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Where do you rank Ovechkin?

All-time ranking of Ovechkin

  • Total voters
    188
amnesiac

amnesiac

Space Oddity
Jul 10, 2010
13,718
7,506
Montreal
99
4
66
Howe
Crosby
Beliveau
Hull
Richard
Harvey
Jagr

Morenz
Hasek
Bourque
Lidstrom
Mikita
Messier
Ovie
Roy
Shore
Lafleur

Esposito
Sawchuk
Clarke
Cook
Plante
 
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Midnight Judges

Midnight Judges

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Feb 10, 2010
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daver said:
What is your argument for Belliveau being in that spot?

Only one Art Ross, won his Cups by being on a powerhouse club, not an all-time great goalscorer...
Click to expand...

I don't give Beliveau credit for cups nearly as much as most people. But he still has two Harts and was top 4 in Hart voting 9 times. That's a pretty good accomplishment (for reference that number is 6 for Crosby, 5 for Ovechkin). He also lead the NHL in goals scored twice.

Perhaps I have him too high.
 
MattySnipes

MattySnipes

Registered User
Jan 26, 2018
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'Mecca' of Hockey
Poll is vague, not sure if it's asking to rank him overall or as a goal scorer, either way i'll do both.

With the NHL having been around for over 10o years there have been a LOT of great players over the years. Just because of that, it's hard for me to place a player in the Top-10 without a Stanley Cup(s), even though it is a team trophy. Now...if he gets one then that changes things.

As of now...he's somewhere between 11-19 as a player.

Ranked in terms of goal-scoring he's easily in my Top-10, without a doubt.
 

daver

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Apr 4, 2003
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Midnight Judges said:
I don't give Beliveau credit for cups nearly as much as most people. But he still has two Harts and was top 4 in Hart voting 9 times. That's a pretty good accomplishment (for reference that number is 6 for Crosby, 5 for Ovechkin). He also lead the NHL in goals scored twice.

Perhaps I have him too high.
Click to expand...

Interesting that you use Top 4 for Hart voting. Why not Top 5 or Top 6? Do you think that Top 4 finishes in anything in a six team league is the same as a Top 4 finish in a 30 team league?

What credit do you give Belliveau for his Cups?
 
Midnight Judges

Midnight Judges

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daver said:
Interesting that you use Top 4 for Hart voting. Why not Top 5 or Top 6? Do you think that Top 4 finishes in anything in a six team league is the same as a Top 4 finish in a 30 team league?

What credit do you give Belliveau for his Cups?
Click to expand...

I use top 4 or top 3 or top2 or top 1 or top 5 or top 6 or any metric really. Depends on the player. 4 is a high water mark for Beliveau. 6 for Ovechkin (in which case he has 7). When comparing best players you have to look at their best metrics and go best on best IMO.

I don't give Beliveau a lot of credit for cups because he was on a dynasty and not even the greatest contributor in terms of points except for once out of ten. Also, I don't think cups from a 6 or even 12 team league compare very well to cups from a 31 team league.
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,262
14,897
amnesiac said:
99
4
66
Howe
Crosby
Beliveau
Hull
Richard
Harvey
Jagr

Morenz
Hasek
Bourque
Lidstrom
Mikita
Messier
Ovie
Roy
Shore
Lafleur

Esposito
Sawchuk
Clarke
Cook
Plante
Click to expand...

That's a really good, and overall sensible list. Makes a visual placement of Ovechkin easier.

I would definitely have Roy higher, and Shore and maybe even Plante. Flip side is i would have Messier lower. Lafleur - undecided. So I have Ovechkin moving down 3 ranks, than 1 up, and undecided for Lafleur so right around 20 or so
 
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bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,262
14,897
MattySnipes said:
Poll is vague, not sure if it's asking to rank him overall or as a goal scorer, either way i'll do both.

With the NHL having been around for over 10o years there have been a LOT of great players over the years. Just because of that, it's hard for me to place a player in the Top-10 without a Stanley Cup(s), even though it is a team trophy. Now...if he gets one then that changes things.

As of now...he's somewhere between 11-19 as a player.

Ranked in terms of goal-scoring he's easily in my Top-10, without a doubt.
Click to expand...

I think in terms of goal-scoring there is 0 argument to exclude Ovechkin from top 5 all time at this point. Top 10 seems too large.

You have Gretzky, Lemieux and Hull who can be argued above him. In fact i'd have him no lower than 4th. Richard maybe if you really like playoffs - but I still give Ovi the edge.
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,262
14,897
Midnight Judges said:
Fair enough.

Gretzky


Howe

Orr
Lemieux

Hull
Richard
Beliveau
Ovechkin
Jagr
Crosby
Click to expand...

There's a lot of things I could criticize on your list, such as exclusions of guys like Bourque, Harvey, Shore, Morenz. And that's before talking about the lack of any goalies in the top 10. If you include those almost "must have" guys, I think Ovechkin should fall quite a bit outside of the top 10.

but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt - it is your list - and it looks like you favor offense a lot.

I won't go into Crosby vs Ovechkin with you because you have a tendency to argue in such good faith and make so much common sense in those comparisons that I think i'll just pretend you're right and move on.

But....Ovechkin vs Jagr - why is Ovechkin above?

Jagr has:

Better playoffs (career for sure, but also peak since Ovi doesn't have much)
Better longevity (in fact Jagr's longevity is VERY VERY strong - as close to Howe territory as you can get imo, who you seem to value very high)
He's a bit low on hart trophies - but that's just because of Lemieux/Hasek. If you compare his seasons 1 by 1 to Ovechkin, and his dominance over the field (in seasons with Lemieux and without) - he's simply been better offensively than Ovechkin in more seasons. And without Lemieux he'd have as much/better hart placements than Ovi imo.
Both players had off years in their prime - but Ovechkin's were worst, and i think he also had more of them

I just don't see a case at all for Ovechkin for Jagr now. Maybe with enough longevity he can overtake him, but he's definitely not there today.
 
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The Winter Soldier

The Winter Soldier

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Apr 4, 2011
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I have seen Bossy, Hull, Lafleur, Neely, Kurri all play. And had Ovie played in the 80's. He would be right with these players. Maybe on top as goal scorers go, or maybe 2nd or 3rd. There is no doubt he is one of the best goal scorers in the history of the game. 600 goals in this era of hockey is a great accomplishment.
 
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Midnight Judges

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Feb 10, 2010
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Mean Gene said:
He was, but far from Mario’s dominance.

Mario carried a Franchise by himself. No wonder why he had so many back injuries...
Click to expand...

lol peak Lemieux couldn't get his team into the playoffs back when 16 out of 21 teams made it in. Lemieux needed 5-6 other future hall of famers to win a cup.

He absolutely did not carry his team.

That's not a knock on him though, no single player can carry a hockey team. It has never been done by any player. Not Gretzky, not Orr, nobody.
 
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Nadal On Clay

Nadal On Clay

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Midnight Judges said:
lol peak Lemieux couldn't get his team into the playoffs back when 16 out of 21 teams made it in. Lemieux needed 5-6 other future hall of famers to win a cup.

He absolutely did not carry his team.

That's not a knock on him though, no single player can carry a hockey team. It has never been done by any player. Not Gretzky, not Orr, nobody.
Click to expand...

1) Without Lemieux, Penguins are not existing today

2) Who were those HOFs??
 
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