Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part III - the #FireTherrien edition

[MSLs absurd thighs]

The 2001-2002 Habs scored 2.52 goals per game.
The 2013-2014 Habs score 2.46 goals per game.

Pretty similar, all in all, with 2013-2014 even offering a smidgeon less goal support.



Personnel-wise that's true, but the quality of play is disturbingly similar. The Habs are wasting an awful lot of talent, playing like a lottery club 5-on-5 despite a decidedly non-lottery roster.



The 2001-2002 Habs allowed 31.7 shots per game.
The 2013-2014 Habs allow 30.8 shots per game.

So while Theodore's workload was less, I wouldn't call them completely uncomparable.

Having quoted the numbers, I will, however, offer the caveat that the league-averages change over a decade, especially in goaltending. I'd say that 2013-2014 is in fact better than 2001-2002 on the ice, but not nearly as much as they should be.

Doesn't change the crux though. Montreal is, currently, a very bad club propped up by goaltending. It's a refrain Hab fans are entirely too familiar with. And they certainly have more talent than their level of play suggests.

Yeah, it's tough to be as good as the superstar team you saw in the first half of 2011-2012 according to your standards, eh?

Quit whining about the quality of the team, and try to tell me the last time the Habs had a guy on pace for 38 goals in a 73 games season, a Norris Trophy Winner who is still on pace for 50 points+, all that while being 4th in their whole conference.

But noooo.... BAD team... Get real and set your expectations straight. The learning curve this team is going through is 100% normal.

 

[Habnot]

Yet most of the good players of the Detroit Red Wings graduated right in the NHL without playing in the AHL or played 1 season in the AHL only. This is a myth that Detroit sends all of its young propects to play in the AHL for 5 years before graduating to the NHL.

- Pavel Datsyuk did not play one single game in the AHL. He gradued in the NHL at 23 from the KHL. He learned to play in the NHL as an utility player.

- Zetterberg did not play one single game in the AHL. He graduated in the NHL at 22 from the SEL. He learned to play in the NHL as an utility player.

- Kronwall played 102 games in the AHL which is around 1 season and an half (the same amount of games Tinordi has played right now). He graduated in the NHL full time at 24 (he played 20 games the year before). He learned to play in the NHL behind Lidstrom, Schneider and Chelios.

- Lidstrom did not play one single game in the AHL. He graduated at 21 from the SEL and was good right away

- Yzerman did play play one single game in the AHL. Graduated at 18.

- Fedorov did not play in the AHL. Graduated at 20.

- Holmstrom played only 6 games in the AHL. Graduated from the SEL at 23.

- Filppula played 77 games in the AHL (less than Beaulieu and Tinordi). Graduated in the NHL at 22.

- Martin Lapointe played 75 games in the AHL. Graduated full time at 22.

- Darren McCarty played 73 games in the AHL. Graduated full time at 21.

The problem is when people want to prove at point using the Wings they use the average players. The one who took many/some years in the AHL before becoming good. It's true that the wings are more patient than other teams. They can wait for a Beauchemin or Conroy to progress in the AHL. But when a player is good enough at 21/22 and less the Wings bring him to the NHL to play on a 3rd line or higher if he is good enough.

The problem of Edmonton is not the kids. It's the almost complete lack of good veterans to help them. Skilled players like Hall and Eberle would not learn more in the AHL than they are right now.

IMO Beaulieu and Tinordi should be in the NHL next year if they are good enough to play as 5th and 6th D men. Tinordi will be 22 next year with over 100 games in the AHL. If he can't play in the NHL as a 6th D man than he will probably never be more than Hall Gill. Beaulieu will be 21(soon 22) next year with over 100 games in the AHL. Those guys should be ready to be utility players in the NHL behind veterans like Gorges and Markov and behind players in their "peak" like Emelin and Subban.

Nice try - Fillpula was the only one you mentioned that was not drafted in the 90's.

Look at 2000 onward.

 

[MathMan]

Yeah, it's tough to be as good as the superstar team you saw in the first half of 2011-2012 according to your standards, eh?

21 games. At that point the Habs had scored over 13 5-on-5 goals for every 10 they had allowed (a 1.33 ratio that would see them 5th in the league this year).

Compare that to this year, where the Habs score only 9 5-on-5 goals for every 10 they allow (0.90 ratio, 23rd in the league).

The 2011-2012, in its early days, was a vastly superior 5-on-5 club than this year's Habs.

Genuinely good teams are strong 5-on-5 and don't rely exclusively on goaltending to bail them out. I don't think that should be very controversial.

But noooo.... BAD team... Get real and set your expectations straight. The learning curve this team is going through is 100% normal.

I'm glad that a couple of guys are having success and that Carey Price is keeping them afloat, but plenty of terrible teams have had great players on them before. Montreal's fourth-place placement right now is, if not an outright sham, largely the result of superlative goaltending and not quality play by the skaters. It is, in other words, typical of the vast majority of Gainey-Gauthier era Habs editions.

 

[LaP]

Nice try - Fillpula was the only one you mentioned that was not drafted in the 90's.

Look at 2000 onward.

Name me all the awesome players the Wings drafted after Datsyuk and Zetterberg and not on my list ? I surely missed some but the list is probably not long. btw Kronwall was drafted in 2000. And don't name Ericsson he is good but far from a game breaker.

When people talk about the wings they are not talking about the last 5 years. They are talking about what the Wings did since the last time they missed the playoffs (their playoff streak could very well end this season). I stand my point the fact is a lot of the dominating Wings players since the last time they missed the playoffs (1990) started in the NHL before the age of 23.

 

[Smokey Thompson]

Name me all the awesome players the Wings drafted after Datsyuk and Zetterberg ?

Helm
Tatar
Nyquist
Howard
Jurco
Smith
Filppula
Franzen
The list keeps going..

 

[Teufelsdreck]

21 games. At that point the Habs had scored over 13 5-on-5 goals for every 10 they had allowed (a 1.33 ratio that would see them 5th in the league this year).

Compare that to this year, where the Habs score only 9 5-on-5 goals for every 10 they allow (0.90 ratio, 23rd in the league).

The 2011-2012, in its early days, was a vastly superior 5-on-5 club than this year's Habs.

Genuinely good teams are strong 5-on-5 and don't rely exclusively on goaltending to bail them out. I don't think that should be very controversial.



I'm glad that a couple of guys are having success and that Carey Price is keeping them afloat, but plenty of terrible teams have had great players on them before. Montreal's fourth-place placement right now is, if not an outright sham, largely the result of superlative goaltending and not quality play by the skaters. It is, in other words, typical of the vast majority of Gainey-Gauthier era Habs editions.

Those selective statistical paper airplanes you throw at us have no impact. In looking back at the 2011-12 roster I see a team that was playing over its head for a finite period before descending like the arc of a parabola. I'd not trade this edition for the earlier one you cite, which benefited from the ephemeral spark of a decaying Erik Cole.

 

[LaP]

Helm
Tatar
Nyquist
Howard
Jurco
Smith
Filppula
Franzen
The list keeps going..

Filpula is on my list. Franzen ok. Jurco plays in the AHL and is 21 ??? Tatar is 22. Nyquist is 24 ans it's too soon to say he is a dominating player. Smith is 24 ans is not a dominating player for now. Save for veterans Franzen and Filpulla drafted around 2000 and before none of those young Wings players would make a difference for the CH if you would replace Pacman, Gallagher, Subban, Eller, etc for them. In fact the ch would maybe even be a worse team with them instead of the 24 ans less players we curently have.

The Diaz trade had to happen. We need to free some place for Tinordi, Beaulieu and Pateryn next season. At 22 and 24 they are not too young if they have the skills. If they don't then we need to know it for sure before making another McDo caliber mistake. We don't have to wait until they are 25 to try them in the NHL for more than 10 games.

 

[Price is Wright]

Helm

hahaha

Ohhhhhh. Oh I can't take this. My ribs are hurting.

I can't make fun of the Leafs about Bozak anymore because Detroit has been playing Helm top line.

 

[MathMan]

I'd not trade this edition for the earlier one you cite, which benefited from the ephemeral spark of a decaying Erik Cole.

I wouldn't trade this roster for that one either, which is sort of the saddest part of this point: the current team has more talent yet is playing worse.

As for the parabola you cite, it's quite interesting that the 2011-2012 and 2013-2014 Habs have similar decaying curves in many important numbers, except the 2013-2014 Habs are much healthier.

Seriously, gang. You don't even need "fancy" stats. This club has one of the best goaltenders in the league this year, and has still allowed 10 more 5-on-5 goals than it scored in 59 games. The 2011-2012 Habs were -7, and that was over 82 games. How is that not a problem?

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

hahaha

Ohhhhhh. Oh I can't take this. My ribs are hurting.

I can't make fun of the Leafs about Bozak anymore because Detroit has been playing Helm top line.

Well Desharnais is our top center sooo

 

[MathMan]

Well Desharnais is our top center sooo

He isn't, and has never been, and I say this as someone who doesn't mind DD.

 

[Hackett]

So when was the last time somebody actually posted about weise or diaz in this thread?

Judging from the most recent posts, we are just posting to see how long we can keep this thread going.