Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part III - the #FireTherrien edition

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MathMan

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There are usually 3 forwards and 1 DMan who are on the ice the same time as Murray. Murray is not out there by himself.

This is true. Strangest thing, though, pretty much everyone on the team does worse when they're on the ice with Murray than when they're with other players.

Is he the entirety of the problem? Of course not. Is he a major contributor to it? That should be equally obvious. Is the philosophy that leads to trading away Diaz while the team is playing Murray part and parcel of the problem? I would argue that it is.

The root problem is the team's philosophy and their fascination with Murray is a symptom.
 

MathMan

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I have a theory that Therrien figured out that teams like the Caps under Boudreau didn't have much success in the playoffs with a offensive style and decided that what the Habs would need to go far was a defensive/grinding style.

Which is hilarious because it crippled the Capitals too. They should never have let Halak standing on his head in such a ridiculous fashion lead them to alter what was an excellent club so much.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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This is true. Strangest thing, though, pretty much everyone on the team does worse when they're on the ice with Murray than when they're with other players.

Is he the entirety of the problem? Of course not. Is he a major contributor to it? That should be equally obvious. Is the philosophy that leads to trading away Diaz while the team is playing Murray part and parcel of the problem? I would argue that it is.

The root problem is the team's philosophy and their fascination with Murray is a symptom.
I have zero problem with us going after a physical blueliner who can clear the crease. We need a guy who can do this. But we need a guy who can do it effectively and more times than not Murray is screening our goalie worse than the opponents do. He's slow, doesn't have a whole lot of hockey sense and handles the puck like it's a hand grenade.

By all means, get a shut down guy. But don't think that you're going to be able to pick up some guy off the scrap heap (as we did) and think you'll get a good player. Is it any wonder this guy was out there with no offers? I don't think so.
 

MathMan

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I have zero problem with us going after a physical blueliner who can clear the crease. We need a guy who can do this.

Funny thing is, the vast majority of players who do this are bad possession defensemen. Not generally Murray bad, of course, but they tend to spend entirely too much time hemmed into their own zone. Which, when you consider that they're called "stay at home defensemen", makes a certain amount of sense...

But don't think that you're going to be able to pick up some guy off the scrap heap (as we did) and think you'll get a good player.

It happens. You just have to avoid the qualities that are overvalued by GMs (size, hitting) and go for guys coming off of unlucky seasons. Florida got a pretty good player when they picked up Tom Gilbert off the scrap heap.
 

habaholic

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I have zero problem with us going after a physical blueliner who can clear the crease. We need a guy who can do this. But we need a guy who can do it effectively and more times than not Murray is screening our goalie worse than the opponents do. He's slow, doesn't have a whole lot of hockey sense and handles the puck like it's a hand grenade.

By all means, get a shut down guy. But don't think that you're going to be able to pick up some guy off the scrap heap (as we did) and think you'll get a good player. Is it any wonder this guy was out there with no offers? I don't think so.

So let me get this straight, you guys want a defenseman who's physical, fast, can handle the puck and has top notch hockey sense?

Should he cost 1.5 million/year as well?
 

habaholic

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Funny thing is, the vast majority of players who do this are bad possession defensemen. Not Murray bad, generally, but they tend to spend entirely too much time hemmed into their own zone. Which, when you consider that they're called "stay at home defensemen", makes a certain amount of sense...



It happens. You just have to avoid the qualities that are overvalued by GMs (size, hitting) and go for guys coming off of unlucky seasons. Florida got a pretty good player when they picked up Tom Gilbert off the scrap heap.

Tom Gilbert is awful. That's why he was picked up "off scrap heap" as you say.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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So let me get this straight, you guys want a defenseman who's physical, fast, can handle the puck and has top notch hockey sense?

Should he cost 1.5 million/year as well?
Nope. A quality blueliner is going to cost more than 1.5 mil. We got what we paid for... We had that cap space btw this offseason but our GM decided to cheap out on the blueline side because we had to go get Briere.

Hopefully Tinordi can be the guy because we DO need a physical presence back there. But it has to be somebody who can actually play hockey.
 

habaholic

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Nope. A quality blueliner is going to cost more than 1.5 mil. We got what we paid for... We had that cap space btw this offseason but our GM decided to cheap out on the blueline side because we had to go get Briere.

Hopefully Tinordi can be the guy because we DO need a physical presence back there. But it has to be somebody who can actually play hockey.

We had cap space, I agree, but what real good defenseman was available AND willing to come here? Please, don't mention the name Tom Gilbert...(I know it wasn't you)
 

MathMan

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Tom Gilbert is awful. That's why he was picked up "off scrap heap" as you say.

He's not. He just got hatchet-jobbed by the Edmonton media, then had an unlucky season in Minnesota.

He's playing the top pair quite effectively for the Panthers, is better than half the Habs' current D-men, and would've filled a much-needed role on the right side.

(Yes, I know the Panthers are low in the standings. That's what having poor goaltending will do to you.)
 

yianik

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We had cap space, I agree, but what real good defenseman was available AND willing to come here? Please, don't mention the name Tom Gilbert...(I know it wasn't you)

Well, anybody well rounded and good would not have settled for a 1 year deal and given the young guys knocking at the door signing an old for lots of years would not have made sense. There was a role MB wanted to fill ( as did many if not most fans) with a stop gap, and he did in Murray.
 

Jesse Alexander

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We had cap space, I agree, but what real good defenseman was available AND willing to come here? Please, don't mention the name Tom Gilbert...(I know it wasn't you)

A RD, can skate, pass with very good possession numbers on a weak team and comes at under $1-million. What's not to like?
 

Lafleurs Guy

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We had cap space, I agree, but what real good defenseman was available AND willing to come here? Please, don't mention the name Tom Gilbert...(I know it wasn't you)
People only find out who's available after a trade is made. Did anyone know that Louis Erikson was available before he was dealt? No.

Offer up the right deal and anyone is available. A GM's job is to go out and improve his team. Many teams (most notably Philly) had cap space issues. One guy I would've looked at would've been Cobourn. Not a number one guy but big with some mobility and could've stepped in on the 2nd pairing. He didn't have a great 2013 as he was misused but he'd be a guy I would've looked hard at. If he wasn't available (or if our scouts kiboshed him) then move onto somebody else...

Instead we wasted the cash on Briere....
 
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JoelWarlord

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One glaring problem with the premise of your post.

There are usually 3 forwards and 1 DMan who are on the ice the same time as Murray. Murray is not out there by himself.
Of course. That doesn't explain how Murray is leaps and bounds worse than all the other players who play with the same teammates. It looks even worse when you look at matchups and zone starts. It's not all on him but when his shifts are isolated there's a clear trend.

Three shots on goal (while Murray is on the ice) against Carolina had Eller as Center.
Four shots on goal DD was Center.
Two shots on goal White was Center.
Three shots on goal Pleks was Center.

Can you give me the correlation between those shots, those lines and Murray? Or is it all Murray and none of the above allowing shots.

One game samples don't show you very much. The fact is that over the course of the season he is a clear outlier among the D corps and substantially worse than the rest. No matter what linemates or situation he's in outside the PK he drags everyone down and bleeds chances against.

We were outshot by Carolina 32-24. Murray only played 13:58, of which 1:58 was on the PK.

The possession issues facing the Habs rise far above Murray.

Why can it not be both? Why can it not be that both the system and the player are bad? Murray isn't going to be a plus possession player if we suddenly turn it around, he was a boat anchor with the Sharks and Penguins too, where's the excuse for him there?

As for his ice time, he doesn't generally play a lot of minutes but the D has become built on sheltering him. He gets offensive starts which means Subban and Markov start from their own end more often, facing tougher competition. Gorges gets leaned on even more, a rookie D-man and Emelin play on their off side, we do a lot to accommodate Murray's presence in the lineup and he still is the worst on the team and one of the worst in the league.

You too will eventually overcome the pain of losing Diaz. Warm milk or beer will help you sleep at night. Time will be your best ally and friend.

Or you can simply watch Vancouver if you cannot overcome the grief.
:shakehead Come on, at least go all the way and say I only like computer hockey or something.

We're all playing make believe GM on this site. Diaz isn't a core player or a top pairing defender but it's stupid to trade him away to keep a guy like Murray in the lineup who should be in the AHL. As I said, it's to a lesser scale what we saw the Leafs do when they moved out a good player in Grabovski for Bolland, and let "soft" MacArthur walk to sign Clarkson. Good teams don't move productive players away for a 4th liner when there's a place for them in the lineup. Good teams don't shelter plugs to the detriment of better players.

My concern is we'll do something similar.
 
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habaholic

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People only find out who's available after a trade is made. Did anyone know that Louis Erikson was available before he was dealt? No.

Offer up the right deal and anyone is available. A GM's job is to go out and improve his team. Many teams (most notably Philly) had cap space issues. One guy I would've looked at would've been Cobourn. Not a number one guy but big with some mobility and could've stepped in on the 2nd pairing. He didn't have a great 2013 as he was misused but he'd be a guy I would've looked hard at. If he wasn't available (or if our scouts kiboshed him) then move onto somebody else...

Instead we wasted the cash on Briere....


Hey, they could've done a multitude of things. Who says they didn't look at Coburn? Fact of the matter is, he would've cost you assets as well as cap space. Briere and Murray only cost cap space.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Hey, they could've done a multitude of things. Who says they didn't look at Coburn? Fact of the matter is, he would've cost you assets as well as cap space. Briere and Murray only cost cap space.
It's very obvious they didn't. We signed Briere on day one. Once you sign him, Cobourn is no longer a possibility.

As for Cobourn costing us assets... we had cap space and Philly was stuck. Cobourn didn't have a great year the previous season (partially due to injury and partially due to how they used him) he wouldn't have cost much dude. That's the advantage of cap space! And we squandered it on a player who our coach doesn't even play.
 

Price is Wright

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The fact that he's soft as butter and terrible defensively?

But he has such great possession numbers! Because if there's one thing I want my defenceman doing, it's carrying the puck and doing nothing with it before it gets lost and he's out of position.

any Panthers fan will tell you their D has been garbage for most of the season but hey what's not to like about Gilbert Grape eh?
 

Ezpz

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It's very obvious they didn't. We signed Briere on day one. Once you sign him, Cobourn is no longer a possibility.

As for Cobourn costing us assets... we had cap space and Philly was stuck. Cobourn didn't have a great year the previous season (partially due to injury and partially due to how they used him) he wouldn't have cost much dude.
That's the advantage of cap space! And we squandered it on a player who our coach doesn't even play.

That's why Philly traded him right? Posts like these(the pretend option instant fix the team was available) are so dumb. Philly weren't stuck. They didn't make a single move and still stayed under the cap.
 

habaholic

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It's very obvious they didn't. We signed Briere on day one. Once you sign him, Cobourn is no longer a possibility.

As for Cobourn costing us assets... we had cap space and Philly was stuck. Cobourn didn't have a great year the previous season (partially due to injury and partially due to how they used him) he wouldn't have cost much dude. That's the advantage of cap space! And we squandered it on a player who our coach doesn't even play.

You know trades can be discussed before day 1 of the free agency period right? Saying Coburn wouldn't have cost us much is an opinion and as much as I respect it, I can't say I agree with it. Oilers have been hard after Coburn since the end of last season if you would believe insiders like McKenzie and Lebrun and have yet to be able to acquire him. Yet they have an abundance of assets to give (unlike habs). What gives?

Holmgren is no fool.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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That's why Philly traded him right? Posts like these(the pretend option instant fix the team was available) are so dumb. Philly weren't stuck. They didn't make a single move and still stayed under the cap.
I was asked to speculate as to who I'd target and said so. I gave my reasoning why... Nobody said that he was going to get dealt dude. Cobourn was rumoured to be available and as I said, you never really know if a player is avaiable until they are dealt.

If you're going to cut into a conversation and make posts like this, read the posts first.
You know trades can be discussed before day 1 of the free agency period right? Saying Coburn wouldn't have cost us much is an opinion and as much as I respect it, I can't say I agree with it. Oilers have been hard after Coburn since the end of last season if you would believe insiders like McKenzie and Lebrun and have yet to be able to acquire him. Yet they have an abundance of assets to give (unlike habs). What gives?

Holmgren is no fool.
You asked me what kind of blueliner I would've gone after and who was available. I told you specifically - I don't know who was available - nobody does. You can't know unless you're a GM. What I can tell you is that trades get made all the time and when they happen the public finds out that a player (Eriksson for example) was available at the right price.

Any player is available at the right price btw. To answer your question as best I could I told you - Cobourn is a guy I would've targeted and I gave you the reasons why. And as I said... if he wasn't available (very real possibility) or if our scouts kiboshed him for whatever reason, then move on to another similar style player and see if you can get them.

But sorry, I don't buy for a second that we did this. We went after Briere hard and got him. Why? No idea. We already had a small soft center in DD so for the life of me I have no idea why we needed another one.
 

habaholic

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I don't believe one can quantify butter but he's much better than Murray defensively.

You think? Since you love stats so much, see how much PK time he gets on average.

Anyhow, you have your opinion and i have mine. Seeing as i have (had) a D core with Subban, Markov, Gorges, Emelin, Diaz/Beaulieu, I'd rather complement them with a guy like Murray than a guy like Gilbert. but that's just me....and MB. I must be a dumb as he is.
 
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