GDT: VGK @ Wings

[Run the Jewels]

no one is helping us win.

Kinda damning for an organization that kept tons of overpaid vets around to teach the young guys.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You sell it as auditioning players for the following season. Everyone knows what they are getting from the vets, but this is the opportunity for kids to cement prominent roles on next season's team. A number of them have been shielded throughout the season but not it's time to put them out there a bit and let them try to run with it.

At some point I think the more we shield guys and find excuses to not lean on them and to expect less from them the less they will deliver.

Larkin, Mantha, AA and Bertuzzi are all top 10 in icetime among our forwards. Larkin is #1 and Mantha is top 5. AA's icetime is as inconsistent as his play is, and Bert gets about what he deserves (3rd line minutes on average).

I don't think anyone is shielded.

This "play the kids" argument is some kind of permanent state of mind on this site. No kid is getting shafted here. And we have almost nothing to earn by playing the kids more. What's the best case scenario? That they can handle it and we play ourselves into a #12 draft pick and bigger contracts for our RFA kids? Yay...

 

[Winger98]

Larkin, Mantha, AA and Bertuzzi are all top 10 in icetime among our forwards. Larkin is #1 and Mantha is top 5. AA's icetime is as inconsistent as his play is, and Bert gets about what he deserves (3rd line minutes on average).

I don't think anyone is shielded.

This "play the kids" argument is some kind of permanent state of mind on this site. No kid is getting shafted here. And we have almost nothing to earn by playing the kids more. What's the best case scenario? That they can handle it and we play ourselves into a #12 draft pick and bigger contracts for our RFA kids? Yay...

Would you rather have them not play well? I don't think we should let concerns over paying guys for playing well dictate their ice time. We should be happy if these kids take their opportunity and run with it. There are 15 games left in the season, I'm not too concerned of this team playing themselves out of the draft at this point.

Credit to Blash for upping Bertuzzi's minutes the past few games, but Athanasiou's minutes aren't inconsistant, they are just low - especially at this point in the season where there is nothing meaningful to play for other than for next season. Up his minutes and ride him. Play Svechnikov 15 minutes insead of 9. Call up Hronek and give him a regular shift on the blueline in place of Jensen or just sit Kronwall/Green/Daley and give Jensen and XO much bigger minutes to close out the season.

I think the experience could be especially eye opening for some of these guys considering who the Wings are playing most nights to close out the season - teams looking to jockey for their own playoff positions and looking to win some games instead of playing out the string.

 

[izlez]

Does time spent adjusting your helmet count in your "time on ice" if you are technically on the ice while you are doing it?

Svechnikov may have been on the ice a lot more than we actually realize. I'm gonna have to look into how the official scorers count that.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Ill have to look back at goal 3 to see Mantha's blatant mistake

I'm watching the highlights now. He was to blame on the second goal as well.

I can somewhat chalk up the over stickhandling and not using teammates to a rookie mistake. What's hard to excuse is his him not skating back full speed trying to make up for his mistake once he turns it over. Instead he stands by the bench and watches.

Oof, and that 3rd goal is all Mantha too. "Poke and hope" for sure. That looked like something you'd try screwing around before practice but not in a game. Some of this is to be expected. There's young guys playing. It's a team that's losing a lot of games. But those Mantha mistakes are a bad, bad sign.

I'm no coach but I'd go over video with him and give him a game to prove he can turn it around. If he's not busting his ass out there then make him healthy scratch the game after that.

Mantha's attitude seems to be that the season is out of reach may as well try and get some goals when his attitude should be that he needs to learn how to be an every day player in this league and the rest of this season is a rare opportunity where he can learn to do it.

 

[turkleton85]

I'm watching the highlights now. He was to blame on the second goal as well.

I can somewhat chalk up the over stickhandling and not using teammates to a rookie mistake. What's hard to excuse is his him not skating back full speed trying to make up for his mistake once he turns it over. Instead he stands by the bench and watches.

Oof, and that 3rd goal is all Mantha too. "Poke and hope" for sure. That looked like something you'd try screwing around before practice but not in a game. Some of this is to be expected. There's young guys playing. It's a team that's losing a lot of games. But those Mantha mistakes are a bad, bad sign.

I'm no coach but I'd go over video with him and give him a game to prove he can turn it around. If he's not busting his ass out there then make him healthy scratch the game after that.

Mantha's attitude seems to be that the season is out of reach may as well try and get some goals when his attitude should be that he needs to learn how to be an every day player in this league and the rest of this season is a rare opportunity where he can learn to do it.

now that the season is almost over and he has 1 1 /2 seasons under his belt as a 23 year old, we see what he ultimatley is. A big talented winger who has a lot of tools, but no motor and no desire to be as good as he can be. A frustrating, and sometimes exciting player. If he only had larkins drive

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

One more thing about Zetterberg.

Isn't that criticism a little tough considering what Kronwall did on the first goal?

Not really.

There's a difference between making a low percentage pass and not being able to recover when it gets cut off. What Mantha did was much worse. He tried a pokecheck in hopes he'd get a break up ice instead of covering his man.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

How many games will Green be benched for his lazy uninspired play?

He won't. And as frustrating as Green can be to watch at times I kind of understand why.

He's a 32 year old defenseman who's been in the league over a decade. His uninspired play is the price you pay for his positive attributes. And even with his half ass play he's still better than most guys on the blueline for the Wings.

Calling him out for that kind of play when you signed him knowing he does that is sort of pointless.

 

[Redder Winger]

Not really.

There's a difference between making a low percentage pass and not being able to recover when it gets cut off. What Mantha did was much worse. He tried a pokecheck in hopes he'd get a break up ice instead of covering his man.

I play a lot of defense.
Putting it on the tape of the opponent and then getting burned on a 2-on-1 goal is as bad or worse, to me, as what Mantha did.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Would you rather have them not play well? I don't think we should let concerns over paying guys for playing well dictate their ice time. We should be happy if these kids take their opportunity and run with it. There are 15 games left in the season, I'm not too concerned of this team playing themselves out of the draft at this point.

Credit to Blash for upping Bertuzzi's minutes the past few games, but Athanasiou's minutes aren't inconsistant, they are just low - especially at this point in the season where there is nothing meaningful to play for other than for next season. Up his minutes and ride him. Play Svechnikov 15 minutes insead of 9. Call up Hronek and give him a regular shift on the blueline in place of Jensen or just sit Kronwall/Green/Daley and give Jensen and XO much bigger minutes to close out the season.

I think the experience could be especially eye opening for some of these guys considering who the Wings are playing most nights to close out the season - teams looking to jockey for their own playoff positions and looking to win some games instead of playing out the string.

I don't really know how you justify upping AA's minutes. I mean the only forwards on the team that are getting significantly more icetime at ES are Larkin, Z, Nyquist and Mantha. Tatar played more as well and sure, it looks like Bert is taking a big part of that icetime and maybe AA would have deserved that a little more. But on the other hand AA can play 3rd line C which Bert can't. Helm gets about 15 seconds more than AA which maybe he shouldn't, but it's seconds. Who cares.

Svechnikov can barely handle the AHL this year and we should give him 15 minutes in his 2nd NHL game...? Okay... Hronek? Should get a callup. Not sure he is ready physically or defensively. But should get a look. The sooner these kids get NHL time and become veterans the sooner we can start disliking them and cry for the next wave of kids to get icetime.

 

[Redder Winger]

I don't really know how you justify upping AA's minutes.e.

Lots of ways.
1) AA has been a big producer when he plays more minutes.
2) The team wins when he plays more minutes.
3) He leads the team on points/60
4) He's among the leaders in goals/60
5) We're and old team out of the playoffs. There is no "now." It's about the future.

And by the way, Helm can be the 3C and is probably better suited for it anyway.

 

[MikeyDee]

Not really.

There's a difference between making a low percentage pass and not being able to recover when it gets cut off. What Mantha did was much worse. He tried a pokecheck in hopes he'd get a break up ice instead of covering his man.

I’ll add that what Kron did was uncharacteristic and Mantha’s mistake was more characteristic.

 

[Winger98]

I don't really know how you justify upping AA's minutes. I mean the only forwards on the team that are getting significantly more icetime at ES are Larkin, Z, Nyquist and Mantha. Tatar played more as well and sure, it looks like Bert is taking a big part of that icetime and maybe AA would have deserved that a little more. But on the other hand AA can play 3rd line C which Bert can't. Helm gets about 15 seconds more than AA which maybe he shouldn't, but it's seconds. Who cares.

Svechnikov can barely handle the AHL this year and we should give him 15 minutes in his 2nd NHL game...? Okay... Hronek? Should get a callup. Not sure he is ready physically or defensively. But should get a look. The sooner these kids get NHL time and become veterans the sooner we can start disliking them and cry for the next wave of kids to get icetime.

That's needlessly pessimistic.

Over the past 8 games, AA has averaged under 12 minutes at ES, and 13.42 total. Helm's at 13.34 ES and 15.57 total. If I shrink the sample to the last five games both players TOIs go down but those gaps remain roughly the same, while Bert's numbers take a big hike. In both samples AA is 9th among the forwards in ES and total TOI.

We have nothing to lose by riding these kids harder to end the season. They get a better idea of what's required of players with more responsibilities and management gets a better look at if we even want to keep some of these guys around.

 

[Frk It]

The sooner these kids get NHL time and become veterans the sooner we can start disliking them and cry for the next wave of kids to get icetime.

Only if we're not drafting as well as we should be.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I play a lot of defense.
Putting it on the tape of the opponent and then getting burned on a 2-on-1 goal is as bad or worse, to me, as what Mantha did.

How?

One is a bad pay by an experienced defenseman. It happens. The other is a half assed, lazy play looking for a breakaway and total lack of effort.

 

[jkutswings]

Either a player should be in the lineup and in a role suited for his skill set, or not.

If Mantha or AA or anybody else is playing, play them as many minutes as the ceiling of their game demands. And if they demonstrate a lack of effort or other unforgivable no-no, then make them a healthy scratch for the next game, instead of all this jockeying with ice time nonsense.

Blashill seems to have settled for half measures on this, which just frustrates both camps (vets and kids).

 

[Redder Winger]

How?

One is a bad pay by an experienced defenseman. It happens. The other is a half assed, lazy play looking for a breakaway and total lack of effort.

A pass on to the tape of the other team that leads to a 2-on-1 and a goal against is the very definition of a half-assed, lazy play.

In both cases, players made poor assessments and executed poorly.

 

[Redder Winger]

Either a player should be in the lineup and in a role suited for his skill set, or not.

If Mantha or AA or anybody else is playing, play them as many minutes as the ceiling of their game demands. And if they demonstrate a lack of effort or other unforgivable no-no, then make them a healthy scratch for the next game, instead of all this jockeying with ice time nonsense.

Blashill seems to have settled for half measures on this, which just frustrates both camps (vets and kids).

That's kind of how I see it.
Sit the kid out completely if they suck.

But IMO, this needs to go for veterans too.

You want to send a message, show the kids what accountability means.

Because all they're learning now is that if you can become a veteran, once you get there, it's a f***ing free ride.

 

[Redder Winger]

I’ll add that what Kron did was uncharacteristic and Mantha’s mistake was more characteristic.

Except that's not true. Kronwall has been prone to gaffes his entire career.

 

[Redder Winger]

The sooner these kids get NHL time and become veterans the sooner we can start disliking them and cry for the next wave of kids to get icetime.

If they get there, they suck and they aren't getting job done, of course.

If they're good players and they're helping us do positive things, they'll be embraced.

That's one reason I'm opposed to any 8 year deals for these kids - Larkin included.

Once you're locked into long-term, big money, the expectations come with it.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

A pass on to the tape of the other team that leads to a 2-on-1 and a goal against is the very definition of a half-assed, lazy play.

In both cases, players made poor assessments and executed poorly.

I disagree.

He's playing it off the boards there in what's not a great pass but it's still usually a fairly safe play to put it to the boards in neutral ice. The Vegas player also makes a good play in cutting it off. If Kronwall was doing that all the time it would be an issue but he doesn't. The biggest issue with Kronner is his lack of mobility because of his knees.

Mantha made a poor assessment, executed poorly, and worst of all quit on the play.

 

[Redder Winger]

I disagree.

He's playing it off the boards there in what's not a great pass but it's still usually a fairly safe play to put it to the boards in neutral ice. The Vegas player also makes a good play in cutting it off. If Kronwall was doing that all the time it would be an issue but he doesn't. The biggest issue with Kronner is his lack of mobility because of his knees.

Mantha made a poor assessment, executed poorly, and worst of all quit on the play.

The biggest deal is it puts it on the guy's stick.
He knows his limitations, mobility wise.
Kronwall has always been prone to the big giveaway.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Except that's not true. Kronwall has been prone to gaffes his entire career.

What??

That's never been a criticism of Kronwall in his career. Maybe you're thinking of Smith?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

The biggest deal is it puts it on the guy's stick.
He knows his limitations, mobility wise.
Kronwall has always been prone to the big giveaway.

Agree to disagree I guess.

We have very different perceptions of the level of the mistakes last night. And apparently of Kronwall's career.

 

[Redder Winger]

Agree to disagree I guess.

We have very different perceptions of the level of the mistakes last night. And apparently of Kronwall's career.

Bottom line is, this team is critical of Mantha and AA.

I don't know how you watch last night's game and decide only one guy needs criticism in the press.

Accountability doesn't matter for veterans.