William Nylander Value/Contract

[Daisy Jane]

Willy could have resigned last summer when Ehlers and Pastrnak from his draft class did, but he likely chose not to..

I'm purely speculating that the reason he didn't sign was because he was betting on himself this past season hoping for a big payday after a big year beside Auston all season. That seemed to have backfired as his totals did not improve so now perhaps you're right that he will only want a bridge contract to attempt to maximize his future earnings.

or you know, that Lou Lamoriello very rarely (if ever) signs a RFA a year out.
but sure, let's go with your theory.

 

[thewave]

Why do folks think Nylander want a long term contract. IMO he signs a bridge hoping to a bigger contract later or a situation where he closer to free agency.

Better off trading him if he doesn't change or isn't willing. He is a complete let down to me and you don't win with self preservationalists.

He better come to camp bulked a bit and willing to take a hit. No bunnyhops over shots or 180s before going after 50/50 pucks.

Nylander senior should give him a talking about embarrassing the family. Alex would take the hit, heck Ehlers would.

 

[Notsince67]

You would think so Walshy but apparently he's not tough enough and that means his points aren't worth as much and we need to pretend the Washington series never took place

If we bridge Nylander when we're in a prime position to sign him long term to a very team friendly cap hit i'm going to be seriously pissed off

He's an RFA with limited wiggle room, I seriously doubt we're going to get a better situation than this in 2-3 years time

Exactly what was said of Phaneuf

 

[Nithoniniel]

I have a hard time taking anyone serious who suddenly wants to claim that what happened with Willy against Boston has been an ongoing problem throughout his career.

* Against Boston, Willy couldn't carry the puck at all. He couldn't find space and he bailed. He was awful in the neutral zone, with or without the puck. Rest of his career, he's been an elite neutral zone player and our best forward in transition.
* Against Boston, Willy was way down the list of our forwards when it came to overall contributions to offense. He barely had any passes to the slot at all. Rest of his career, he's been a high-end playmaker and one of our top guys at scoring chance assists.
* Against Boston, Willy was clearly bailing on plays whenever Chara bore down on him. Rest of his career, he's been an effective board player* by using his smarts and sneaky strength to win pucks free.

*I remember earlier in the year when discussing Hyman, someone posted stats from SAP (I think?) that had both Matthews and Willy with a ton of contested pucks won, birthing the whole discussion on Hyman forcing those situations rather than winning them himself.

I understand why people are upset about Willy in these playoffs. I am too. I can understand why, with it fresh in their mind, they feel reluctant to give him a big, long-term contract due to that. I don't agree, but I can understand that. But the way two posters in particular discuss him in this thread is borderline delusional.

 

[Menzinger]

I have a hard time taking anyone serious who suddenly wants to claim that what happened with Willy against Boston has been an ongoing problem throughout his career.

* Against Boston, Willy couldn't carry the puck at all. He couldn't find space and he bailed. He was awful in the neutral zone, with or without the puck. Rest of his career, he's been an elite neutral zone player and our best forward in transition.
* Against Boston, Willy was way down the list of our forwards when it came to overall contributions to offense. He barely had any passes to the slot at all. Rest of his career, he's been a high-end playmaker and one of our top guys at scoring chance assists.
* Against Boston, Willy was clearly bailing on plays whenever Chara bore down on him. Rest of his career, he's been an effective board player* by using his smarts and sneaky strength to win pucks free.

*I remember earlier in the year when discussing Hyman, someone posted stats from SAP (I think?) that had both Matthews and Willy with a ton of contested pucks won, birthing the whole discussion on Hyman forcing those situations rather than winning them himself.

I understand why people are upset about Willy in these playoffs. I am too. I can understand why, with it fresh in their mind, they feel reluctant to give him a big, long-term contract due to that. I don't agree, but I can understand that. But the way two posters in particular discuss him in this thread is borderline delusional.

I don’t understand it either, it’s like the last few games of the playoffs shomehow erased everyone’s memories of the last three years.

 

[therealkoho]

Very reasonable, this.

yes it is, but that said I want a player to perform when all the chips are on the table, the fact is that Marner did and Nylander didn't

Marner has at least earned long term consideration on a new contract, he was a horse who skated through the high traffic areas and produced both in this years playoffs and last

Nylander has cast doubt on what he's going to be, he has close to the same skill set as Marner, but doesn't seem to have the will to perform at his peak when the going gets rough

 

[therealkoho]

Nylander has a much higher compete level then Marner. Just because Marner jumps up and down after every play doesnt mean he tries hard.
Marner was soft as butter in the playoffs as that is what he does best. Sure he skates fast in a wreakless way, but that doesnt equal better compete, thats someone that isnt aware of the situation.
Babcock has tried a lot of things to get rid of the immature habits of this player, but sadly Marner simply isnt very smart and refuses to learn. Marner also was invisible in last years playoffs, where Nylander outplayed him.
Marner is butter soft and until this changes, we will be left with a flawed player.
Nylander works much harder and is more efficient as well. He is very good at reading the situation and knowing when to go at 100%. Nylander simply is much more effective then Marner.

nt sr if srs

 

[therealkoho]

I have a hard time taking anyone serious who suddenly wants to claim that what happened with Willy against Boston has been an ongoing problem throughout his career.

* Against Boston, Willy couldn't carry the puck at all. He couldn't find space and he bailed. He was awful in the neutral zone, with or without the puck. Rest of his career, he's been an elite neutral zone player and our best forward in transition.
* Against Boston, Willy was way down the list of our forwards when it came to overall contributions to offense. He barely had any passes to the slot at all. Rest of his career, he's been a high-end playmaker and one of our top guys at scoring chance assists.
* Against Boston, Willy was clearly bailing on plays whenever Chara bore down on him. Rest of his career, he's been an effective board player* by using his smarts and sneaky strength to win pucks free.

*I remember earlier in the year when discussing Hyman, someone posted stats from SAP (I think?) that had both Matthews and Willy with a ton of contested pucks won, birthing the whole discussion on Hyman forcing those situations rather than winning them himself.

I understand why people are upset about Willy in these playoffs. I am too. I can understand why, with it fresh in their mind, they feel reluctant to give him a big, long-term contract due to that. I don't agree, but I can understand that. But the way two posters in particular discuss him in this thread is borderline delusional.

looking back a few seasons he was benched during the playoffs as a Marlie

the reason given, was that he was being "inconsistent," and in coach speak what that usually means is that he was giving less then a full effort putting it politely

 

[Menzinger]

looking back a few seasons he was benched during the playoffs as a Marlie

the reason given, was that he was being "inconsistent," and in coach speak what that usually means is that he was giving less then a full effort putting it politely

He also looked worn out by that time - which isn’t uncommon for rookies adjusting to a more pro schedule. Matthews looked similar during the final part of his rookie regular season.

The season following Nylander didn’t have any such issues during the Washington series. He also had probably the strongest finish to that regular season of the big three.

 

[Notsince67]

I have a hard time taking anyone serious who suddenly wants to claim that what happened with Willy against Boston has been an ongoing problem throughout his career.

* Against Boston, Willy couldn't carry the puck at all. He couldn't find space and he bailed. He was awful in the neutral zone, with or without the puck. Rest of his career, he's been an elite neutral zone player and our best forward in transition.
* Against Boston, Willy was way down the list of our forwards when it came to overall contributions to offense. He barely had any passes to the slot at all. Rest of his career, he's been a high-end playmaker and one of our top guys at scoring chance assists.
* Against Boston, Willy was clearly bailing on plays whenever Chara bore down on him. Rest of his career, he's been an effective board player* by using his smarts and sneaky strength to win pucks free.

*I remember earlier in the year when discussing Hyman, someone posted stats from SAP (I think?) that had both Matthews and Willy with a ton of contested pucks won, birthing the whole discussion on Hyman forcing those situations rather than winning them himself.

I understand why people are upset about Willy in these playoffs. I am too. I can understand why, with it fresh in their mind, they feel reluctant to give him a big, long-term contract due to that. I don't agree, but I can understand that. But the way two posters in particular discuss him in this thread is borderline delusional.

I like Willy but he is the one who refused to negotiate a contract during the regular season, hoping for a higher contract. On a critical year, he failed to perform at a higher level. What does that say about his ceiling? If his performance stays flat throughout his contract, what would you be willing to pay him at what term?

 

[diceman934]

Explain. How did he show you that?

Like, what has Marner done that Nylander hasn't, in that regard?

All things Marner does that Nylander does not:
Compete for 50/50 pucks. Block shots, take a hit to make a play and not tuck tail and pull the chute when the possibility of being hit is present.

 

[kindalaidback]

Stop stating my name in your posts...you either quote me and debate my opinion or leave my name out of your opinion as that is called flaming!

FYI I posted my opinion as that is what this whole forum is. I post my opinion with my reasons for my opinion....you should try it sometime.

nope, that's not flaming.

1) Flaming: Critique the opinion, not the person. Personal attacks against members are not permitted. Report flaming, do not respond to it. Counter-flaming is also prohibited.

please show me where i attacked you. oh, wait you don't have to because i didn't do anything wrong. thanks for coming.
and no, you do not post your opinion with reasons for your opinion- writing stuff like, "i know that babcock will play willie on that line and he will not get another 60 points" is not having an opinion but rather stating it as a fact. fact is, you do not know what babcock will do because you do not know what he is thinking.

I am calling Nylander exactly what he is: a highly skilled player who avoids contact and has not shown that he is willing to do what it takes to help his team win. If that is an insult to him, I am fine with that!

and then you are surprised that people don't wanna debate anything you say because you are constantly making things up.

 

[diceman934]

looking back a few seasons he was benched during the playoffs as a Marlie

the reason given, was that he was being "inconsistent," and in coach speak what that usually means is that he was giving less then a full effort putting it politely

Yes and Babcock replaces him in games when protecting leads all the time as he simply will not do what it takes to protect the lead.

 

[kindalaidback]

He also looked worn out by that time - which isn’t uncommon for rookies adjusting to a more pro schedule. Matthews looked similar during the final part of his rookie regular season.

The season following Nylander didn’t have any such issues during the Washington series. He also had probably the strongest finish to that regular season of the big three.

nylander also missed one or two games in the first round due to illness, and i suspect that it was more than just him being sick, but who knows.

 

[diceman934]

nope, that's not flaming.


please show me where i attacked you. oh, wait you don't have to because i didn't do anything wrong. thanks for coming.
and no, you do not post your opinion with reasons for your opinion- writing stuff like, "i know that babcock will play willie on that line and he will not get another 60 points" is not having an opinion but rather stating it as a fact. fact is, you do not know what babcock will do because you do not know what he is thinking.



and then you are surprised that people don't wanna debate anything you say because you are constantly making things up.

Get a grip. My opinion is not making things up and just an FYI I am not the only one who sees the same thing that Willy avoids checks fails to engage in a 50/50 puck battle and will not blocks shots all things needed to help a team win a game.

But go ahead and call me a liar again as you just did accusing me of making things up.

Willy needs to step up his game and I see no reason to reward him with a long term deal until he does.

 

[diceman934]

I have a hard time taking anyone serious who suddenly wants to claim that what happened with Willy against Boston has been an ongoing problem throughout his career.

* Against Boston, Willy couldn't carry the puck at all. He couldn't find space and he bailed. He was awful in the neutral zone, with or without the puck. Rest of his career, he's been an elite neutral zone player and our best forward in transition.
* Against Boston, Willy was way down the list of our forwards when it came to overall contributions to offense. He barely had any passes to the slot at all. Rest of his career, he's been a high-end playmaker and one of our top guys at scoring chance assists.
* Against Boston, Willy was clearly bailing on plays whenever Chara bore down on him. Rest of his career, he's been an effective board player* by using his smarts and sneaky strength to win pucks free.

*I remember earlier in the year when discussing Hyman, someone posted stats from SAP (I think?) that had both Matthews and Willy with a ton of contested pucks won, birthing the whole discussion on Hyman forcing those situations rather than winning them himself.

I understand why people are upset about Willy in these playoffs. I am too. I can understand why, with it fresh in their mind, they feel reluctant to give him a big, long-term contract due to that. I don't agree, but I can understand that. But the way two posters in particular discuss him in this thread is borderline delusional.

Delusional. Please explain why he is never on the ice when protecting the lead late in games and I do not mean the last two minutes it is much longer then that.

Then also please explain the amount of times Babcock has removed him from playing with Mathews and put him elsewhere perfering Brown there?

Then while you are at it look at post game threads and see just how many times people have said the same thing I have been saying every time we play a physical team. It is very consistent and even the Marlie coached benched him in the playoffs for the same reason as the team we were playing were very physical. It has been since his career had started and you calling me delusional is priceless when people seem to conveniently forgot that this was not a 7 game series issue but his NHL career to date issue. Happens in every physical game more so on the road as we lack last change.

 

[therealkoho]

He also looked worn out by that time - which isn’t uncommon for rookies adjusting to a more pro schedule. Matthews looked similar during the final part of his rookie regular season.

The season following Nylander didn’t have any such issues during the Washington series. He also had probably the strongest finish to that regular season of the big three.

you made of rubber? that's some crazy twisting

 

[Joey Hoser]

All things Marner does that Nylander does not:
Compete for 50/50 pucks. Block shots, take a hit to make a play and not tuck tail and pull the chute when the possibility of being hit is present.

Marner spent two months on the fourth line this year for the same type of stuff.

 

[Notsince67]

Marner spent two months on the fourth line this year for the same type of stuff.

Great point. Proble is that you would expect it from Marner. Nylander began playing with men in the AHL in 2014-2015 (5 seasons now under his belt in pros). Marner was starting his second season with the OHL at the time (2 seasons now under his belt in pros). One would think the seasoning of skill level would be a bit different, no?

 

[Menzinger]

you made of rubber? that's some crazy twisting

What?

I’m providing context. There’s a narrative in this thread that Nylander “disappears”, during important games - and it’s demonstrably false.

 

[Notsince67]

What?

I’m providing context. There’s a narrative in this thread that Nylander “disappears”, during important games - and it’s demonstrably false.

You can argue that he lapsed but the rest of your statement....? Perhaps disappear is the wrong word. He was quite visibly shit against Boston.

 

[kindalaidback]

holy f***, because development is linear, right? i swear to god, do you guys know anything about playing sports?

What?

I’m providing context. There’s a narrative in this thread that Nylander “disappears”, during important games - and it’s demonstrably false.

dude, don't bother. they do not understand that after a long season you might not feel 100 percent anymore and battle through fatigue or play through an injury.

and he was one of our best players against washington, but they don't wanna hear it, so who cares what they think.

 

[Stephen]

The evaluation of William Nylander (and all the kids) is an ongoing process. I think more scrutiny is better than less scrutiny because these are guys who are going to be getting a lot of money and term, so you want to objectively know what you have as opposed to what you hope you have. The Leafs are going to play more big games and we're going to see if Nylander's performance against Boston was a blip or a worrisome trend. In any case, you can't fall in love with the idea of the Big Three, they have to match that hope with actual performance.

 

[Notsince67]

holy ****, because development is linear, right? i swear to god, do you guys know anything about playing sports?

Actually nhl player development is charted almost always as a gamma curve in the first few years. Not sure the point here.
Outside the quantitative descriptions, there are also some qualitative attributes of champions. Champions perform when they need to. Call it heart, compete, grit...etc.

 

[Menzinger]

You can argue that he lapsed but the rest of your statement....? Perhaps disappear is the wrong word. He was quite visibly **** against Boston.

I don’t think anybody is trying to argue that he played well against Boston - because he didntZ

What some people are challenging is the notion that this recent series should define who he is as a player or mean more than everything else he’s done as young player/prospect.