Salary Cap: Wet Hot Canadian Sutter (Is No More)

[steveg]

Am I allowed to express doubt in the severity of Kunitz's "iron issues" and the fatigue that resulted from it considering his icetime stayed more or less exactly the same (which is to say a lot) after it was announced?

Kunitz is really getting some admirable treatment around here, lately. I think people need to go back and watch some film.

I'm with you, BlindWilly. I'm not really buying that as having been a major issue with respect to his play, either. It's possible, but I'm skeptical; I'm simply giving it the benefit of the doubt for now. I do believe, though, that WHATEVER the case, if his play is not up to top-6 levels, he won't be in the top 6. I really do think this year, for the first time in a LONG time, the team has the horses to "do what's right," with respect to the top 6.

There's really only one spot open, with -- in my mind -- several possibilities to fill it. May the best man, win...

 

[Jacob]

Am I allowed to express doubt in the severity of Kunitz's "iron issues" and the fatigue that resulted from it considering his icetime stayed more or less exactly the same (which is to say a lot) after it was announced?

Kunitz is really getting some admirable treatment around here, lately. I think people need to go back and watch some film.

Let me also toss my hat in the "major doubts about the coach" ring. FWIW.

I don't think any poster here gives much legitimacy to the iron deficiency thing. Not that the team made it up, but that it probably had little or nothing to do with his play. I think the doctors were just hoping for a placebo affect.

But it'd be better if we knew what his iron levels were, what they had been in the past as a baseline and how his levels responded to supplements. So it's hard to say for certain.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

They have more or less most of what they need to do what is right by the top six. The big question is whether or not they'll make it unnecessarily hard on themselves because of hurt feelings, trying to be too cute or whatever else. MJ's roster decisions, even when healthy, didn't inspire much confidence last season. I can at least buy that he'll work diligently on his system and return to a brand of hockey more appropriate for this roster... but there is still that elephant in the room. Any coach who thinks it's just fine to play his second best player out of position with a goober like Sutter for stretches of time (multiple times a year) for no GOOD reason is probably suspect. And that's just one example.

I don't think any poster here gives much legitimacy to the iron deficiency thing. Not that the team made it up, but that it probably had little or nothing to do with his play. I think the doctors were just hoping for a placebo affect.

But it'd be better if we knew what his iron levels were, what they had been in the past as a baseline and how his levels responded to supplements. So it's hard to say for certain.

Fair enough. That makes good sense.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

You don't need to convince me of other players' merits over Kunitz. The problem's that he's entrenched regardless of his relative worth.

I'm muttering crazily to myself as much as to you

But you know what? I can tolerate Kunitz on any line, but if they trot him out instead of PH or Kessel on the 1st PP, that's when I lose it.

 

[mpp9]

Exactly how I see it. IF he indeed manages to make it difficult on Perron and Plotnikov, then it's nothing but a win-win for both us, and the team...

I would hope Perron is in the top 6 no matter what b/c he fills a need on the line Kessel's not on. A genuine creator of offense.

I think Kunitz battling with Plotnikov for the last spot would be a good thing. Key word, battling. From what I've read and seen of Plotnikov, work ethic will be the last thing to worry about.

 

[steveg]

I would hope Perron is in the top 6 no matter what b/c he fills a need on the line Kessel's not on. A genuine creator of offense.

I think Kunitz battling with Plotnikov for the last spot would be a good thing. Key word, battling. From what I've read and seen of Plotnikov, work ethic will be the last thing to worry about.

Good to hear, about Plotnikov. I know literally nothing about him, other than rumors that Geno wanted him here.

As for my statement on Perron -- I agree with you that I want Perron in the top-6, period. He absolutely fills a need with whatever center does not have Kessel. I did not mean that to say I see Perron as being "iffy" as a top-6 winger or anything of the sort. All I was saying was, IF somehow (and I see this as EXTREMELY unlikely) Kunitz is somehow playing so well as to be out-playing Perron, then that's nothing but good for the team -- i.e. my "win-win" comment. I FULLY expect Perron to be in the top 6, and to do quite well there. His creativity and skill are indeed -- as you said -- a welcome addition to whichever line does not have Kessel...

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

It may have been legitimate, but I don't think it was ongoing. I'm not sure it was reported as an ongoing thing either, rather something that had been noticed and treated. I also believe his ice time was partly due to lack of options and partly due to hoping he, or at least his production, would return to previous levels. Needless to say he never got there.

 

[Saints11]

GIVEN that it seems like it will be tough to move CK, and IF some portion of Kunitz' issues last season were indeed the iron thing, and the foot, such that he still has a little "game" left, then I couldn't agree with you more -- I really like the idea of a Kunitz-Sutter-Bennett third line. Seems like one that should be decent both defensively and offensively...

When has Sutter ever elevated the play of his wings? Asking for a lot here.

 

[Riptide]

You don't need to convince me of other players' merits over Kunitz. The problem's that he's entrenched regardless of his relative worth.

I'm not so sure of that. Last season (and before) absolutely. But a large part of that was A he was a better player then last season, and B we had absolutely no options to push him down. This year the latter isn't the case, and there's no guarantee that he's good enough to stay entrenched there.

 

[Saints11]

Good to hear, about Plotnikov. I know literally nothing about him, other than rumors that Geno wanted him here.

As for my statement on Perron -- I agree with you that I want Perron in the top-6, period. He absolutely fills a need with whatever center does not have Kessel. I did not mean that to say I see Perron as being "iffy" as a top-6 winger or anything of the sort. All I was saying was, IF somehow (and I see this as EXTREMELY unlikely) Kunitz is somehow playing so well as to be out-playing Perron, then that's nothing but good for the team -- i.e. my "win-win" comment. I FULLY expect Perron to be in the top 6, and to do quite well there. His creativity and skill are indeed -- as you said -- a welcome addition to whichever line does not have Kessel...

Not only Geno, but also Sid pushed for him.

 

[Penguinator]

Not only Geno, but also Sid pushed for him.

...and like 15 other teams. A good reason to believe he'll do well having been so heavily scouted. That & his game style which looks more adapted to the NHL than most Euros.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm not so sure of that. Last season (and before) absolutely. But a large part of that was A he was a better player then last season, and B we had absolutely no options to push him down. This year the latter isn't the case, and there's no guarantee that he's good enough to stay entrenched there.

We did have other options, Rip. We simply decided not to use them and keep going with what clearly wasn't working.

Remember, Perron got sent down to the 3rd line while Kunitz was still seeing nothing but top 6 and 1st unit PP duty. Kunitz, the man with one ES goal in 2015 beside the two best centers in the world.

 

[steveg]

When has Sutter ever elevated the play of his wings? Asking for a lot here.

I'm not expecting Sutter to elevate the play of his wings. What I'm thinking is, Sutter is good defensively, decent at carrying the puck, and good off the rush. Kunitz -- if he has any game left -- can provide a little bit of his gritty game, with a scoring touch, for the line. Meanwhile, BB can provide some playmaking (his strength) which is clearly NOT the strength of Sutter. It's more of a "sum of the parts" that I see making it a good line, not "Sutter raising the play of his linemates."

Not only Geno, but also Sid pushed for him.

Really? I hadn't heard that. Encouraging...

...and like 15 other teams. A good reason to believe he'll do well having been so heavily scouted. That & his game style which looks more adapted to the NHL than most Euros.

Other teams, also? I hadn't heard that, either. I just thought he was a guy that Geno knew, played with a bit at Worlds, and then suggested he might add some depth for the Pens at wing. Nothing more than that, was I aware of. Maybe that, being the sum-total of what I thought of him, is under-selling him just a bit? Again, encouraging...

 

[steveg]

We did have other options, Rip. We simply decided not to use them and keep going with what clearly wasn't working.

Remember, Perron got sent down to the 3rd line while Kunitz was still seeing nothing but top 6 and 1st unit PP duty. Kunitz, the man with one ES goal in 2015 beside the two best centers in the world.

I agree -- Kunitz clearly wasn't working. His production was abysmal -- almost as bad as the "eye test" on him was.

BUT, that said, I'm not really sure what other options there were -- at least for large portions of the time. Seems like some history being revised. Perron struggled mightily to produce after his first couple of weeks here, Dupuis was injured, as were Hornqvist and Comeau for awhile; so was BB for the first half of the season -- which obviously contributed to his struggles when he finally did come back. Essentially all of our wings with top-6 potential last year were either injured for long stretches, mired in major slumps, or BOTH, in many cases (with the possible exception of Downie). In fact, I seem to recall just about everyone who had a pulse being tried as a top-6 wing last year.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I agree -- Kunitz clearly wasn't working. His production was abysmal -- almost as bad as the "eye test" on him was.

BUT, that said, I'm not really sure what other options there were -- at least for large portions of the time. Seems like some history being revised. Perron struggled mightily to produce after his first couple of weeks here, Dupuis was injured, as were Hornqvist and Comeau for awhile; so was BB for the first half of the season -- which obviously contributed to his struggles when he finally did come back. Essentially all of our wings with top-6 potential last year were either injured for long stretches, mired in major slumps, or BOTH, in many cases (with the possible exception of Downie). In fact, I seem to recall just about everyone who had a pulse being tried as a top-6 wing last year.

But not at the expense of Kunitz outside of a couple games mid-season. None of our options were ideal, but any number of them should've been given a chance over Kunitz.

They weren't.

Instead, the Pens operated as a union last year and based their decisions on tenure. It was a disgrace. We can only hope the team learned their lesson.

 

[M0NTY26]

Remember when Bylsma gave that interview where he said he asked Sid who he wanted to play with and Sid said Kunitz and Duper?

Everyones so quick to blame the coaches but maybe it's Crosby who's to blame. Sure, a coach should have the gall to say no when the time is present, but for all we know Sid is running that ship.

 

[drpepper]

Remember when Bylsma gave that interview where he said he asked Sid who he wanted to play with and Sid said Kunitz and Duper?

Everyones so quick to blame the coaches but maybe it's Crosby who's to blame. Sure, a coach should have the gall to say no when the time is present, but for all we know Sid is running that ship.

Nope. Do you have a link?

Because otherwise this sounds like all the other stuff that's thrown around about Crosby choosing his own linemates which never includes direct quotes or anything remotely substantial.

 

[Penguinator]

Even if was true, i'm not sure Crosby is so hot about Kunitz anymore...

As for Duper, he had a great start before the blood clot so who knows?

 

[Beauner]

Even Crosby can't be stupid enough to believe his "chemistry" with those two would be better than if he was with any combo of Kessel(!), Perron or Hornqvist.

 

[Penguinator]

Well... If we see Duper with Crosby i might think Sid would have pulled some strings because i remember MJ or JR saying Duper would have to adapt to a different role & i think he did mention putting him on a 3rd line.

 

[Riptide]

Remember when Bylsma gave that interview where he said he asked Sid who he wanted to play with and Sid said Kunitz and Duper?

Everyones so quick to blame the coaches but maybe it's Crosby who's to blame. Sure, a coach should have the gall to say no when the time is present, but for all we know Sid is running that ship.

While I'm not going to dispute that Crosby likely has a lot of pull in a lot of things... I'm not really convinced that that response is anything but the politically correct one by Sid. How would Dupuis and Kunitz feel if Crosby said he wanted to play with Neal and whomever? I suspect that if he was asked who he wanted to play with this year, he'd say something about how playing with Hornqvist seemed to work or was fun, then give some generic answer about how we have a bunch of good options this year and he's excited to see how it pans out in camp or mid season.

Do I think at times Crosby privately wonders when he'd get someone like Neal to play with? Absolutely. And probably frequently whenever Kunitz or Dupuis miss a setup he gives them. But I can't imagine him ever saying he's not happy with his current linemates - regardless of who they are. That's not the image he projects publicly. And even if he told Bylsma he wasn't happy with those two, I doubt DB would have relayed that to the media. I think the strongest thing he'd say privately to Dan would be asking about switching things up if they weren't working. However for the most part those 3 (Crosby, Kunitz and Dupuis) had a lot of regular season success. To the point that while we now have better options, I question whether another trio will out produce what those three were doing in the regular season.

 

[Riptide]

Because otherwise this sounds like all the other stuff that's thrown around about Crosby choosing his own linemates which never includes direct quotes or anything remotely substantial.

Even if it did, I wouldn't really put a lot of faith in what he's saying. It's like someone telling their wife/gf that of course those jeans don't make their ass look fat. While that may not be the entire truth, saying anything else may not be the smartest thing to do.

 

[Riptide]

Well... If we see Duper with Crosby i might think Sid would have pulled some strings because i remember MJ or JR saying Duper would have to adapt to a different role & i think he did mention putting him on a 3rd line.

If Dupuis has his speed back, a line of Dupuis - Crosby - Kessel could be a very effective one, and honestly not something that would really bother me - as long as it's not something that's set in stone. If it's working, great. But if not, then it needs to be changed up. My issue with the KCD thing was never Dupuis or Kunitz individually. Both players were fine as someone who could contribute to that line. My issue to them was that they were paired together, to the point that neither could be counted on to make a play like Kessel/Perron/Bennett can (to various degree's), to help draw coverage away from Crosby. Just like the issue with JJ/Geno/Neal wasn't JJ/Neal, but them paired together.

I would have much rather seen Neal - Crosby - Dupuis and Kunitz - Malkin - JJ, or some variation thereof, then what we saw for the last couple of seasons.

 

[BustaKapanen]

Nope. Do you have a link?

Because otherwise this sounds like all the other stuff that's thrown around about Crosby choosing his own linemates which never includes direct quotes or anything remotely substantial.

This notion is all driven by his (probably) tongue and cheek comments about Dupuis and kunitz after Iginla was aquired. What people fail to realize/mention most the time is, Sid's 1. A creature of habit even moreso than most hockey players. 2 he's just genuinely a good dude and isn't going to say anything negative about them. The guy seems to go out of his way to make new players feel comfortable. Remember all the photos circulating of him at dinner with morrow and Murray. He freaking went outside of Calgary's arena to greet Lee effin stempniak and carried in his sticks. Recently he called kessel and even sprong when he got drafted, as soon as they were penguins. He goes above and beyond the call of duty when it comes to that stuff in terms of being a captain.

Sorry got alil off topic, those are just some of things I cite when he's referred to as a bad captain, iritates me alil. The tie in here is the guy just wouldn't openly say yea can't wait to play with Iginla instead of dupuis basically. Astonishes me that a guy who's so politically correct almost to a fault at times,that people pull these underlying messages out of nowhere from his comments. Imo he's just not the type of guy to cut dupuis legs off to make Iginla seem taller. It was up to bylsma to make the right decisions and he failed. Now this notion exists he's spearheading kuni on his line campaign, apparently those people missed him being pretty candid on the bench and frustrated with some of kunitz decisions in the Rangers series. I'm pretty sure he wants to win more than anyone, if kunitz or no kunitz on his line present that opportunity. He'll be fine with either.

 

[drpepper]

This notion is all driven by his (probably) tongue and cheek comments about Dupuis and kunitz after Iginla was aquired. What people fail to realize/mention most the time is, Sid's 1. A creature of habit even moreso than most hockey players. 2 he's just genuinely a good dude and isn't going to say anything negative about them. The guy seems to go out of his way to make new players feel comfortable. Remember all the photos circulating of him at dinner with morrow and Murray. He freaking went outside of Calgary's arena to greet Lee effin stempniak and carried in his sticks. Recently he called kessel and even sprong when he got drafted, as soon as they were penguins. He goes above and beyond the call of duty when it comes to that stuff in terms of being a captain.

Sorry got alil off topic, those are just some of things I cite when he's referred to as a bad captain, iritates me alil. The tie in here is the guy just wouldn't openly say yea can't wait to play with Iginla instead of dupuis basically. Astonishes me that a guy who's so politically correct almost to a fault at times,that people pull these underlying messages out of nowhere from his comments. Imo he's just not the type of guy to cut dupuis legs off to make Iginla seem taller. It was up to bylsma to make the right decisions and he failed. Now this notion exists he's spearheading kuni on his line campaign, apparently those people missed him being pretty candid on the bench and frustrated with some of kunitz decisions in the Rangers series. I'm pretty sure he wants to win more than anyone, if kunitz or no kunitz on his line present that opportunity. He'll be fine with either.

I don't disagree.

I don't think Crosby's public statements are usually that specific. He'll say he likes playing with a player or likes playing with a player's attribute (speed, right-hand shot, etc).

A lot of the Crosby picks his linemates, etc rumors seem to have come out of the Trib group (previously Rossi, previously Yohe, and now Mackey). Without any specifics of how they got that information, sources or quotes, I have very little faith in anything that group reports.