Where does Matthews rank ?

[bobholly39]

Bolded =

Plus goalies which how can you even compare them?

Nevermind several very debatable guys in there, especially when looking at this season. However in no world are the bolded better, and there really isn't an argument. Matthews is a similar offensive player as them with a much more complete game.

The point is he made a poll with silly options. There should be options that go as high up as 30, to be unbiased and open to a more proper discussion. Or simply an "outside top 15" option if you prefer.

As a habs fan - it would be similar to me making a poll asking "Is Carey Price first or 2nd best goalie in the world". I'm sure some people think both Bob and Holtby are better and would call me bias/unfair bc they don't have him top 2. Same idea here.

Also.

Kane is laughable? Same Kane who swept the awards 2 years ago and outscored Matthews by 20 points last year?
Or Benn - who scored as many points as Matthews last year (3 less games) while finishing top 2 for Ross the 2 prior years?
Tarasenko - 1 less goal, 6 more points last year. He's also ahead this year
Seguin - 3 more points last year
Bergeron - well a lot of people like him a lot, i'm not as high on him. But people talk about him very very highly

And goalies. Well - it's hard to compare goalies and players, but OP didn't say "top positional players". ie he included goalies too.

And my list of names is hardly exhaustive. I'm sure other people have different names they would include.
If you want to make bias polls to tout your own players, you should stick to the leafs section.

If you want to open up to a more broad discussion and get honnest opinions, don't make stupid poll options

 

[authentic]

He has to prove himself for longer obviously to cement himself as a top 5 player, which I believe he already is, but I think everyone safely agrees he's atleast top 10. To me he is clearly the best player after the big 3 (Crosby, McDavid, Karlsson) and only a healthy Malkin can match him in total impact on a game besides them. There are several others who are on his level offensively but none of them come close to his defensive game and puck possession (Stamkos, Kucherov, Kane, Gaudreau). Benn probably comes the closest among the elite offensive players but I believe Matthews is now the better offensive player and still better defensively than Benn. Kopitar and Barkov are extremely close though and likely better defensively but they are not on his level offensively. I could be proven wrong by the end of the season but that's my opinion for now.

 

[bobholly39]

He has to prove himself for longer obviously to cement himself as a top 5 player, which I believe he already is, but I think everyone safely agrees he's atleast top 10. To me he is clearly the best player after the big 3 (Crosby, McDavid, Karlsson) and only a healthy Malkin can match him in total impact on a game besides them. There are several others who are on his level offensively but none of them come close to his defensive game and puck possession (Stamkos, Kucherov, Kane, Gaudreau). Benn probably comes the closest among the elite offensive players but I believe Matthews is now the better offensive player and still better defensively than Benn. Kopitar and Barkov are extremely close though and likely better defensively but they are not on his level offensively. I could be proven wrong by the end of the season but that's my opinion for now.

The problem is he's not done enough to distance almost every single player you just listed. His track record is too short. And based on his results last year, a lot of those players were better last year, and are again this year.

Top 5 in the league? I think it's way too soon.

You can say that with Crosby even with his slow start because of track record.
You can say that with McDavid even though he's not at top of scoring league because of how he dominated last year, combined with his pedigree/expectancy of excellence.

Matthews simply isn't there yet. To claim he's top 5 overall right now is crazy, let alone top 3.

McDavid. Crosby. Karlsson. Whose he better then?

 

[authentic]

McDavid was leading the league in scoring and had the 2nd best PPG in the year and 25 games he had played. Matthews is currently a Top 15 PPG for this season and has the 20th best PPG in the year and 25 games he has played. There is no reasonable comparison to be made here.

If he finishes the year at his pace, he will be a Top 5 goalscorer and Top 15 scorer. This likely puts him in the Top 10 forwards but factoring in goalies and D-men, outside the Top 15 is not an unreasonable position.

It's a ridiculous opinion to those who watch hockey. All you post about is Crosby, points, points per game, top scorers, etc... I have never seen you make an actual analysis on a players game or post a single thing since I've been here that would indicate you've watched one. I don't mean that to be offensive either it's just the truth and would explain how you could think he's outside the top 10 forwards.
Watching the game is key to analyzing players.

 

[authentic]

The problem is he's not done enough to distance almost every single player you just listed. His track record is too short. And based on his results last year, a lot of those players were better last year, and are again this year.

Top 5 in the league? I think it's way too soon.

You can say that with Crosby even with his slow start because of track record.
You can say that with McDavid even though he's not at top of scoring league because of how he dominated last year, combined with his pedigree/expectancy of excellence.

Matthews simply isn't there yet. To claim he's top 5 overall right now is crazy, let alone top 3.

McDavid. Crosby. Karlsson. Whose he better then?

Huh? Did you even read my post? I never said he's better than those 3. Also do you watch the NHL games much or mostly just nhl.com stats? Serious question.

 

[X66]

All I know is, there isn't a scenario/situation any game where I am worried about the opposing teams best player being better than Matthews.

He's in that tier 1 where that applies to just a handful of players.

 

[daver]

It's a ridiculous opinion to those who watch hockey. All you post about is Crosby, points, points per game, top scorers, etc... I have never seen you make an actual analysis on a players game or post a single thing since I've been here that would indicate you've watched one. I don't mean that to be offensive either it's just the truth and would explain how you could think he's outside the top 10 forwards.
Watching the game is key to analyzing players.

The primary job of a Top 6 forward is to get the puck in the net. Other elements are fine if you want to differentiate similar producing players but, IMO, when you start moving players ahead of others it gets real sketchy.

The larger point is that this is far too early to judge.

 

[Janne Niinimaa]

McDavid
Crosby
Karlsson
Stamkos
Tavares
Tarasenko
Kucherov
Gaudreau
Kane
Benn
Hedman
Doughty
Seguin
Malkin

He is in that top group IMO. So top 15 but top 10 is reasonable. Going to go top 15 until the season ends.

 

[bobholly39]

Huh? Did you even read my post? I never said he's better than those 3. Also do you watch the NHL games much or mostly just nhl.com stats? Serious question.

I know you didn't say he's better than those 3, but the poll options asks that. Which is why I said to you i think saying he's top 5 overall right now is crazy, let alone top 3 as the poll asks.

Serious answer - i've not watched him play a lot, no. I tend to mostly watch my own team, and then more in playoffs. So judging mostly off results and stats.

It still doesn't change my point. The poll options suck. It's all I said. Saying Crosby is outside of top 15 or even McDavid is ludicrous. Matthews? That is a more plausible scenario, and should be an option. There are a lot of good players in this league.

Matthews wasn't expected to be the best player in the world (like McDavid). His hype/pedigree is a tier below.
Matthews wasn't the top player last year - was he even top 15 overall last year?
He has no track record yet (though well on his way to building one 1/4th into his 2nd year)
He's doing good so far this year - but it's not like he's the best player so far (like for example McDavid was from the start last year)

So yeah. Poll options suck. Saying he's outside top 15 is a defensible position. For what it's worth, i probably have him very close to that 15 range, give or take a few spots up/down.

 

[Plural]

there arent 15 guys better than matthews. thats beyond silly.
sorry if i didnt tickle the fancy of those who come on here just to bash down the leafs.

Mcdavid was annointed the best in the world at the same age as Matthews. would you have said he wasnt top 15 when he was on his way to the art ross?

nah, get lost

I went with top-10 cause I think his pedigree as a promising young player has some weight but in all honesty you should have included outside top-15. It's just as unreasonable as top-3.

 

[authentic]

All I know is, there isn't a scenario/situation any game where I am worried about the opposing teams best player being better than Matthews.

He's in that tier 1 where that applies to just a handful of players.

May sound biased to some but this sums it up pretty easily. Even last night against McDavid I wasn't that worried with Matthews on the ice. He broke up a number of McDavid's plays and got the better of him. He can go head to head with anyone and I feel comfortable. The amount of chances he creates for himself and his linemates combined with the amount of chances he prevents is arguably the best. I strongly suspect he may be the most impactful player in the world this season when he's playing his best.

 

[WillTheThrill]

Top 10

 

[Plural]

May sound biased to some but this sums it up pretty easily. Even last night against McDavid I wasn't that worried with Matthews on the ice. He broke up a number of McDavid's plays and got the better of him. He can go head to head with anyone and I feel comfortable. The amount of chances he creates for himself and his linemates combined with the amount of chances he prevents is arguably the best. I strongly suspect he may be the most impactful player in the world this season when he's playing his best.

Haha, I was actually thinking the exact same thing yesterday. There's only select few players who give you the feel that every single time they're on the ice they are the best player on the ice. Matthews is one of those. Even though Kucherov (for example) has been better than Matthews this year I still feel that Matthews will end up being the better player very shortly.

 

[authentic]

I know you didn't say he's better than those 3, but the poll options asks that. Which is why I said to you i think saying he's top 5 overall right now is crazy, let alone top 3 as the poll asks.

Serious answer - i've not watched him play a lot, no. I tend to mostly watch my own team, and then more in playoffs. So judging mostly off results and stats.

It still doesn't change my point. The poll options suck. It's all I said. Saying Crosby is outside of top 15 or even McDavid is ludicrous. Matthews? That is a more plausible scenario, and should be an option. There are a lot of good players in this league.

Matthews wasn't expected to be the best player in the world (like McDavid). His hype/pedigree is a tier below.
Matthews wasn't the top player last year - was he even top 15 overall last year?
He has no track record yet (though well on his way to building one 1/4th into his 2nd year)
He's doing good so far this year - but it's not like he's the best player so far (like for example McDavid was from the start last year)

So yeah. Poll options suck. Saying he's outside top 15 is a defensible position. For what it's worth, i probably have him very close to that 15 range, give or take a few spots up/down.

I honestly never thought he would be this good in his career as he has been this season at his best, which has been every game other than the few before and after his missed games from an undisclosed upper body injury. He is the definition of a dominant player.

 

[authentic]

Haha, I was actually thinking the exact same thing yesterday. There's only select few players who give you the feel that every single time they're on the ice they are the best player on the ice. Matthews is one of those. Even though Kucherov (for example) has been better than Matthews this year I still feel that Matthews will end up being the better player very shortly.

I feel like I'm lying to myself or just trying to play it really safe when I say he's not top 4-5 or arguably the best many nights. The truth will set me free!

 

[authentic]

About Kucherov, he is a purely better offensive player by just a bit, overall Matthews is better IMO.

 

[Plural]

I feel like I'm lying to myself or just trying to play it really safe when I say he's not top 4-5 or arguably the best many nights. The truth will set me free!

If we're going purely by eye test Matthews really comes close to the title for the best (although some of the magic between Stammer and Kuch has been visually even more impressive IMO) and at this point of his career we're simply waiting for his resume to fill up. It takes time to get the recognition as it should. Guys like Crosby, Stamkos or even OV (who's not better than Matthews but just a name I dropped) worked for years to gain the reputation and recognition and I expect the same from the new guys coming in. But the line between the best players is so thin that it's not even a line.

 

[X66]

May sound biased to some but this sums it up pretty easily. Even last night against McDavid I wasn't that worried with Matthews on the ice. He broke up a number of McDavid's plays and got the better of him. He can go head to head with anyone and I feel comfortable. The amount of chances he creates for himself and his linemates combined with the amount of chances he prevents is arguably the best. I strongly suspect he may be the most impactful player in the world this season when he's playing his best.

This exactly it.

It doesn't matter who is on the other team, Crosby/McDavid etc, Matthews is going to get a boat load of chances to score, just like they will.

 

[Plural]

About Kucherov, he is a purely better offensive player by just a bit, overall Matthews is better IMO.

To be honest, I think the difference has been more than just a bit. Matthews definitely is more complete player though so I get your point.

 

[Hunter368]

Misleading thread title. I opened it thinking where is AM ranked as a centre in the nhl top 3, top 5, top 10, top 15.......then I read OP and it stated “player” not centre. Options are not complete, too few options. Not sure if he’s a top 15 player in the world.....That’s being pretty optimistic imo, but I would need to look at complete player list to be fair. He’s a top 15 centre in the nhl yes, don’t think he’s a top 15 player at this point. So I can’t vote in this poll, not enough options. Poorly constructed poll made to influence the results clearly.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Bolded =

Plus goalies which how can you even compare them?

Nevermind several very debatable guys in there, especially when looking at this season. However in no world are the bolded better, and there really isn't an argument. Matthews is a similar offensive player as them with a much more complete game.

Bolded = major , for real.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Probably more appropriate to create this sort of a thread this time next year. He's among the best but I'd say more people would be comfortable saying that with a bit more of a pedigree. So far he's playing up against some of the toughest competition, and he's got the 2nd highest expected +/- in the league at the moment, pretty ridiculous stuff.

90+ point may still be on the table for him despite the missed games.

 

[authentic]

To be honest, I think the difference has been more than just a bit. Matthews definitely is more complete player though so I get your point.

If not for Matthews injury and considering the chemistry between Kucherov and an equally good offensive linemate I don't think the difference is big. In other words their actual current offensive ability is not drastically different, IMO. Assuming good health for both the rest of the season you will see the gap in their per game production tighten up.

 

[authentic]

If we're going purely by eye test Matthews really comes close to the title for the best (although some of the magic between Stammer and Kuch has been visually even more impressive IMO) and at this point of his career we're simply waiting for his resume to fill up. It takes time to get the recognition as it should. Guys like Crosby, Stamkos or even OV (who's not better than Matthews but just a name I dropped) worked for years to gain the reputation and recognition and I expect the same from the new guys coming in. But the line between the best players is so thin that it's not even a line.

Yeah. I totally agree. If I didn't get to watch him every game I would feel I had to wait as well, even if I didn't doubt what others were saying. He is much like Ovechkin, Crosby and McDavid though to me where you can tell really early on how great they are. Whether he proves to be that type of player or not is another story but if he even maintained what he has shown this season that would be more than I bargained for when we first drafted him.

 

[BruinLVGA]

The point is he made a poll with silly options. There should be options that go as high up as 30, to be unbiased and open to a more proper discussion. Or simply an "outside top 15" option if you prefer.

As a habs fan - it would be similar to me making a poll asking "Is Carey Price first or 2nd best goalie in the world". I'm sure some people think both Bob and Holtby are better and would call me bias/unfair bc they don't have him top 2. Same idea here.

Also.

Kane is laughable? Same Kane who swept the awards 2 years ago and outscored Matthews by 20 points last year?
Or Benn - who scored as many points as Matthews last year (3 less games) while finishing top 2 for Ross the 2 prior years?
Tarasenko - 1 less goal, 6 more points last year. He's also ahead this year
Seguin - 3 more points last year
Bergeron - well a lot of people like him a lot, i'm not as high on him. But people talk about him very very highly

And goalies. Well - it's hard to compare goalies and players, but OP didn't say "top positional players". ie he included goalies too.

And my list of names is hardly exhaustive. I'm sure other people have different names they would include.
If you want to make bias polls to tout your own players, you should stick to the leafs section.

If you want to open up to a more broad discussion and get honnest opinions, don't make stupid poll options

If you had seen how he, along with Marchand, neutered Kucherov-Stamkos a couple of nights ago (to the tune of a 6 to 1 scoring chances ratio, while starting 7 times out of 9 in our D zone), you would know why "people talk so high of him" (and if you rely on other people's opinion to have yourself an opinion about him, why do you even put him on a list? Shouldn't you have your very own opinion?).
And he does this every time with Marchy... Vs any line... Night in, night out... And he can also put up points. That's why "they talk about him highly"...