

All that said, it would be nice to see if the schools could set up proper co-ed rules for the sports they only have women's teams for, so that both genders can play without turning it into another men's team. Or perhaps even co-ed rules so that people of all genders could compete and enjoy in all sports.

So in other words, you are not in favor of male only league/teams, only merit based leagues/teams, but you are in favor of female only league's/teams?

 

[Sammy*]

Okay, so lets start allowing 22 and 23 year olds to play Junior hockey. They can't be the best they can be at the AHL or even ECHL level, so lets let them play against kids.

So I guess its only the elite girl who should benefit by the hypocrisy, not the average boy who simply wants to be on a swim team but isnt good enough to compete with the boys?

 

[Human Megaphone]

However, sometimes women are good enough that they can compete with the men. If they can, it's easy to measure, they're simply good enough. However, there is no accurate fair way to judge the opposite, if a man is bad enough to play on an even level with the girls. It's easy to play below your true abilities at a tryout. Moreover, competition is about rewarding those who are the best and who earn it through hard work and ability. Rewarding a guy for lacking those traits with more playing time defeats that notion.

All are created equal, some are just more equal than others?

Given that this has moved into the legal realm then it can't be that subjective. They are either allowed or they aren't. If they aren't, however, than how can that be defended based on the fact that women can choose to play in either group? Personally I think the judge made a very improper decision when you look at the grand scheme of things.

Edit: Don't mean to hammer you on this, obviously some other poster's have echoed the same sentiments.

 

[stick9]

OK, let me explain it this way. What is the point of splitting the genders into different leagues/teams? Is it because they simply must be separated purely for non-specified gender reasons? If so, that is sexist, but I don't think that's it. They are separated because there is a clear difference in athletic ability and potential between the two genders. Generally speaking men who aren't that good can dominate women who are. The purpose of splitting them up is so that women still have an arena to compete in which remains on their level. If you start letting men in, you risk ruining that level and then driving women out of high school sports.

However, sometimes women are good enough that they can compete with the men. If they can, it's easy to measure, they're simply good enough. However, there is no accurate fair way to judge the opposite, if a man is bad enough to play on an even level with the girls. It's easy to play below your true abilities at a tryout. Moreover, competition is about rewarding those who are the best and who earn it through hard work and ability. Rewarding a guy for lacking those traits with more playing time defeats that notion.

All that said, it would be nice to see if the schools could set up proper co-ed rules for the sports they only have women's teams for, so that both genders can play without turning it into another men's team. Or perhaps even co-ed rules so that people of all genders could compete and enjoy in all sports.

I don't disagree with any of that. However, once you open the door you have to let it swing both ways. Allowing woman to play on the mens team, but not allowing men to play on the woman's isn't really equal rights. Isn't that what this whole thing is about, equal rights?

 

[Killiecrankie*]

Allowing a girl to play high school hockey on the boys team is a joke, seriously. Just stay in your league and we will stay in ours. We had a girl try and make a team back here, she didnt even come close to making it so she was cut first day. Her mother came over and threatened law suits so the coach told her hed put her in the scrimage and that would prove to her mother she wasnt good enough. First period she gets crushed carrying the puck up the center of the ice with her head down(dumb, dumb dumb) and gets a concusion and sprains her wrist. And her jaggoff mom got mad again. Needless to say i dont have a good opinion on super women trying to make guys teams-its just dumb. and of course she was targeted cause everyone knew she sucked, plus guys have a inferiority complex when it comes to sports and girls playing them and they have to test them which is bad too.

 

[Ti-girl]

Allowing a girl to play high school hockey on the boys team is a joke, seriously. Just stay in your league and we will stay in ours. We had a girl try and make a team back here, she didnt even come close to making it so she was cut first day. Her mother came over and threatened law suits so the coach told her hed put her in the scrimage and that would prove to her mother she wasnt good enough. First period she gets crushed carrying the puck up the center of the ice with her head down(dumb, dumb dumb) and gets a concusion and sprains her wrist. And her jaggoff mom got mad again. Needless to say i dont have a good opinion on super women trying to make guys teams-its just dumb. and of course she was targeted cause everyone knew she sucked, plus guys have a inferiority complex when it comes to sports and girls playing them and they have to test them which is bad too.

In that case no, she shouldn't have made the team. But how about in a situation where the girl is clearly at the same skill level or higher than that of the boys?
When I played ball my batting average was still respectable at .390 and I still would bring in 90 some RBIs a season. Should I have been cut?
When I played guys hockey (played up until I was 16 when I had to make a decision) I would get hit on a regular basis. It never bothered me.
My last year I had 26 goals, 19 assists and 52 PIM. No, I wasn't the best on the team, but I was one of the better ones.
My parents never complained if I got hit. The one time I did complain to my dad he told me straight up "Then quit. If you want to play with the boys you better get used to it."

 

[Gino 14]

Allowing a girl to play high school hockey on the boys team is a joke, seriously. Just stay in your league and we will stay in ours. We had a girl try and make a team back here, she didnt even come close to making it so she was cut first day. Her mother came over and threatened law suits so the coach told her hed put her in the scrimage and that would prove to her mother she wasnt good enough. First period she gets crushed carrying the puck up the center of the ice with her head down(dumb, dumb dumb) and gets a concusion and sprains her wrist. And her jaggoff mom got mad again. Needless to say i dont have a good opinion on super women trying to make guys teams-its just dumb. and of course she was targeted cause everyone knew she sucked, plus guys have a inferiority complex when it comes to sports and girls playing them and they have to test them which is bad too.

No one stated that the girls had to play on the team, only that they be given the same chance to try out as any other player. If the talent is there, she makes the team, if not, she's cut. Doesn't get much fairer than that.