Why retooling is the best option for the Habs

[Spring in Fialta]

Because I don't think the 2014 Habs were a true contender? Are you serious? I don't think you've looked around the league that much. Check out some of the teams...

Honestly man... you read too much hfboards

No, that's not it. Others disagreed and made sensical rebuttals. But claiming that this year's team isn't much different from 2014 or that we wouldn't be in this situation if the 2014 team had proven itself is either a trolling attempt or someone so misguided that a discussion is essentially fruitless. I have no appetite to engage either of these options.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Isn't that what you said? I'm sorry. That's what I got. What was your actual point? I'm sorry if I blurred it... I was just surprised!!

What I was saying was that our window was squandered. Last summer was really our last chance to try to salvage something. I'm not saying that our window was only last year... I'm saying that it was previous to last summer and now it's gone completely.

We were ALREADY in not so great shape last summer and the offseasons moves just made it worse. It's over. Time to accept it and start over.

 

[Runner77]

While the talk is very much around John Tavares, I think Bergevin should pursue John Carlson. With this addition, that defense becomes more potent, especially if you can reunite Alzner with Carlson, ...

You lost me at the bolded and stopped reading.

Alzner should be united with the waiver wire, nothing can salvage what he's become. He's an addition by subtraction, we need the least hurtful exit scenario they can find for him. It's an obvious mistake-signing, like when the Rags consented a multi-year contract to Brendan Smith -- and Smith was better than Alzner and was demoted. You can't add a player on the premise that the player can help Alzner in some way, it's a waste of resources.

 

[Laurentide]

What I was saying was that our window was squandered. Last summer was really our last chance to try to salvage something. I'm not saying that our window was only last year... I'm saying that it was previous to last summer and now it's gone completely.

We were ALREADY in not so great shape last summer and the offseasons moves just made it worse. It's over. Time to accept it and start over.

I said at least a couple of years ago that if this team hadn't got where it needed to go by the time Price's and Pacioretty's cap-friendly contracts were up that you'd have to blow it up and start from scratch. As usual, the Habs tried to keep the window open with a series of half-measures. All they accomplished was to ensure that the window will remain closed longer than it needs to be.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I said at least a couple of years ago that if this team hadn't got where it needed to go by the time Price's and Pacioretty's cap-friendly contracts were up that you'd have to blow it up and start from scratch. As usual, the Habs tried to keep the window open with a series of half-measures. All they accomplished was to ensure that the window will remain closed longer than it needs to be.

Most folks felt we were a playoff team going into this season but nothing more. It was already painfully obvious that this team was done in terms of being anything close to a contender. I don't see how that changes now even if we were to add Tavares. Our D still sucks badly. We still have guys playing out of position and Paccioretty's deal is coming to an end.

Scrap it, start over, rebuild... it's sad to say this since we had a great up and coming club only five years ago but we've mangled it to the point where we need to rebuild AGAIN.

 

[Runner77]

I said at least a couple of years ago that if this team hadn't got where it needed to go by the time Price's and Pacioretty's cap-friendly contracts were up that you'd have to blow it up and start from scratch. As usual, the Habs tried to keep the window open with a series of half-measures. All they accomplished was to ensure that the window will remain closed longer than it needs to be.

That's consistent with the GM saying on day one that he'd be building through the draft and then not following through. There is no plan, GM improvises and looks for quick fixes but never deals with the issues. Meantime, we're seeing teams building through the draft that actually are staffing talented scouting departments. And we're doing nothing to poach the best out there. Bergevin's friends have been the best at being friends, loyal to a fault and probably telling Bergevin what he wants to hear. You can't move forward with this type of thinking.

But hey, it failed in previous years, why not bring back Bergevin and his friends.

 

[NotProkofievian]

You lost me at the bolded and stopped reading.

Alzner should be united with the waiver wire, nothing can salvage what he's become. He's an addition by subtraction, we need the least hurtful exit scenario they can find for him. It's an obvious mistake-signing, like when the Rags consented a multi-year contract to Brendan Smith -- and Smith was better than Alzner and was demoted. You can't add a player on the premise that the player can help Alzner in some way, it's a waste of resources.

It's going to be really funny if we win the lottery. Before the lottery ''we don't need elite talent, we just need to be responsible defensively! Defense wins championships, and Alzner is a great defenceman who just had a bad year!'' Dahlin arrives. ''Alzner? Who dat?''

 

[WeThreeKings]

It's going to be really funny if we win the lottery. Before the lottery ''we don't need elite talent, we just need to be responsible defensively! Defense wins championships, and Alzner is a great defenceman who just had a bad year!'' Dahlin arrives. ''Alzner? Who dat?''

I see your Montreal Canadiens with Rasmus Dahlin

and I raise you the Sudbury Wolves with the greatest attitude of all time

Eat your f***in' heart out, kid.

 

[WinterLion]

What I was saying was that our window was squandered. Last summer was really our last chance to try to salvage something. I'm not saying that our window was only last year... I'm saying that it was previous to last summer and now it's gone completely.

We were ALREADY in not so great shape last summer and the offseasons moves just made it worse. It's over. Time to accept it and start over.

OK I see. Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

If you mean build with young players and picks... then I agree! I would also agree that some veterans should be traded if they don't fit into our next window. I'm not sold on the whole sell everybody thing, because it's actually very unrealistic. No team can really do that.

The 2 biggest questions I have are about Price & Weber. Can we build a young team while keeping those 2 guys around?? Also is Price ever going to be solid again?? It's very doubtful that they are both moved any time soon. The Weber contract is actually very moveable... The Price contract not so much.

Personally I'm ok with the team being mediocre, I just don't want any more bad long term contracts or bad long term signings.

 

[WinterLion]

No, that's not it. Others disagreed and made sensical rebuttals. But claiming that this year's team isn't much different from 2014 or that we wouldn't be in this situation if the 2014 team had proven itself is either a trolling attempt or someone so misguided that a discussion is essentially fruitless. I have no appetite to engage either of these options.

No problem. I should have probably made my point a bit more clearly. In my estimation the problem with what you are saying is that since 2014 the Habs were not able to add good young home grown players. When you don't do that, you are bound to decline. We had 4 VERY bad draft years where we didn't have many picks and we had L. Leblanc & Tinordi completely bust (along with Kristo and others). To me that was the real problem with the team back then. If you look at all the good teams around the league, they have a stream of good young players that eventually saturates your system and allows you to make trades. The team back then was not even close to that. We had no good young players and no spare parts to trade. This team has been sick internally and needs to build a much better pipeline of young players... and this takes time.

If we trade Paccioretti it will be because we have finally accumulated enough good young wingers to replace him. Good teams are able to do this more often at many positions... we have not been a good team and have not had this opportunity due to desperate management for decades. That's my point. Again, I'm sorry for any childish bickering I didn't mean it that way.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

OK I see. Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

If you mean build with young players and picks... then I agree! I would also agree that some veterans should be traded if they don't fit into our next window. I'm not sold on the whole sell everybody thing, because it's actually very unrealistic. No team can really do that.

The 2 biggest questions I have are about Price & Weber. Can we build a young team while keeping those 2 guys around?? Also is Price ever going to be solid again?? It's very doubtful that they are both moved any time soon. The Weber contract is actually very moveable... The Price contract not so much.

Personally I'm ok with the team being mediocre, I just don't want any more bad long term contracts or bad long term signings.

Price can be moved and it's not nearly the albatross people think it is. If we rebuild (and we should) we can deal him elsewhere and eat part of his cap for the next four years. We've got nothing but cap space anyway so it makes sense to do that. One bad year doesn't invalidate his career. He's been the most consistent goalie in hockey up until this season and teams would pay for that.

Weber can also be moved as can Paccioretty. Those are the three that we should start with. Galchenyuk should be moved back to center and Drouin back to wing. Let them play in their normal spots and hopefully have some success. If Chuck gets off to a quick start, I'd probably look at dealing him too.

We have vets and cap space to trade with. We can take back bad contracts and older players for the next two to four seasons. Over that time we should stockpile picks and prospects. If we do that we can shorten the rebuild window.

The only other way to possibly avoid this would be Tavares. As I said above though, even adding him doesn't alleviate our other problems. We've still got huge holes on the D and our team is kind of a mess the way it's made up.

I really don't see any other way than a full fledged rebuild right now.

 

[brian70]

You lost me at the bolded and stopped reading.

Alzner should be united with the waiver wire, nothing can salvage what he's become. He's an addition by subtraction, we need the least hurtful exit scenario they can find for him. It's an obvious mistake-signing, like when the Rags consented a multi-year contract to Brendan Smith -- and Smith was better than Alzner and was demoted. You can't add a player on the premise that the player can help Alzner in some way, it's a waste of resources.

I too stopped reading after your first sentence.

Alzner was a bad pickup. I don’t know why Bergevin thought that would help his defense but he’s there and will remain there. They won’t trade him, they won’t waive him.

That being said, if you think Carlson wouldn’t improve your defense, then you don’t need anything. He’s the best UFA defenseman available this summer and Bergevin would be crazy to ignore him.

If he can manage to hire him, then Carlson-Alzner and Petry-Mete would be better suited and that would place Alzner in his best possible seat.

 

[brian70]

Price can be moved and it's not nearly the albatross people think it is. If we rebuild (and we should) we can deal him elsewhere and eat part of his cap for the next four years. We've got nothing but cap space anyway so it makes sense to do that. One bad year doesn't invalidate his career. He's been the most consistent goalie in hockey up until this season and teams would pay for that.

Weber can also be moved as can Paccioretty. Those are the three that we should start with. Galchenyuk should be moved back to center and Drouin back to wing. Let them play in their normal spots and hopefully have some success. If Chuck gets off to a quick start, I'd probably look at dealing him too.

We have vets and cap space to trade with. We can take back bad contracts and older players for the next two to four seasons. Over that time we should stockpile picks and prospects. If we do that we can shorten the rebuild window.

The only other way to possibly avoid this would be Tavares. As I said above though, even adding him doesn't alleviate our other problems. We've still got huge holes on the D and our team is kind of a mess the way it's made up.

I really don't see any other way than a full fledged rebuild right now.

Price, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk... you forgot Weber and Gallagher. So just trade all of your best assets. And when in 5 to 10 years, the team still has a few holes, rinse and repeat? I remember a baseball team who used to do that.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Yeah, gonna have to disagree with the idea of trading literally everyone. First of all, Carey Price won't stop a rebuild. Neither will Weber. A rebuild can be induced by losing any scoring at all. You can really give yourself a good chance at Jack Hughes by letting go of 1 or 2 players.

 

[Runner77]

Alzner was a bad pickup. I don’t know why Bergevin thought that would help his defense but he’s there and will remain there. They won’t trade him, they won’t waive him.

That being said, if you think Carlson wouldn’t improve your defense, then you don’t need anything. He’s the best UFA defenseman available this summer and Bergevin would be crazy to ignore him.

If he can manage to hire him, then Carlson-Alzner and Petry-Mete would be better suited and that would place Alzner in his best possible seat.

Why can't the Habs do with Alzner what the Rags did with Brendan Smith? At least the Rags' GM owned up to his mistake.

Sure, sign a D on the premise that he fills a need but not for a reason that involves Alzner. There are several ways to deal with Alzner, it's just a matter of first and foremost, accepting that they've made a mistake. Happens to every GM -- it's what you do after the mistake that counts and not trying to fix it through another asset. The signing of incoming assets need to be justifiable on their own merits and whether they are filling a need, independently of fixing Alzner.

 

[WinterLion]

Price can be moved and it's not nearly the albatross people think it is. If we rebuild (and we should) we can deal him elsewhere and eat part of his cap for the next four years. We've got nothing but cap space anyway so it makes sense to do that. One bad year doesn't invalidate his career. He's been the most consistent goalie in hockey up until this season and teams would pay for that.

Weber can also be moved as can Paccioretty. Those are the three that we should start with. Galchenyuk should be moved back to center and Drouin back to wing. Let them play in their normal spots and hopefully have some success. If Chuck gets off to a quick start, I'd probably look at dealing him too.

We have vets and cap space to trade with. We can take back bad contracts and older players for the next two to four seasons. Over that time we should stockpile picks and prospects. If we do that we can shorten the rebuild window.

The only other way to possibly avoid this would be Tavares. As I said above though, even adding him doesn't alleviate our other problems. We've still got huge holes on the D and our team is kind of a mess the way it's made up.

I really don't see any other way than a full fledged rebuild right now.

That would be very exciting, and if you think Price & Weber won't be able to compete in 3 years when (hopefully) the team starts competing again... then I would trade them. The problem is that you will then need to find players to take their spot... and those two positions are hard to replace.

I honestly don't see any team taking on the Price contract until he shows he can play hockey again. I think most people would agree that they had to sign Price when they did and that he got market value.... but that deal might end up being the worst thing Bergevin does in his tenure.... let's hope not.

 

[WinterLion]

Yeah, gonna have to disagree with the idea of trading literally everyone. First of all, Carey Price won't stop a rebuild. Neither will Weber. A rebuild can be induced by losing any scoring at all. You can really give yourself a good chance at Jack Hughes by letting go of 1 or 2 players.

I tend to agree. I also don't think a rebuild needs to mean you are bottom of the league. With the lottery it's all up in the air as we are about to find out. I'm in favour of a team full of young players who can grow together with some key veterans sprinkled in. I think that is basically what is happening, though the Defense needs to shed... Just no more f***ing band-aid trades... keep and acquire picks!

 

[brian70]

Why can't the Habs do with Alzner what the Rags did with Brendan Smith? At least the Rags' GM owned up to his mistake.

Sure, sign a D on the premise that he fills a need but not for a reason that involves Alzner. There are several ways to deal with Alzner, it's just a matter of first and foremost, accepting that they've made a mistake. Happens to every GM -- it's what you do after the mistake that counts and not trying to fix it through another asset. The signing of incoming assets need to be justifiable on their own merits and whether they are filling a need, independently of fixing Alzner.

If Alzner doesn’t do better with a true offensive defenseman he is familiar with, then obviously he ends up on the third pair and can be replaced at any point. But avoiding playing the best odds just because you didn’t like the pickup doesn’t make much sense, does it?

 

[WeThreeKings]

Yeah, gonna have to disagree with the idea of trading literally everyone. First of all, Carey Price won't stop a rebuild. Neither will Weber. A rebuild can be induced by losing any scoring at all. You can really give yourself a good chance at Jack Hughes by letting go of 1 or 2 players.

You're still better off trading those guys while they are in their early 30s. The longer you hold on, the more value they lose and you should be trying to bring in as many high picks and prospects as possible.

 

[NotProkofievian]

You're still better off trading those guys while they are in their early 30s. The longer you hold on, the more value they lose and you should be trying to bring in as many high picks and prospects as possible.

I think there's still good years on Weber and Price. I agree with succession planning, but I think that can be done once we have Lafrenière in tow. I'm not sure that I want to see this team completely stripped to the studs of anyone who's accomplished anything of significance.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I think there's still good years on Weber and Price. I agree with succession planning, but I think that can be done once we have Lafrenière in tow. I'm not sure that I want to see this team completely stripped to the studs of anyone who's accomplished anything of significance.

There may be, but do you really want to be left holding the bag during a rebuild because you guessed wrongly on Prices and Weber's best before date?

 

[Laurentide]

There may be, but do you really want to be left holding the bag during a rebuild because you guessed wrongly on Prices and Weber's best before date?

What's one more organizational error? Toss it on the pile with all the rest of them. After all, it's not like repeatedly screwing up is a fireable offense with this franchise. As long as you do your best and have fun you can keep your job, regardless of results.

 

[NotProkofievian]

There may be, but do you really want to be left holding the bag during a rebuild because you guessed wrongly on Prices and Weber's best before date?

That's not particularly desirable, but I also don't wanna buffalo myself either. One really lamentable thing about the last few years is that there's been no succession planning whatsoever. The younger generation hasn't really been included in the leadership group. If we do get rid of Price and Weber, who becomes the dominant voice in the room: Drouin?

We do clown on Bergevin a lot about character and attitude, but that's because of his cartoonish overemphasis on it, not because it has no value.

 

[WeThreeKings]

That's not particularly desirable, but I also don't wanna buffalo myself either. One really lamentable thing about the last few years is that there's been no succession planning whatsoever. The younger generation hasn't really been included in the leadership group. If we do get rid of Price and Weber, who becomes the dominant voice in the room: Drouin?

We do clown on Bergevin a lot about character and attitude, but that's because of his cartoonish overemphasis on it, not because it has no value.

There's still guys like Alzner (puke), Petry, Gallagher, Byron and if you're already planning on moving those guys for value.. then you make some contracts to UFAs who will have deadline value but can also contribute in the room. Call it, the Toronto approach.

I would probably slowly move the players. Like Patches would be gone at the draft this year. I'd be looking into moving Weber the next season and then Price the following one. Prices value will likely come back up as the cup rises.

 

[Runner77]

If Alzner doesn’t do better with a true offensive defenseman he is familiar with, then obviously he ends up on the third pair and can be replaced at any point. But avoiding playing the best odds just because you didn’t like the pickup doesn’t make much sense, does it?

Why play odds to help your worst player? How does that make sense?

To improve performance, you add assets that raise the game of your best assets, not your worst.