Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part III - the #FireTherrien edition

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I'm not convinced that Pateryn is NHL-ready. But even if he is, so what? You can always make room later.

Nor am I, and you're right.

 

[Jesse Alexander]

How so? Is there a quota they must have? Wings currently play with 6 LHD and they've already won a cup doing so. Many teams play with 1 RHD so I don't understand the issue here.

Depends if you have D that are capable of playing their off-side or not.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Not sure I understand what you're getting at. Are you saying that absent a better offer than Weise, you would have rather seen the Habs hold Diaz through the end of the season?

Yes. Definitely. And possibly past the draft and into the off season if looking that long for something else was still a priority. But there's pretty much a full month before the trade deadline, and I wouldn't have been sitting Diaz all this time unless something much better than Weise was possibly involved. His level of play didn't deserve a benching like that at all.

 

[Jesse Alexander]

Ottawa vs the Habs. Neil shoving Gallagher and Chucky around. Intimidation

Really? The Habs lost to Ottawa due to intimidation?

I always thought it was Anderson's SV%.

 

[Teufelsdreck]

Not at all. The 2012-2013 Habs come immediately to mind.

Bouillon is no world-beater, but he's a solid #6. Armstrong is vastly better than Parros. Neither of them is a very good player and no one would want to have them any higher in the lineup, but at the same time they can handle the soft minutes without being run over or -- in Armstrong's case -- do a decent job when handed tough defensive minutes.
The thing is, Murray and Parros are both much worse than the average 6th D/13th forward. No one expects your #6 D to be a world-beater, but you also don't expect him to get constantly run over by weak competition despite being started in the offensive zone more than anyone on the club.

How many teams would claim Bouillon if he were put on waivers? By now he's degraded to flea market quality, handled for a few seconds by rag pickers, and put right back. His continued presence is a sad commentary on the Habs. Did you notice how many games in which he was a healthy scratch? That solid #6 of yours will be gone at the end of the season.

 

[Runner77]

Trading a player you can use now for low-end futures, or for a dime-a-dozen grinder, doesn't really improve you much better than "nothing", considering you're deepening an existing hole in your lineup for a season you presumably want to make the playoffs in.

Of course, if the goal is to tank, well, good job, but I don't think that's a sensible approach with the roster in the state it's in.

We'll keep going around in circles so long as Diaz is viewed as more than a depth defenseman. I understand the analytics side to it and how a lot of NHL teams buy into advanced stats, however, why didn't any of them offer more than Weise?

Both Diaz and Weise are low-end assets, with Diaz having the better profile but discounted on account of his unsignability or unreasonable contractual demands. I don't know that this warrants a three-thread trial about Bergevin on its own, even though, Bergevin does have his misgivings.

 

[HCH]

Ideally more than a fourth-liner. But the reason it's a clunker is this: the Habs were already short a right defenseman, and instead of adding one, they traded one away. They had a hole in their lineup and made it deeper.

That is a pretty hilarious analysis. So you want to keep Diaz around just because he holds his stick in a different way than some of the other defenseman on the team. There are tons of defensemen in the league who effectively play on their "offside".

If you want to be serious about your analysis, you would say the Montreal had an excess of defensemen and a shortage of physical wingers that could be relied upon. Then you would look at the role each defenseman plays, the contract situation and who might available from within the organization in the near future.

It is painfully obvious that our defense is less physical than it should be, we have a player who is an impending free agent and who we could lose for nothing and ,in Beaulieu, we have a larger, more phyiscal replacement who is close to being ready to step in. In the near future, he should be even better than Diaz.

In the not too distant future Pateryn, Dietz, Thrower and maybe even a longshot like Nygren are potential defensemen and all shoot right... if that is really what your are fixated on.

But clearly, you think having the right hand as the bottom hand on the stick on the current roster is more important than other considerations, even if this team's chances for a cup win are microscopically small. Amazing!

 

[Hoople]

Really? The Habs lost to Ottawa due to intimidation?

I always thought it was Anderson's SV%.

If you don't understand the mental aspects of sports, your post makes a lot of sense.

 

[Runner77]

Yes. Definitely. And possibly past the draft and into the off season if looking that long for something else was still a priority. But there's pretty much a full month before the trade deadline, and I wouldn't have been sitting Diaz all this time unless something much better than Weise was possibly involved. His level of play didn't deserve a benching like that at all.

The only issue with the above is that we're not privy to the demands that were made by Diaz's agent. I would venture that Diaz probably expected a pay raise largely incongruent with his projected role, as there have been recurring rumors that negotiations have been ongoing since the early part of the season. We'll never know what the demands were but safe to say they would have resigned him had terms been remotely reasonable. Diaz's 20 minute TOI games in the first part of last year, were a mirage -- he's not a second pairing D -- I'll venture that 29 other GMs were not buying that Diaz's increased role was projectable as some new plateau.

 

[Teufelsdreck]

Despite missing that valuable RH Dman the Habs didn't lose to Calgary. Nor did Weise embarrass himself. In fact, I liked what I saw from him and so did a number of other board members. It's sad when posters quibble about such minutiae when the Habs have more pressing problems than not having a certain part-time third-pairing Dman, It's a case of a... retention.

 

[HCH]

Ideally more than a fourth-liner.

If Therrien promotes Weise to the 2nd or 3rd line, would it make the trade better

 

[Jesse Alexander]

If you don't understand the mental aspects of sports, your post makes a lot of sense.

Tell me, prof, what sport do you play?

 

[googlymoogly]

Ottawa vs the Habs. Neil shoving Gallagher and Chucky around. Intimidation and we had no answer since Prust was injured. Did Colby stand up to Neil? Diaz?

Your ideal of the game of hockey works very well on a computer. Meanwhile, the real game is played for real on the ice.

Good luck in your NHL 14 playoff pool.

I really don't think we'll be able to get through to them that Murray has intangibles that can't be measured by statistics. Murray is toughest Dman we've had since Souray before that you had to go to someone like Odelein. Also the Habs never won a cup without a rearguard who was big and nasty. Very few teams can win without a blueliner that scares opponents.
Murray is a stopgap until hopefully Tinordi takes over. Diaz was also a stopgap for more skilled and bigger guys like Beaulieu, and maybe Nygren, Bennett etc.

The only argument in this trade should of been could MB of gotten more. Murray should have nothing to do in this, he was brought in the shore up the wimpy-ness of the blueline.

 

[Jesse Alexander]

If Therrien promotes Weise to the 2nd or 3rd line, would it make the trade better

That's the kind of move one would expect a crap coach like Therrien to make.

 

[MathMan]

How many teams would claim Bouillon if he were put on waivers?

6th D-men are dime-a-dozen, most teams have them already so there's no need to claim them.

If the Habs waived Murray, would anyone claim him? What if the Habs had waived Diaz?

Did you notice how many games in which he was a healthy scratch? That solid #6 of yours will be gone at the end of the season.

This is a team that scratches Diaz to play Murray. I have no trust in their personnel decisions.

That said, I'm fine with the idea that Bouillon will leave. He's a decent #6, nothing more. They're easily replaced. That's part of what makes this whole situation so frustrating.

 

[Grant McCagg]

That is a pretty hilarious analysis. So you want to keep Diaz around just because he holds his stick in a different way than some of the other defenseman on the team. There are tons of defensemen in the league who effectively play on their "offside".

If you want to be serious about your analysis, you would say the Montreal had an excess of defensemen and a shortage of physical wingers that could be relied upon. Then you would look at the role each defenseman plays, the contract situation and who might available from within the organization in the near future.

It is painfully obvious that our defense is less physical than it should be, we have a player who is an impending free agent and who we could lose for nothing and ,in Beaulieu, we have a larger, more phyiscal replacement who is close to being ready to step in. In the near future, he should be even better than Diaz.

In the not too distant future Pateryn, Dietz, Thrower and maybe even a longshot like Nygren are potential defensemen and all shoot right... if that is really what your are fixated on.

But clearly, you think having the right hand as the bottom hand on the stick on the current roster is more important than other considerations, even if this team's chances for a cup win are microscopically small. Amazing!

good post.

When MM has a point...and it's usually only one..he likes to dwell on it. You'd swear there were no dmen playing on their opposite side in the league. Beaulieu's arms could protrude from his chest and back for all I care..he's still a better dman for this club than Diaz. I'd be willing to bet he can shoot the puck harder right handed than Diaz can.

He does have something else he keeps bringing up that is almost as hilarious....that Weise is a fourth liner only. Never mind that he's only in his second NHL season and popped 29 goals at age 22 in the AHL, never mind that he played like a third liner in his first game in Montreal...MathMan knows for a fact that Weise will never play on the third line...again..even though if he really did his math..he would see that on a number of occasions Weise has already been a third-line player on the Canucks in his first two seasons.

That would be kinda like insisting Bournival will only ever be a fourth liner. We don't know these things....nobody knows these things...but Mathman knows...he did the math.

 

[Beendair Donedat]

I'm not sure who is more amusing with their talent "analysis" Mathman or Moncton Scout....

 

[MathMan]

That is a pretty hilarious analysis. So you want to keep Diaz around just because he holds his stick in a different way than some of the other defenseman on the team. There are tons of defensemen in the league who effectively play on their "offside".

The issue with Diaz is not that he's a right-handed defenseman per se, it's that he is effective on the right side. Which is not really the case of anyone on the team not named Subban.

Yes, there are many defensemen who can play their off-side fairly effectively, but Montreal doesn't have any. Well, maybe Gorges could, but they haven't tried it this year (not sure why not).

I don't know why that would seem so weird after seeing Emelin struggle so much on his off-side this season.

 

[MathMan]

He does have something else he keeps bringing up that is almost as hilarious....that Weise is a fourth liner only. Never mind that he's only in his second NHL season and popped 29 goals at age 22 in the AHL, never mind that he played like a third liner in his first game in Montreal...

Weise is 25. It's not like he has a lot more development in him; that's typically peak age. By contrast, Bournival is 21 and already has done well in tough minutes as Plekanec's LW in stretches.

Let me ask you then, what do you think the odds are that Weise amounts to more than a fourth-liner?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

why didn't any of them offer more than Weise?

Maybe a "gut feeling" based on how Bergevin and/or Therrien might be "treating" Diaz. Maybe Bergevin started off the first week legitimately asking "too much", and it wasn't about any other GMs' offers at one point. There are so many possibilities that I can understand when I see people just start tuning out the "too much information".

 

[Dominator13]

Really? The Habs lost to Ottawa due to intimidation?

I always thought it was Anderson's SV%.

If you look at stat sheets but not the actual games than yeah, you could think that..

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

You'd swear there were no dmen playing on their opposite side in the league.

Pfft. Seems like more attempted convincing from people that it's some universal skill that's worth exploring on any occasion. Is it really something that you "might as well try", despite the number of players who seem to give lots of credit to teammates who have made the swap, because of the changes in directions, angles, approach to pinching, cycling, finding shooting lanes, etc? Be honest. It comes down to hockey sense, and not all defensemen have enough; maybe not even half of them.

 

[Runner77]

Maybe a "gut feeling" based on how Bergevin and/or Therrien might be "treating" Diaz. Maybe Bergevin started off the first week legitimately asking "too much", and it wasn't about any other GMs' offers at one point. There are so many possibilities that I can understand when I see people just start tuning out the "too much information".

I don't know how much "information" we truly have as most of us are extrapolating from bits and pieces. However, safe to say that MB and his lackeys had more than enough time to assess how much they wanted to invest in Diaz, if the price were right.

If we are to suggest that Bergevin may have somehow sabotaged his chances to sell Diaz for greater value, then that brings into question more than just Diaz. However, leaving it at Diaz, how much more value could Bergevin have obtained? I believe the market is efficient for the most part and most GMs are savvy and are typically well-informed about most players in the league. No one is going to overpay for a depth asset.

That Bergevin could have gotten a player incrementally better than Weise is nothing to lose sleep over. Maybe could have happened, but in the grand scheme, it probably would not have mattered all that much. There are better places for Bergevin and his buddies to extricate value.

For the record, I'm not all that enthused about Weise. However, if he can be a low-cost and efficient 4th line asset and accepts his role, that could allow us to market the likes of Moen for say a 2nd rounder, something we may have been less likely to entertain at this juncture.

 

[Runner77]

Let me ask you then, what do you think the odds are that Weise amounts to more than a fourth-liner?

The same odds that Diaz amounts to a 2nd pairing D.

 

[Jesse Alexander]

If you look at stat sheets but not the actual games than yeah, you could think that..

No doubt if the Habs a lineup of Murrays they would have won that series.

And you're right. By definition, stats guys never watch the games.