Where does Matthews rank ?

[Volica]

Player?

He'd likely be somewhere near the top 20-30? That's going to get heat, Matthews is an excellent player, but in today's game, there are a plethora of players I'd take in front of him if my goal was to win a cup this year. Not saying in 2-3 years he couldn't be easily in the top 3.

Additionally, the guy's out of the top 20 scoring this year (While missing 2 games, wow), and sitting at 15th in p/game... On a team that scores an absurd amount of goals. Saying that he's a top 15 player would then remove defencemen who are better than him and goalies that are better than he is as well. Hard to really argue with numbers.

He's in that 2/3rd tier of centres; which isn't a slight against him, he's only been in the NHL for 2 seasons. So you factor in those guys who a cut above, then the wingers who are top tier, then the D and the goalies; he's somewhere in that 20-30 range imo.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Misleading thread title. I opened it thinking where is AM ranked as a centre in the nhl top 3, top 5, top 10, top 15.......then I read OP and it stated “player” not centre. Options are not complete, too few options. Not sure if he’s a top 15 player in the world.....That’s being pretty optimistic imo, but I would need to look at complete player list to be fair. He’s a top 15 centre in the nhl yes, don’t think he’s a top 15 player at this point. So I can’t vote in this poll, not enough options. Poorly constructed poll made to influence the results clearly.

This is what I don't understand, how in the world are the Leafs 3rd in the NHL standings right now if Matthews is not a top 15 player in the world, it really doesn't make much sense to me.

Not saying you say this, but from what I read on HF the Leafs have no #1D, their best player isn't even top 15 in the world, Babcock is overrated (hence the Carlyle=Babcock thread), and Marner/Nylander are comparable to many young duos around the league. It's not even like they are on a PDO high like the Jets or Devils or Blues, it's sustainable success.

 

[authentic]

Misleading thread title. I opened it thinking where is AM ranked as a centre in the nhl top 3, top 5, top 10, top 15.......then I read OP and it stated “player” not centre. Options are not complete, too few options. Not sure if he’s a top 15 player in the world.....That’s being pretty optimistic imo, but I would need to look at complete player list to be fair. He’s a top 15 centre in the nhl yes, don’t think he’s a top 15 player at this point. So I can’t vote in this poll, not enough options. Poorly constructed poll made to influence the results clearly.

Interesting take for sure. Time will likely guide you in the right direction.

 

[authentic]

This is what I don't understand, how in the world are the Leafs 3rd in the NHL standings right now if Matthews is not a top 15 player in the world, it really doesn't make much sense to me.

Not saying you say this, but from what I read on HF the Leafs have no #1D, their best player isn't even top 15 in the world, Babcock is overrated (hence the Carlyle=Babcock thread), and Marner/Nylander are comparable to many young duos around the league. It's not even like they are on a PDO high like the Jets or Devils or Blues, it's sustainable success.

I think you may be on to something here.

 

[McDavidCrushedLarkin]

Can't vote not enough options.

 

[authentic]

Player?

He'd likely be somewhere near the top 20-30? That's going to get heat, Matthews is an excellent player, but in today's game, there are a plethora of players I'd take in front of him if my goal was to win a cup this year. Not saying in 2-3 years he couldn't be easily in the top 3.

Additionally, the guy's out of the top 20 scoring this year (While missing 2 games, wow), and sitting at 15th in p/game... On a team that scores an absurd amount of goals. Saying that he's a top 15 player would then remove defencemen who are better than him and goalies that are better than he is as well. Hard to really argue with numbers.

He's in that 2/3rd tier of centres; which isn't a slight against him, he's only been in the NHL for 2 seasons. So you factor in those guys who a cut above, then the wingers who are top tier, then the D and the goalies; he's somewhere in that 20-30 range imo.

He missed 4 games, which is a big deal considering how many games we are into the season and how close the race is from 5-20, and also considering he was visibly not close to 100% in the game before he left or the 2 or 3 games after returning.

Wait a minute I just read the bolded part of your post and now I'm honestly questioning who you're trying to fool?

 

[Hunter368]

This is what I don't understand, how in the world are the Leafs 3rd in the NHL standings right now if Matthews is not a top 15 player in the world, it really doesn't make much sense to me.

Not saying you say this, but from what I read on HF the Leafs have no #1D, their best player isn't even top 15 in the world, Babcock is overrated (hence the Carlyle=Babcock thread), and Marner/Nylander are comparable to many young duos around the league. It's not even like they are on a PDO high like the Jets or Devils or Blues, it's sustainable success.

You might want to reread my post, I stated to be fair I would need to look at a comprehensive list of players to answer. There are many very good players out there, answering the question just off the top of my head when Im not confident on the answer really isn’t giving the question an honest answer. Best player imo defined as offensive, defensive, experience and leadership combo.

I don’t think the Leafs have a #1D, you have two #2D which isn’t a bad thing.

Babs isn’t overrated I have often stated here he is without question a top 3 coach. Easy

Marner/Nylander are comparable to other good young players around the nhl, how are you taking that as a negative.

Leafs greatest strength imo are their coaching (world class) and depth (forwards you have easy top 5, top 9 forward group not even a debate).

Again not sure how you took offence to anything in my post.

 

[garyturner3]

because he doesn't belong outside the top 15? Don't give unrealistic options in polls....

Ya really. There's zero chance any legit hockey analyst would consider him outside the top 15 so adding an unrealistic option in here just to please the Leaf haters isn't something anybody should be worried about. I know his sample size isn't as large as some people would like to include him in this list and it's tough to mention him in the same class as a guy like Crosby, but that's just something people will have to get over because he's the real deal and that's the level he's at now like it or not. Pick any metric you want and the numbers will back it up as well.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Smart poll options to weed out joke votes from leaf haters

 

[authentic]

If you had seen how he, along with Marchand, neutered Kucherov-Stamkos a couple of nights ago (to the tune of a 6 to 1 scoring chances ratio, while starting 7 times out of 9 in our D zone), you would know why "people talk so high of him" (and if you rely on other people's opinion to have yourself an opinion about him, why do you even put him on a list? Shouldn't you have your very own opinion?).
And he does this every time with Marchy... Vs any line... Night in, night out... And he can also put up points. That's why "they talk about him highly"...

In such a two way game it is funny to see the best two way players usually end up the most underrated. The best winners are usually not the best players around here.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Can't vote not enough options.

There aren't any fewer options because it would be ridiculous to suggest he's anything worse than a top 15 player, and even the top 15 should be removed. You had a first hand look at him yesterday, remember?

 

[garyturner3]

I'm not here to bash the leafs - your poll is just bad.

McDavid was expected to become the best player in the world (generational) and was well on his way. Matthews doesn't have the same pedigree. As a Leafs fan you can argue he'll be as good/better than McDavid if you like - it still doesn't change that his pedigree is lower, which means he needs more accomplishments.

Finally.

Crosby
Malkin
McDavid
Kane
Benn
Price
Bob
Karlsson
Doughty
Hedman
Stamkos
Kucherov
Tavares
Bergeron
Seguin
Tarasenko

That's at least 16 players. A very solid case can be made that all of these players are better than Matthews today.

And a very solid case can be made that Matthews is better than at least half of that list today. Don't just look at point totals. Dig deeper into advanced possession stats and the level at which his line dominates 5-5 when he's on the ice is at the very top of the league. The only thing that's putting a guy like Malkin above Matthews in your list right now is his reputation and larger sample size. If you strictly look at the players they are today without letting history sway your opinion then Matthews is playing at or above the level Malkin (and many others) are right now. That's only going to sway in Matthews' favor as time passes so sooner or later people will have to accept it.

I'm a Leaf fan and it pained me to admit Karlsson was the best d-man in the league so early on in his career and you naturally want the larger sample sizes before anointing him better than the game's greats, but at the end of the day he's still winning the Norris at 21 because what everybody else did prior to that is irrelevant. Matthews has arrived and he's as good today as any forward in the league outside of McDavid.

 

[McDavidCrushedLarkin]

There aren't any fewer options because it would be ridiculous to suggest he's anything worse than a top 15 player, and even the top 15 should be removed. You had a first hand look at him yesterday, remember?

Not quite there yet, sorry. Your unbiased opinion is noted however.

 

[Saidin]

This is what I don't understand, how in the world are the Leafs 3rd in the NHL standings right now if Matthews is not a top 15 player in the world, it really doesn't make much sense to me.

Not saying you say this, but from what I read on HF the Leafs have no #1D, their best player isn't even top 15 in the world, Babcock is overrated (hence the Carlyle=Babcock thread), and Marner/Nylander are comparable to many young duos around the league. It's not even like they are on a PDO high like the Jets or Devils or Blues, it's sustainable success.

Leafs have the hightest PDO in the league atm. Jets/Devils/Blues are within 0.3 of Leafs. Corsica | Team Stats

I do think Matthews is top 15 thou. He's scary good.

 

[authentic]

Not quite there yet, sorry. Your unbiased opinion is noted however.

Yours is not though just to be clear.

 

[Plural]

And a very solid case can be made that Matthews is better than at least half of that list today. Don't just look at point totals. Dig deeper into advanced possession stats and the level at which his line dominates 5-5 when he's on the ice is at the very top of the league. The only thing that's putting a guy like Malkin above Matthews in your list right now is his reputation and larger sample size. If you strictly look at the players they are today without letting history sway your opinion then Matthews is playing at or above the level Malkin (and many others) are right now. That's only going to sway in Matthews' favor as time passes so sooner or later people will have to accept it.

I'm a Leaf fan and it pained me to admit Karlsson was the best d-man in the league so early on in his career and you naturally want the larger sample sizes before anointing him better than the game's greats, but at the end of the day he's still winning the Norris at 21 because what everybody else did prior to that is irrelevant. Matthews has arrived and he's as good today as any forward in the league outside of McDavid.

You're right but the thing is, it works both ways. There are arguments for all those guys to be ahead of Matthews too. I wouldn't agree with most of those arguments but it's not like it takes some massive bias to put all of the guys on the list ahead.

 

[Volica]

He missed 4 games, which is a big deal considering how many games we are into the season and how close the race is from 5-20, and also considering he was visibly not close to 100% in the game before he left or the 2 or 3 games after returning.

Wait a minute I just read the bolded part of your post and now I'm honestly questioning who you're trying to fool?

No one
Some Leafs folks are over sensitive; you take a post that isn't even overly aggressive and even compliments the player and it's still salty

I like Matthews, and I think he has the potential to be one of the best centres in the league within the next few years, but right now; these are the centres who are all playing better than him today: Crosby, Stamkos, Kopitar, McDavid, Scheifele, Tavares, Schenn, MacKinnon and Giroux; I'm not saying they're better players than Matthews, but they've had better years than him. Of those guys, Crosby, Stamkos, McDavid and Kopitar are clearly on the top tier of centres this year. Then you factor in a guy like Getzlaf, who's been injured this year, but is an absolutely dominant centre. Then you factor in a guy like Malkin who during a down season is still PPG pace and has been a beast for the past decade. Those 6 guys have either been the best player in the league before, have willed their team to a cup or have willed their team to a finals appearance or two.

Then I think you have a second/third tier;
Guys like Seguin, Scheifele, Tavares, MacKinnon, Giroux, Matthews; guys who are elite centres but either don't have a history or guys that put up points but haven't made noise where it counts.

Right away, you're playing behind 6 centres who on any given year are the best players in the league. Then you're in the mix with another 6-7 players down the middle. Then you start factoring in wingers that today are better players:
Kucherov, Gaudreau, Kessel, Marchard, Vorachek, Wheeler, Kane, Tarasenko & Ovechkin

Then you factor in Cinderella's this year in Bailey, Schenn & Schwartz.

Then you factor in defence:
Karlsson, Pieterangelo, Josi, Doughty, Hedman, Weber, OEL, Giordano, Suter, Burns

Then you factor in Goalies:
Bob, Vasilevskiy, Price, Jones, Quick, Schneider, Gibson, Holtby

To say that Matthews is clearly a top 15 player in the league is both arrogant and rose coloured. The guy hasn't won a cup, the guy hasn't won a scoring title, the guy hasn't won a Hart... Like I said, he's an elite player, but there are players that are simply better than him today.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Player?

He'd likely be somewhere near the top 20-30? That's going to get heat, Matthews is an excellent player, but in today's game, there are a plethora of players I'd take in front of him if my goal was to win a cup this year. Not saying in 2-3 years he couldn't be easily in the top 3.

Additionally, the guy's out of the top 20 scoring this year (While missing 2 games, wow), and sitting at 15th in p/game... On a team that scores an absurd amount of goals. Saying that he's a top 15 player would then remove defencemen who are better than him and goalies that are better than he is as well. Hard to really argue with numbers.

He's in that 2/3rd tier of centres; which isn't a slight against him, he's only been in the NHL for 2 seasons. So you factor in those guys who a cut above, then the wingers who are top tier, then the D and the goalies; he's somewhere in that 20-30 range imo.

he's missed 4 games and you can't use goalies, you can't compare forwards to goalies the positions are way way to different

 

[BruinLVGA]

In such a two way game it is funny to see the best two way players usually end up the most underrated. The best winners are usually not the best players around here.

Totally agree. It's because most people can't see beyond points totals and also look at the last 10 days of a player's performance as an absolute of that player's level. What I can't explain though is when someone puts two laughing emojis to describe his take on the idea that Patrick Kane is better than Matthews.

By the way, about what I wrote on the Bergeron line performance vs the Stamkos-Kucherov (this should be important to stat watchers: they're #1 and #2 in points in the NHL...) line, here's what a Tampa fan wrote in the GDT thread (post #140): "The top line is complete and utter garbage. Pure trash. They are being completely dominated by superior men."
He was talking about Marchand Bergeron Pastrnak (the "superior men") and he was right.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I'm not here to bash the leafs - your poll is just bad.

McDavid was expected to become the best player in the world (generational) and was well on his way. Matthews doesn't have the same pedigree. As a Leafs fan you can argue he'll be as good/better than McDavid if you like - it still doesn't change that his pedigree is lower, which means he needs more accomplishments.

Finally.

Crosby
Malkin
McDavid
Kane
Benn
Price
Bob
Karlsson
Doughty
Hedman
Stamkos
Kucherov
Tavares
Bergeron
Seguin
Tarasenko

That's at least 16 players. A very solid case can be made that all of these players are better than Matthews today.

If you are going to make a list, do it right, don't cheat and use goalies, you can't compare goalies to forwards the positions are way too different

 

[TOGuy14]

Voted top 10 for now.

Expect top 3, possibly as early as next season.

 

[Plural]

he's missed 4 games and you can't use goalies, you can't compare forwards to goalies the positions are way way to different

Then one can't use the word player as it implies all positions being taken in to account.

 

[DatSnipeMatthews]

I'm not here to bash the leafs - your poll is just bad.

McDavid was expected to become the best player in the world (generational) and was well on his way. Matthews doesn't have the same pedigree. As a Leafs fan you can argue he'll be as good/better than McDavid if you like - it still doesn't change that his pedigree is lower, which means he needs more accomplishments.

Finally.

Crosby
Malkin
McDavid
Kane
Benn
Price
Bob
Karlsson
Doughty
Hedman
Stamkos
Kucherov
Tavares
Bergeron
Seguin
Tarasenko

That's at least 16 players. A very solid case can be made that all of these players are better than Matthews today.

Let's take out wingers because they don't impact the game enough. So there goes Kane, Benn, Kuch, and Tarasenko. And goalies don't belong on this list. Start a poll and see who would vote for Price or Bob over Matthews.

Then he's better than (definitely) Bergeron and Seguin and on the same level as guys like Tavares, Stamkos, Hedman, and Doughty.

The only players on this list who are definitely better than Matthews are Crosby, Malkin (will probably change soon), McDavid, and Karlsson.

 

[Plural]

Let's take out wingers because they don't impact the game enough. So there goes Kane, Benn, Kuch, and Tarasenko. And goalies don't belong on this list. Start a poll and see who would vote for Price or Bob over Matthews.

Then he's better than (definitely) Bergeron and Seguin and on the same level as guys like Tavares, Stamkos, Hedman, and Doughty.

The only players on this list who are definitely better than Matthews are Crosby, Malkin (will probably change soon), McDavid, and Karlsson.

See, this is what I don't get and it seems to be only Matthews fans who do this. Insist on using wording such as "top-5 player in the game" all the while ignoring half the players in the league. I have no qualms about someone thinking Matthews is top-5 player in the league, he's legitimately that awesome. But don't scrap out half the players in the league and act like your list has more credibility than someone else when it's clear you're listing two different types of lists.

 

[BruinLVGA]

This is what I don't understand, how in the world are the Leafs 3rd in the NHL standings right now if Matthews is not a top 15 player in the world, it really doesn't make much sense to me.

Not saying you say this, but from what I read on HF the Leafs have no #1D, their best player isn't even top 15 in the world, Babcock is overrated (hence the Carlyle=Babcock thread), and Marner/Nylander are comparable to many young duos around the league. It's not even like they are on a PDO high like the Jets or Devils or Blues, it's sustainable success.

Because it's a team sport? We won a Cup in 2011 with our best guy 40th in points that year. We won a President's Trophy in 2014 with our best guy 23rd in points that year.