Player Discussion: Vesalainen Thread

[ecolad]

Pretty much what I see as well. Its a product of not having a spot for him in the top 6 so he needs to be all out defense in our bottom 6. I hate the way the org views things as top 6 vs bottom 6. We need to look at it as top 9 and a fourth line.

Yeah, I wonder why the org wouldn't develop him normally - give him opportunity to improve his natural offensive strengths , while learning/incorporatingt basic defensive requirements? See exactly what he could develop into as a balanced winger, and if he wasn't good enough to play on our top 9. trade him for something we needed? This would have been much fairer to Ves, and, would allow the org to get fair value for him as an asset as well.

 

[surixon]

Yeah, I wonder why the org wouldn't develop him normally - give him opportunity to improve his natural offensive strengths , while learning/incorporatingt basic defensive requirements? See exactly what he could develop into as a balanced winger, and if he wasn't good enough to play on our top 9. trade him for something we needed? This would have been much fairer to Ves, and, would allow the org to get fair value for him as an asset as well.

To be fair that seems to be how they started with him. He was put in offensive minutes in the AHL and allowed to try to play his game the first few years. It was really onlybthe last year and a half they completely shifted gears with him.

I remember training camp a couple of years ago that he came in and was confident with the puck and was going at players. We don't see any of that any longer. I think there is still something there if he can grow out from his defensive base. Hopefully a new coach comes in and has more of an open mind on systems, roles and deployment.

But I agree with your general philosophy, if you don't envision a spot for the player then move them while they still have value instead of trying to change course and groom them into a player they won't easily transition to.

I sometimes wonder if JoMo's near instant transformation into a defensive minded dmen to crack the roster didn't put some unrealistic thoughts into this orgs heads on converting players to different player types.

 

[JetsFan815]

Yeah, I'm with you on this. But I still can't help feeling that the Ves we see on the ice is a direct product of a somewhat mis-guided development program implemented by the organization - one which made a very early decision that it would get most value from Ves by trying to totally re-shape him to be a dedicated low-risk checking winger with defense exclusively on his mind. Methinks he has concentrated so hard on becoming this type of specialist player that he no longer even contemplates making any offensive moves on the ice which would show his natural puck handling/shooting skills. He is literally over-thinking every move he makes on the ice - which of course puts him into a slower read and react mode. So sad to watch - but like you I continue to watch for signs that Ves can adjust back to balanced hockey.[ Playing him with a C other than Lowry might facilitate this occuring as well]

He has 3 points in 53 games. Perhaps an alternative explanation is that he doesn't have the skill at the NHL level rather than trying to come up with a contorted story about how it's the org's fault. Other players with talent have been put in similar bottom-6 situations and found a way to produce (Copp/Lowry/Tanev/Armia/Perreault/Appleton and even this season Svechnikov).

For a lot of bottom-6 players you can watch them on the ice and see the one thing in their game that might make them an NHL'r one day (doesn't mean it will, just that if they make it as an NHL regular it would be on the back of this one skill)- for Lowry it was the size and physicality, for Copp it was the defensive smarts, for Tanev it was the speed and him running around like the tasmanian devil on the ice, for Armia it was the above average hands and an elite defensive stick, even for a guy like Harkins who hasn't established himself in that role you can see that if he is to become an NHL regular, it will be due to his speed and ability to create chaos. When I look at KV I can't come up with any one thing that stands out in that way thus far, supposedly he has a shot but he hasn't been able to get open enough to be able to use it.

 

[ecolad]

He has 3 points in 53 games. Perhaps an alternative explanation is that he doesn't have the skill at the NHL level rather than trying to come up with a contorted story about how it's the org's fault. Other players with talent have been put in similar bottom-6 situations and found a way to produce (Copp/Lowry/Tanev/Armia/Perreault/Appleton and even this season Svechnikov).

For a lot of bottom-6 players you can watch them on the ice and see the one thing in their game that might make them an NHL'r one day (doesn't mean it will, just that if they make it as an NHL regular it would be on the back of this one skill)- for Lowry it was the size and physicality, for Copp it was the defensive smarts, for Tanev it was the speed and him running around like the tasmanian devil on the ice, for Armia it was the above average hands and an elite defensive stick, even for a guy like Harkins who hasn't established himself in that role you can see that if he is to become an NHL regular, it will be due to his speed and ability to create chaos. When I look at KV I can't come up with any one thing that stands out in that way thus far, supposedly he has a shot but he hasn't been able to get open enough to be able to use it.

If you don't wish to get into details of Ves's failed development path,(to help explain the total change in this player from a promising prospect with an exceedingly high probability of making the NHL- to what he has become today) , that's perfectly fine. But it is a lazy argument to simply assert that it has nothing to do with the orgs development plans and that he simply doesn't have the skill or special attributes, to succeed at the NHL level.

Of the players you mention, only Armia is comparable to Ves when looking at it from a development perspective. Both players were required to totally change their games , spending inordinately long in the AHL, being unnoticeable on the ice and making little positive impact. In the end, Armia succeeded (with his elite defensive stick as you call it) and became a valued winger after Buffalo traded him to the Jets. Perhaps Armia's successful transformation even encouraged the org to try something similar with Ves - we won't ever know of course. But they seem to have tried and the jury is still out as to whether Ves can take this same huge step.

 

[JetsUK]

If you don't wish to get into details of Ves's failed development path,(to help explain the total change in this player from a promising prospect with an exceedingly high probability of making the NHL- to what he has become today) , that's perfectly fine. But it is a lazy argument to simply assert that it has nothing to do with the orgs development plans and that he simply doesn't have the skill or special attributes, to succeed at the NHL level.

Of the players you mention, only Armia is comparable to Ves when looking at it from a development perspective. Both players were required to totally change their games , spending inordinately long in the AHL, being unnoticeable on the ice and making little positive impact. In the end, Armia succeeded (with his elite defensive stick as you call it) and became a valued winger after Buffalo traded him to the Jets. Perhaps Armia's successful transformation even encouraged the org to try something similar with Ves - we won't ever know of course. But they seem to have tried and the jury is still out as to whether Ves can take this same huge step.

Good analysis.

I think we tend to make a version of the fundamental attribution error sometimes with prospects -- if they aren't meeting expectations quickly enough, we tend to lay the blame on their shoulders: lazy, entitled, insufficiently skilled or hardworking, unwilling to buy into a coaching program, etc. But we know that orgs are culpable in misjudging the developing needs and curves of some players; there are dozens of examples, even recently.

Players who are desperate to make their NHL team and are on the cusp don't typically float around. We know from comments from Jets' coaches that Ves was tasked with remaking his game in order to fit onto a preconceived slot as a big-bodied winger with some speed and scoring and a sound defensive game. The kid works like crazy in practice and on the ice, every shift, every game. It isn't an effort thing. He isn't being used on the PP, and it's hard to get that dev time in when you're playing such restricted minutes and roles.

Then, is it a skill thing? I don't think so -- he rips that shot all day long in practice, according to reports (and my eye-test, once upon a time. Much more likely, I think, is some combination of a lag in adapting to the NA game and the brain speed to process it in real time, plus the confidence to make decisions without deferring to linemates.

I'm hopeful that he can get there, and become a useful player for us. Development isn't linear.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Pretty much what I see as well. Its a product of not having a spot for him in the top 6 so he needs to be all out defense in our bottom 6. I hate the way the org views things as top 6 vs bottom 6. We need to look at it as top 9 and a fourth line.

I think it goes even a little beyond that. It needs to get away from the emphasis on roles. Everybody's role should be to win their matchups, win each shift. Balanced play throughout the lineup, though obviously at differing levels.

That said, there needs to be a place for the special teams players. That throws a bit of a monkey wrench into the works - but the broad picture shouldn't change much.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Yeah, I wonder why the org wouldn't develop him normally - give him opportunity to improve his natural offensive strengths , while learning/incorporatingt basic defensive requirements? See exactly what he could develop into as a balanced winger, and if he wasn't good enough to play on our top 9. trade him for something we needed? This would have been much fairer to Ves, and, would allow the org to get fair value for him as an asset as well.

I hope it is all on Maurice's influence. Maybe the next coaching hire will tell the story.

 

[WolfHouse]

Jets paid the price for that window and Enstrom... Nick Suzuki would have a major role on this team - likely for a few years now...

Then passing on Timmins and Hague for a winger at a time when we had tons of wingers - rough.

 

[Imcanadianeh]

Jets paid the price for that window and Enstrom... Nick Suzuki would have a major role on this team - likely for a few years now...

Then passing on Timmins and Hague for a winger at a time when we had tons of wingers - rough.

It’s been 5 years get over it….it’s easy to look back and criticize every move and every draft pick.

Shockingly Jets tried to win a Stanley cup and weren’t worried about what prospect may or may not be there when it’s their turn to draft.

 

[roccerfeller]

Jets paid the price for that window and Enstrom... Nick Suzuki would have a major role on this team - likely for a few years now...

Then passing on Timmins and Hague for a winger at a time when we had tons of wingers - rough.

Hindsight is 20/20

We've been very fortunate with drafting overall thus far, overall many good picks that many other teams would have loved to have

I'd give Ves another year before writing him off. He did look quite promising around draft time too fwiw.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

If you don't wish to get into details of Ves's failed development path,(to help explain the total change in this player from a promising prospect with an exceedingly high probability of making the NHL- to what he has become today) , that's perfectly fine. But it is a lazy argument to simply assert that it has nothing to do with the orgs development plans and that he simply doesn't have the skill or special attributes, to succeed at the NHL level.

Of the players you mention, only Armia is comparable to Ves when looking at it from a development perspective. Both players were required to totally change their games , spending inordinately long in the AHL, being unnoticeable on the ice and making little positive impact. In the end, Armia succeeded (with his elite defensive stick as you call it) and became a valued winger after Buffalo traded him to the Jets. Perhaps Armia's successful transformation even encouraged the org to try something similar with Ves - we won't ever know of course. But they seem to have tried and the jury is still out as to whether Ves can take this same huge step.

KV has not spent an inordinately long time in the AHL. I would argue that the problem has been that he never spent long enough in the AHL, 91 games. In 2020 he spent 60 games in the A. His next longest stretch was 22 games in '19. He should have spent all of this season there. He might be ready for a call up by now if he had.

Armia had the skating skills and agility to allow him to be an outstanding forechecker. Not so much straight ahead speed but quick feet. That was the strength of his game. Plus 'good enough' hands to allow him to cash in on some of the opportunities his forecheck created.

Edit: Not disagreeing with your point. I question the development. Just pointing some fundamental differences between KV and Armia.

 

[Slimy Sculpin]

KV has not spent an inordinately long time in the AHL. I would argue that the problem has been that he never spent long enough in the AHL, 91 games. In 2020 he spent 60 games in the A. His next longest stretch was 22 games in '19. He should have spent all of this season there. He might be ready for a call up by now if he had.

Armia had the skating skills and agility to allow him to be an outstanding forechecker. Not so much straight ahead speed but quick feet. That was the strength of his game. Plus 'good enough' hands to allow him to cash in on some of the opportunities his forecheck created.

Edit: Not disagreeing with your point. I question the development. Just pointing some fundamental differences between KV and Armia.

Some folks have come to Ves' defense by stating that he has a great shot, works really hard, system trying to plug his square peg into a round hole, etc. However, they seem to not be able to see that, currently, he does not have the "skating skills and agility" to be successful in the NHL.

 

[JetsUK]

Some folks have come to Ves' defense by stating that he has a great shot, works really hard, system trying to plug his square peg into a round hole, etc. However, they seem to not be able to see that, currently, he does not have the "skating skills and agility" to be successful in the NHL.

I don't see my self as rushing to Vesalainen's defence.I just think it's way too early to give up on a prospect. I thought the same about Stanley, and although he may never be more than a 5/6, that's still a useful player.

I don't see skating as being the area that's holding him back, really. For me this is in the head.

But I guess we'll see what develops in the A for the rest of the year, and then next season, if he's still here.

 

[Guffman]

Our recent Finnish players just don't seem to work out.

 

[JetsFan815]

If you don't wish to get into details of Ves's failed development path,(to help explain the total change in this player from a promising prospect with an exceedingly high probability of making the NHL- to what he has become today) , that's perfectly fine. But it is a lazy argument to simply assert that it has nothing to do with the orgs development plans and that he simply doesn't have the skill or special attributes, to succeed at the NHL level.

Of the players you mention, only Armia is comparable to Ves when looking at it from a development perspective. Both players were required to totally change their games , spending inordinately long in the AHL, being unnoticeable on the ice and making little positive impact. In the end, Armia succeeded (with his elite defensive stick as you call it) and became a valued winger after Buffalo traded him to the Jets. Perhaps Armia's successful transformation even encouraged the org to try something similar with Ves - we won't ever know of course. But they seem to have tried and the jury is still out as to whether Ves can take this same huge step.

There has been nothing out of the ordinary about KV's development path except for him choosing to spend that season in the KHL (and ofcourse the weird covid season). Not sure why you think he spent "inordinately long in the AHL", on the other hand one may say that they gave him a lot of rope and that he should have been in the AHL this season as well. His AHL scoring has never been the kind that blows the doors open for an early recall esp for a guy who is supposed to bring offense. His camp was not particularly impressive and they still had him pencilled in on that 3rd line spot even after it looked like many other guys had better camps. If he had not been a 1st round pick he spends this season in the AHL as well. "Changing the game" is a convenient lazy excuse for the fans who don't want to accept that the 1st round pick may not pan out. I doubt the results with him are any different with another team, if anything Chevy should be criticized for passing on Hague/Robertson/Frost that year not this crap development excuse that gets trotted out whenever a 1st round pick or a highly touted prospect doesn't make it (I've heard the same about many others like Petan, Dano, Niku)

 

[TS Quint]

He's is not an NHL player. He wasn't even more than a middle of the road AHLer, a JC Lipon level guy. If it wasnt for the obligation the Jets feel to his draft position there is no way he would be in the NHL this year. He is slow, skates slow, thinks slow, even stick handles slow. He's late every where on the ice and everyone in the building knows where he is going to try to pass the puck 3 seconds before it happens.

He's living on his reputation as a prospect from when he was 16 when he was a highly regarded prospect. He hasn't looked good after that. Blaming the Jets for a guy with no tool box is ridiculous.

 

[Slimy Sculpin]

He's is not an NHL player. He wasn't even more than a middle of the road AHLer, a JC Lipon level guy. If it wasnt for the obligation the Jets feel to his draft position there is no way he would be in the NHL this year. He is slow, skates slow, thinks slow, even stick handles slow. He's late every where on the ice and everyone in the building knows where he is going to try to pass the puck 3 seconds before it happens.

He's living on his reputation as a prospect from when he was 16 when he was a highly regarded prospect. He hasn't looked good after that. Blaming the Jets for a guy with no tool box is ridiculous.

Perhaps a little harsh but pretty close to the truth imo.

 

[10Ducky10]

KV, Stanimal and next year's 1st for Konecny with 1m retained.

 

[sipowicz]

Perhaps a little harsh but pretty close to the truth imo.

not harsh enough, Versa-Laine flat out sucks, guy just isn’t an NHL level player and the Jets kept trying to plug him in trying to save face for the GM!

 

[TS Quint]

Perhaps a little harsh but pretty close to the truth imo.

That was my nice version of the post. You should have seen the ones I deleted.

I was with him, hoping he would be good through his WJC years. But he’s just not good. I don’t understand what he has done at the AHL level never mind the NHL level to be where he is right now. I mean, other than players being out and a lack of organizational depth.

 

[Slimy Sculpin]

I'd not checked his AHL stats until just now and you're right. There's absolutely nothing in them that indicates he's ready for the NHL or ever will be.

 

[BigZ65]

If you don't wish to get into details of Ves's failed development path,(to help explain the total change in this player from a promising prospect with an exceedingly high probability of making the NHL- to what he has become today) , that's perfectly fine. But it is a lazy argument to simply assert that it has nothing to do with the orgs development plans and that he simply doesn't have the skill or special attributes, to succeed at the NHL level.

Of the players you mention, only Armia is comparable to Ves when looking at it from a development perspective. Both players were required to totally change their games , spending inordinately long in the AHL, being unnoticeable on the ice and making little positive impact. In the end, Armia succeeded (with his elite defensive stick as you call it) and became a valued winger after Buffalo traded him to the Jets. Perhaps Armia's successful transformation even encouraged the org to try something similar with Ves - we won't ever know of course. But they seem to have tried and the jury is still out as to whether Ves can take this same huge step.

You're starting from an assumption that a player stalling out in development is an organizational failure as if the likelihood of success is equal for each player.

Vesalainen has had a ton of opportunity and done jack. Can barely even get a SOG.

 

[slurpee addict]

Whatever the reason for his 'stalled' development, it's pretty clear he isn't at the right level to play any role on the jets. Back to the Moose and stay there.

 

[Jet]

I hope it is all on Maurice's influence. Maybe the next coaching hire will tell the story.

I doubt it. Players are coached for most of their lives so a coach at the NHL level is such a small part of their development, and really isn't going to transform a players game. You look at a guy like Perfetti or Laine when he came into the league, he just used his skill to get that shot away and score.

They say that at the NHL it's 75% mental and 25% skill and you can really see that play out. Players who are extremely skilled can't figure it out, and players who are lower skill (in an NHL sense) find a way to play and succeed in that environment.

Vesalainen has to do one of two things to become successful at this level:

Use his big body to forecheck and wreak havoc a la Dubois, or
Find a way to get into soft spots to get that shot away, and improve his release

I don't think he's going to do A - some guys just don't have it in them (though Svechnikov is starting to do a lot more of that and he's really blossomed)
I think he can do B - but he needs to make that a focus in practice and offseason training.

 

[surixon]

I doubt it. Players are coached for most of their lives so a coach at the NHL level is such a small part of their development, and really isn't going to transform a players game. You look at a guy like Perfetti or Laine when he came into the league, he just used his skill to get that shot away and score.

They say that at the NHL it's 75% mental and 25% skill and you can really see that play out. Players who are extremely skilled can't figure it out, and players who are lower skill (in an NHL sense) find a way to play and succeed in that environment.

Vesalainen has to do one of two things to become successful at this level:

Use his big body to forecheck and wreak havoc a la Dubois, or
Find a way to get into soft spots to get that shot away, and improve his release

I don't think he's going to do A - some guys just don't have it in them (though Svechnikov is starting to do a lot more of that and he's really blossomed)
I think he can do B - but he needs to make that a focus in practice and offseason training.

Confidence also plays a big role in this. You see that with Svech now. He has that confidence and swagger that he can play and succeed at this level amd it shows in his game. What a great pick up for us.

That is one of the things Ves is missing. He doesn't have that confidence yet.