GDT: Wings @ Hawks 5pm NBC sports chicago (Chelios jersey retirement night)

[WarriorofTime]

We are arguing that a defenseman in the NHL, making $9.5M a season, can't pass through lanes that most high level beer league players can pass through... This entire discussion is absurd.

You got that right, if you think "high level beer league players" (AA/AAA and/or ACHA washouts) are completing that pass at high-level NHL speed, then please give your head a shake. How many points do you think Seth Jones would have if he showed up to your rink for a random game and went, idk, even like 65 % effort?

 

[ChiHawks10]

You got that right, if you think "high level beer league players" (AA/AAA and/or ACHA washouts) are completing that pass at high-level NHL speed, then please give your head a shake. How many points do you think Seth Jones would have if he showed up to your rink for a random game and went, idk, even like 65 % effort?

Many high level "beer leaguers" in the leagues that he plays in are ECHL, USHL, AHL, and D1 or D2 or D3 college players who didn't make it to the NHL. Just so you know. So I mean... most would be able to make that pass.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Many high level "beer leaguers" in the leagues that he plays in are ECHL, USHL, AHL, and D1 or D2 college players who didn't make it to the NHL. Just so you know. So I mean... most would be able to make that pass.

Well if Pez has scouted them, perhaps they are available for a contract, what's a 29 year old former 4th overall pick and 5-time All Star compared to... "D2" college players (there is no NCAA Division II Hockey, fyi) that would definitely complete a pass to Bedard there

 

[ChiHawks10]

Well if Pez has scouted them, perhaps they are available for a contract, what's a 29 year old former 4th overall pick and 5-time All Star compared to... "D2" college players (there is no NCAA Division II Hockey, fyi) that would definitely complete a pass to Bedard there

There have actually been multiple iterations of D2 NCAA hockey over the years, and there are currently schools that categorize themselves as "D2" NCAA hockey, fyi.

Lol, why are you always such a smart ass btw? There's no denying that Jones has primarily been absolutely awful this season. The funniest part about it is that you tried to be all smart ass about it to try and "gotcha" me, when all you did was make yourself look like a total clown.

And I mean... it's a wide open lane to either Kurashev or Bedard in that situation. Literally all SJ has to do his pick his head up and see both of them. Most high level players, in general, would be able to make that pass. I'd argue just about anyone who has ever played travel hockey at any meaningful level could make those passes. He never said that Jones COULDN'T make that pass. As far as I remember reading, he was critical of him never even picking his f***ing head up from staring at the puck to see that he had those options.

You should read better.

 

[WarriorofTime]

There have actually been multiple iterations of D2 NCAA hockey, and there are currently schools that categorize themselves as "D2" NCAA hockey, fyi.

Lol, why are you always such a smart ass btw? There's no denying that Jones has primarily been absolutely awful this season.

We have people legitimately calling one of the only players on the roster that is a real nhl player that could play a real nhl role on good teams worse than “high-level beer leaguers” and then getting incensed at disagreement. I’m not the “smart ass” here.

 

[ChiHawks10]

We have people legitimately calling one of the only players on the roster that is a real nhl player that could play a real nhl role on good teams worse than “high-level beer leaguers” and then getting incensed at disagreement. I’m not the “smart ass” here.

Can you point out where it said that? He was speaking to the claim by someone else that the passing lanes were closed, when it was very much obvious they weren't. I mean, just last week I had a teammate on a C team I play on fire a saucer pass through two defenders, one the legs, one the stick, and land it right to me for a one-timer that I scored on(although a lot of our players on that team are B2 or higher level players). So... I'm not sure what you're honestly arguing here. Again, most people who played the game at any level of travel hockey for their life could make those passes. Jones just simply needed to pick his head up and look at his options.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I mean, just last week I had a teammate on a C team I play on fire a saucer pass through two defenders, one the legs, one the stick, and land it right to me for a one-timer that I scored on.

Do you honestly think he would have been able to make the same pass through NHL defenders at a game played at NHL speed? Do you not believe a player like Jones who had 42 assists in 61 WHL games, undoubtedly a higher level of play than your men’s league games, would not have been able to look up, and make the same pass as your teammate made the other night in men’s league in that situation?

 

[ChiHawks10]

Do you honestly think he would have been able to make the same pass through NHL defenders at a game played at NHL speed? Do you not believe a player like Jones who had 42 assists in 61 WHL games, undoubtedly a higher level of play than your men’s league games, would not have been able to look up, and make the same pass as your teammate made the other night in men’s league in that situation?

No, I don't. But the talent/skill level of the league is all relative... NHL players can make those plays at NHL speeds. College players can make those plays at College speeds...

Do you just not read, or what? No one was ever saying that Seth Jones did not have the ability to make the passes... The criticism has come from him never picking his f***ing head up to see the open options he had, because if he had, he would have made either pass and the Hawks would have won... Like what in the actual f***?

The debate is about the passing lanes being closed, and that's why Jones didn't make the passes. When that's bullshit. He didn't make the passes(and yes, we know he CAN make those), because he never picked his f***ing head up to look.

It's like you're playing f***ing dumb because you got called out for saying dumb shit and regret it.

 

[WarriorofTime]

No, I don't. But the talent/skill level of the league is all relative... NHL players can make those plays at NHL speeds. College players can make those plays at College speeds...

Nothing occurs in a vacuum. I don’t think that’s a crazy point. All I’m saying is let’s not use hyperbole that compares nhl players to beer leaguers and gaslight people that think to the contrary. I wasn’t even the original person being replied to about the specific pass/non-pass, fyi. If you can’t criticize a play without resorting to “beer league” criticism than I imagine it’s not the most well supported point.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Nothing occurs in a vacuum. I don’t think that’s a crazy point. All I’m saying is let’s not use hyperbole that compares nhl players to beer leaguers and gaslight people that think to the contrary. I wasn’t even the original person being replied to about the specific pass/non-pass, fyi. If you can’t criticize a play without resorting to “beer league” criticism than I imagine it’s not the most well supported point.

I still don't think you're getting the just of the debate, though. You're so hyper-focused on this whole beer leaguer thing... but you're misunderstanding what he meant when he said it.

Someone claimed that the "passing lanes were closed and/or the passes were not possible for him to make."(because of the defenders). Though that has been debunked, as there was clearly wide open passing lanes to both Bedard and Kurashev, had SJ just picked up his head.

Pez claimed that no, they weren't closed, SJ never picked his f***ing head up to see the open options he had. Then followed it up (as a counter to the original poster's claim) that if he had picked his head up, he'd have seen the open passes, and that even beer leaguers can make those passes. The criticism is of him never even looking up to see his options, but going full hero goggles, and taking a low% shot with no good angles, in pretty tight, while he had two open players who easily score if either of them gets the puck, and that they were easy passes to either player, had he just picked his head up.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I still don't think you're getting the just of the debate, though.

Someone claimed that the "passing lanes were closed and/or the passes were not possible for him to make."(because of the defenders). Though that has been debunked, as there was clearly wide open passing lanes to both Bedard and Kurashev, had SJ just picked up his head.

Pez claimed that no, they weren't closed, SJ never picked his f***ing head up to see the open options he had. Then followed it up (as a counter to the original poster's claim) that if he had picked his head up, he'd have seen the open passes, and that even beer leaguers can make those passes. The criticism is of him never even looking up to see his options, but going full hero goggles, and taking a low% shot with no good angles, in pretty tight, while he had two open players who easily score if either of them gets the puck, and that they were easy passes to either player, had he just picked his head up.

Let's take your premise as correct, which for the sake of debate we will, you're essentially saying if Jones had picked his head up at the exact moment where his skating created an open lane then at that precise moment in time there was a play to be made and if you paused AT THAT EXACT MOMENT, substituted in a "high-level beer leaguer" and gave him the opportunity to look up and see the situation and make the play, that he maybe possibly some percent of time, would successfully complete the pass.

It's just a silly thing to even bring up. It's a recurring theme from someone who thinks he is more qualified to teach faceoffs than Yanic Perrault (I think he might win a few faceoffs in your Beer League, fwiw) among other things.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Let's take your premise as correct, which for the sake of debate we will, you're essentially saying if Jones had picked his head up at the exact moment where his skating created an open lane then at that precise moment in time there was a play to be made and if you paused AT THAT EXACT MOMENT, substituted in a "high-level beer leaguer" and gave him the opportunity to look up and see the situation and make the play, that he maybe possibly some percent of time, would successfully complete the pass.

It's just a silly thing to even bring up. It's a recurring theme from someone who thinks he is more qualified to teach faceoffs than Yanic Perrault (I think he might win a few faceoffs in your Beer League, fwiw) among other things.

Ummm. Yeah... I'm done.

I literally had to hold your hand through the entire explanation of the debate... and you still don't understand what I'm saying. You're still locked in on this whole beer leaguer thing for some f***ing reason. The point... again... is the passes were open, and very easy to make, if he had just picked his head up and looked. Which is pretty common for an NHL player... since you seem to keep talking about what a high level and speed they play at.(obviously)

So go back to Pez's original post, and substitute "easy passes to make" with "beer leaguers". That's all he was trying to say... so I'm not quite sure why you're making such a big deal out of it.

And just an FYI, since apparently you're not aware... guys in here, especially those that played the game, constantly make references/comparisons to beer leaguers when speaking about easy plays that were missed and such. It's pretty common practice...

 

[WarriorofTime]

Ummm. Yeah... I'm done.

I literally had to hold your hand through the entire explanation of the debate... and you still don't understand what I'm saying. You're still locked in on this whole beer leaguer thing for some f***ing reason. The point... again... is the passes were open, and very easy to make, if he had just picked his head up and looked. Which is pretty common for an NHL player... since you seem to keep talking about what a high level and speed they play at.(obviously)

So go back to Pez's original post, and substitute "easy passes to make" with "beer leaguers". That's all he was trying to say... so I'm not quite sure why you're making such a big deal out of it.

And just an FYI, since apparently you're not aware... guys in here, especially those that played the game, constantly make references/comparisons to beer leaguers when speaking about easy plays that were missed and such. It's pretty common practice...

Ok and if you can’t see how people thinking their Experiences are comparable to nhl games then I agree there is no helping you here no matter how many times I explain it to you.

 

[jaysoneil]

Many high level "beer leaguers" in the leagues that he plays in are ECHL, USHL, AHL, and D1 or D2 or D3 college players who didn't make it to the NHL. Just so you know. So I mean... most would be able to make that pass.

There's no passing in D3, what are you talking about lol

 

[bwanajamba]

This whole discussion feels like much ado about nothing tbh. Jones deciding to shoot there is fine even if it's arguably not the optimal choice and even if the shot itself was bad. You'd like one of the forwards to recognize and get back a little quicker but it's 3 on 3. These things happen in that format.

 

[Chelios]

Can you point out where it said that? He was speaking to the claim by someone else that the passing lanes were closed, when it was very much obvious they weren't. I mean, just last week I had a teammate on a C team I play on fire a saucer pass through two defenders, one the legs, one the stick, and land it right to me for a one-timer that I scored on(although a lot of our players on that team are B2 or higher level players). So... I'm not sure what you're honestly arguing here. Again, most people who played the game at any level of travel hockey for their life could make those passes. Jones just simply needed to pick his head up and look at his options.

Never once did I say the lane to Kurashev was closed. I already admitted that I erred on when the lane to Bedard was covered, that it was just before rather than just after the screen grab shown. I then showed exactly what I was referring to with a screen grab where there was literally 2 sticks in the lane between Seth and Bedard. Yea that changed after that, which I admitted, but the defenseman also shaded his body position over towards Bedard more, giving Seth an even more wide open path to the net. I also never argued that it was impossible to get the puck to Bedard, I said that it was higher risk than, you know, taking a clear path to the net that was given to him.

If you are going to be a pedantic a$$hole about this, at least be accurate about what I was arguing.

Congrats on the one-timer goal though, I bet that was sweet.

 

[MarotteMarauder]

It's just a silly thing to even bring up. It's a recurring theme from someone who thinks he is more qualified to teach faceoffs than Yanic Perrault (I think he might win a few faceoffs in your Beer League, fwiw) among other things.

There is often a wide gap between teaching a skill and possessing a skill.

 

[WarriorofTime]

There is often a wide gap between teaching a skill and possessing a skill.

The Blackhawks saw immediate improvement in faceoffs once they brought in Perreault. Dickinson went 42.6 % in Vancouver (and was 44.3 % in Dallas) and has been up to 48.6 % throughout Hawks tenure.

 

[ClydeLee]

The Blackhawks saw immediate improvement in faceoffs once they brought in Perreault. Dickinson went 42.6 % in Vancouver (and was 44.3 % in Dallas) and has been up to 48.6 % throughout Hawks tenure.

Right, pretty sure he was hired when Kruger went to a 10 pt jump in faceoff% then came consistently good. Though Krueger I think had an upper body injury that year he had 0 goals & he dipped below 50.

But last year the blackhawls were the top faceoff team in the league still. Max Domi had a career high in fo%

 

[shakes the clown]

Is this the thread where we list or Beer League credentials cause I was pretty friggen good till I had to hang em up in 2017 due to having a worse back than even Eric Daze.

 

[BHawk21]

Gunna get most balls in the lotto cuz Kane took that point from us. Kanes gifting us Celebrini.

 

[Pez68]

The Blackhawks are 31st in the NHL in faceoffs. .4% ahead of Arizona. Clearly, what their centers are doing is really working well? For people that actually understand faceoffs, you'll notice that they don't have a single center capable of winning a faceoff to their forehand. They all take their faceoffs with their bottom hand flipped over, and try to win it to their backhand(it's why they really don't have a "faceoff guy". Which means the team is entirely predictable in the circle. A big part of winning faceoffs as a center is deception. And if you can't take faceoffs on your forehand as well as your backhand, you're going to have a really tough time winning draws consistently. The few times guys try to win it to their forehand, they do so with the bottom hand still flipped over (which is the most idiotic thing I have ever seen). Handedness also matters when it comes to faceoffs.

While Dickinson's faceoff numbers have gone up since coming here, Foligno's have dropped significantly.

The Blackhawks faceoff numbers last season were pretty much a direct result of Toews being 63% in the dot.

I never trashed Perrault when it came to faceoff instruction. I questioned how much he is even involved, because I see fundamental problems with their faceoff technique that he should be correcting (as he did for years).

Watch the really good faceoff guys in the NHL, and then watch what the Hawks centers do. The flaws are crystal clear.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Never once did I say the lane to Kurashev was closed. I already admitted that I erred on when the lane to Bedard was covered, that it was just before rather than just after the screen grab shown. I then showed exactly what I was referring to with a screen grab where there was literally 2 sticks in the lane between Seth and Bedard. Yea that changed after that, which I admitted, but the defenseman also shaded his body position over towards Bedard more, giving Seth an even more wide open path to the net. I also never argued that it was impossible to get the puck to Bedard, I said that it was higher risk than, you know, taking a clear path to the net that was given to him.

If you are going to be a pedantic a$$hole about this, at least be accurate about what I was arguing.

Congrats on the one-timer goal though, I bet that was sweet.

I was just basically summarizing what was going on in the discussion for someone who just randomly jumped into it. I wasn't even directing any of this to you. Just so you're aware.

I wasn't about to go into details about the entire discussion. If he wanted that he could go read it himself. The main points from my posts were directed towards someone else, and a different discussion/debate.

 

[Pez68]

Also, this is a f***ing message board. Nobody here works in professional hockey, as far as I know. Nobody here played pro. The argument that someone isn't "qualified" to criticize aspects of the team is absurd.

 

[cassac]

Also, this is a f***ing message board. Nobody here works in professional hockey, as far as I know. Nobody here played pro. The argument that someone isn't "qualified" to criticize aspects of the team is absurd.

Well yes and no.

Everyone is qualified here except for me.