Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part III - the #FireTherrien edition

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Jesse Alexander

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Feb 6, 2014
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And yet, they maintain a similar record. All those stats show is a change in system, not a change in effectiveness.

If you look a little closer, it's not similar at all.

Goals_Diff.png


Through 48 games in 2013-14 the Habs had 14 less GF and 12 more GA. That's a stunning -26 in just over half a season. That huge difference shows 2 things:

MB's off-season acquisitions were pathetic and

MT's coaching/system is pathetic.
 

SquiddFX

#Seanski
Dec 16, 2013
7,874
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Montreal
You're blaming Diaz for not stopping a 2-1? What's next? We'll blame Price for a breakaway?

Diaz has made some bad plays, I wouldn't blame him for that one though. You always take the pass on a 2-1 and leave the shooter to the goalie, but you don't let him go 1 on 1 with your goalie. As you get closer, if you feel you can move in on the shooter, you go for it.

I'm sure you can dig out worse plays from Diaz.

Boy that that a leap. I'd blame the defense for the breakaway just like I am blaming Diaz for his awful read.

You just answered yourself. Diaz makes bad plays and he is to blame for that goal. He was standing right in from of RNH and still couldn't stop him. His job was to cover Petry, Price has the shooter covered, and Diaz should cover the passing lane. I trust Price more than Diaz when it comes to making a save or stop RNH. It's scary you think the opposite.
 

TalkingHead

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Mar 29, 2011
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I'm not a Murray fan but if we're going to nitpick plays why not this one for Diaz?

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=465984

For a guy who was good positionally, he played that play like a 5 year old. Defence 101 is to cover the Petry. He did the opposite.

Did you read the rest of my post? Or the post I was responding to?

He brings up one play where he thought Murray did well. The image in my post was from the entire season and the gif was just a smart ass comment showing a terrible play by Murray (though those are pretty easy to find).
 

Lafleurs Guy

Guuuuuuuy!
Jul 20, 2007
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Good question. Let me load up my database and I'll run some numbers.

Corsi (ratio of all shot attempts)
Total: 40.5%
Before Jan 1: 38.9%
Since Jan 1: 42.1%

Fenwick (ratio of all shot attempts, not including blocked shots)
Total: 42.2%
Before Jan 1: 40.3%
Since Jan 1: 44.0%

Well, if you want to call this "improvement"... I suppose that's technically true, but his post-January 1st numbers still place him in the conversation as the worst D-men in the league. All of this despite sheltered usage. A good chunk of the improvement seems to be due to spending less time with Bouillon and more with Beaulieu.

Why did Murray's plus-minus improve so much if his underlying numbers did not? Because Price has been saving his butt more, and because he's been out for a few goals for. Some of which he participated in, and some of which were like last night where Subban and Beaulieu started a rush, and Subban went to change just before they scored.

But all in all, Murray didn't improve much, if at all; he just got paired with better partner, but it's still, possession-wise, a disaster -- despite the Subban and Markov pairings taking on tougher minutes to limit the damage.
This.

And btw, how has PK done in games where he was (ridiculously) paired with Murray?
 

MathMan

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And btw, how has PK done in games where he was (ridiculously) paired with Murray?

Well, it's a very small sample, but their unblocked shot attempt ratio (Fenwick) was at 43%, which is good for Murray (42.1% without Subban) but not so much for PK (50.2% without Murray).

Even Subban can't keep Murray afloat, though it didn't help that they were infamously thrown against Ovechkin. Strange idea.
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
55,329
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Boy that that a leap. I'd blame the defense for the breakaway just like I am blaming Diaz for his awful read.

You just answered yourself. Diaz makes bad plays and he is to blame for that goal. He was standing right in from of RNH and still couldn't stop him. His job was to cover Petry, Price has the shooter covered, and Diaz should cover the passing lane. I trust Price more than Diaz when it comes to making a save or stop RNH. It's scary you think the opposite.

He made a mistake, so did Plekanec by standing pat (kind of like Eller had done earlier in the year during a PK pinch and Therrien grilled PK publicly for his pinch afterwards) instead of continuing to back up in order to cover for the D. But to flat out blame Diaz for the goal is a little much.

In any event, everybody makes mistakes, Diaz is no exception. But there is no denying that he is better than Murray. Anybody arguing against that really is just shooting himself in the foot.
 

JoelWarlord

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May 7, 2012
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Who is Dale Weise?

Murray vs Diaz.

For the umpteenth time, the logic behind Diaz and Beaulieu being mutually exclusive is the discussion here.

This trade was predicated on an idea that having Beaulieu and Diaz in the lineup was a problem, and that Murray is a core part of the D. That idea is concerning and trading away a guy like Diaz for a grinder to keep Murray in the lineup is a problem. It's on a smaller scale exactly what we saw the Leafs do when they shipped out Grabovski to bring in Bolland and have cap space for Clarkson. Dale Weise is an interchangable spare part, there isn't really much to say about him, he's big and fast, plays a fine 4th line game. He's not a player who will make or break your lineup so it's understandable there isn't much talk about him in the thread. He's not the point, the point is that Murray's play has in the eyes of management made Diaz expendable to the point of them being content to get a 4th liner for him.

As an aside, I don't know how you can champion puck possession so much, yet be such a Murray supporter. His possession metrics are awful, and by most metrics he is either the worst or among the worst in the league. Incidentally, Diaz is nearly a plus possession player and ranks 3rd among Habs D while facing tougher competition (Diaz is literally 20 shot attempts per 60 minutes better.) I know you're not a supporter of Therrien's system (nor am I), but that doesn't mean that personnel aren't a problem either. The problem is both personnel (Emelin, Murray) and systems (dump and chase). It's possible that Murray's possession numbers would look better under a better system, but that doesn't excuse him from being a huge gap worse than everyone else all while getting the easiest matchups and zone starts.

You believe puck possession is the key to the Habs' success. The stats guys agree. Why do you throw the possession metrics to the wayside when it comes to Murray? If he was such an effective checker and guys on the opposing team were so afraid of him, wouldn't that be demonstrated in the possession numbers? Shouldn't his physicality cause the opposing team to lose the puck?
 
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Hoople

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Mar 7, 2011
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For the umpteenth time, the logic behind Diaz and Beaulieu being mutually exclusive is the discussion here.

This trade was predicated on an idea that having Beaulieu and Diaz in the lineup was a problem, and that Murray is a core part of the D. That idea is concerning and trading away a guy like Diaz for a grinder to keep Murray in the lineup is a problem. It's on a smaller scale exactly what we saw the Leafs do when they shipped out Grabovski to bring in Bolland and have cap space for Clarkson. Dale Weise is an interchangable spare part, there isn't really much to say about him, he's big and fast, plays a fine 4th line game. He's not a player who will make or break your lineup so it's understandable there isn't much talk about him in the thread. He's not the point, the point is that Murray's play has in the eyes of management made Diaz expendable to the point of them being content to get a 4th liner for him.

As an aside, I don't know how you can champion puck possession so much, yet be such a Murray supporter. His possession metrics are awful, and by most metrics he is either the worst or among the worst in the league. Incidentally, Diaz is nearly a plus possession player and ranks 3rd among Habs D while facing tougher competition (Diaz is literally 20 shot attempts per 60 minutes better.) I know you're not a supporter of Therrien's system (nor am I), but that doesn't mean that personnel aren't a problem either. The problem is both personnel (Emelin, Murray) and systems (dump and chase). It's possible that Murray's possession numbers would look better under a better system, but that doesn't excuse him from being a huge gap worse than everyone else all while getting the easiest matchups and zone starts.

You believe puck possession is the key to the Habs' success. The stats guys agree. Why do you throw the possession metrics to the wayside when it comes to Murray? If he was such an effective checker and guys on the opposing team were so afraid of him, wouldn't that be demonstrated in the possession numbers? Shouldn't his physicality cause the opposing team to lose the puck?

One glaring problem with the premise of your post.

There are usually 3 forwards and 1 DMan who are on the ice the same time as Murray. Murray is not out there by himself.

Three shots on goal (while Murray is on the ice) against Carolina had Eller as Center.
Four shots on goal DD was Center.
Two shots on goal White was Center.
Three shots on goal Pleks was Center.

Can you give me the correlation between those shots, those lines and Murray? Or is it all Murray and none of the above allowing shots.

We were outshot by Carolina 32-24. Murray only played 13:58, of which 1:58 was on the PK.

The possession issues facing the Habs rise far above Murray.

You too will eventually overcome the pain of losing Diaz. Warm milk or beer will help you sleep at night. Time will be your best ally and friend.

Or you can simply watch Vancouver if you cannot overcome the grief.
 

Habs Icing

Formerly Onice
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You know what's awesome? You're expecting a sense of humour from a group that you're nebulously defining through labeling, gross generalization, stereotyping, and discrimination. You're all a credit to humanity for forming the church of anti-"Diazirites".



You know who else helped in those three wins? Subban, Plekanec, Gionta, Gorges, Markov, Emelin, Briere, Bourque, Prust, Gallagher, Desharnais, Bouillon, Beaulieu, and Murray - all of whom played more than Weise. And then there's White, who played less but brought more. But I wouldn't read too much into games against 2 non-playoff opponents, and another that is decimated by injuries to the point of possibly falling out of a competitive run in the West. Of course that's going to be the inclination, though.

As for a "happy Weise", he was happy at one point in Vancouver, too. Then he (mistakenly) thought he deserved more than a 4th line role. We'll see how long he stays happy down on Montreal's 4th line, because he isn't moving up as we get healthier. I certainly don't think he "sparked" White anymore than watching from the sidelines was already spurring him on as the team went on a 5-7-3 skid during the month he was out. But if it fits the agenda of the church, all shall believe.


I love the hubris of some fans. No years played in the NHL. No years spent in management jobs and yet when a minor trade like the Weise-Diaz comes around where the scales have to be scrutinized with a magnifying glass to notice a tip in one direction or another they somehow know better than a team of coaches, scouts & managers with at least 100 years of experience in the league.

If this coaching & management team had weaved a string of incompetent moves, I could understand the outcry. But it has not yet been a year and half and the team finished 3rd last year and they're in 4th place this year.

Get over yourself. This was the trade of a 7th - maybe 6th - defense man for a 4th liner. We didn't trade Shea Weber for Burrows.
 
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Ohashi_Jouzu*

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Apr 2, 2007
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I love the hubris of some fans. No years played in the NHL. No years spent in management jobs and yet when a minor trade like the Weise-Diaz comes around where the scales have to be scrutinized with a magnifying glass to notice a tip in one direction or another they somehow know better than a team of coaches, scouts & managers with at least 100 years of experience in the league.

Actually, half of my career has been management. And during the half that was teaching instead, I was coaching multiple sports teams. So... yeah.

If this coaching & management team had weaved a string of incompetent moves, I could understand the outcry. But it has not yet been a year and half and the team finished 3rd last year and they're in 4th place this year.

Not going to bother attempting to define "a string", but I've seen some posters have very little difficulty coming up with sizable lists of "legitimate" concerns/beefs. I think it could be worse, so whatever. I've got lots of slack to give Bergevin, but Therrien doesn't get so much from me, that's all I have to say on that. Bergevin had the last call on this one, though, and certainly, along with Therrien, could have handled this in a way that didn't impact Diaz's value so negatively.

Get over yourself. This was the trade of a 7th - maybe 6th - defense man for a 4th liner. We didn't trade Shea Weber for Burrows.

No, but we didn't unload Nathan McIver either. We unloaded the better player (who earned top 4 ice time among Montreal defensemen in each season since joining the NHL, btw, including last year when we were 1st in the division, and this year while we were just 3 points out of 1st) and a relative organizational strength (number of defensemen who can play decent minutes in any situation and move the puck) to add to the redundancy on our bottom line by way of another team's problem - all more than a month before the trade deadline.

And, like I said in the beginning, I've already watched Weise get disinterested in 4th line duties while in Vancouver, and seen where it landed him. Here's hoping this is one case where history doesn't repeat itself, but Weise really doesn't have anything that is going to keep him close to an NHL regular (even just on a 4th line) besides some speed, so for his (and our) sake it better be enough.
 

Kimota

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Nov 4, 2005
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I think the moment Therrien changed the style of this team this year you could see why someone like Murray would be more useful than Diaz. I thought last year Diaz was important in our counterstrike style, esp. with the idea of making sure the puck don't stay in our zone too long and it was attack attack attack. You needed guys that could carry the puck. But right now we have a more grinding defensive style wheras the Habs let guys easily enter our zone and then box them out. So it's much more time spent in our zone and for that you need big bodies to endure that. That's why Murray is so useful right now.

I have a theory that Therrien figured out that teams like the Caps under Boudreau didn't have much success in the playoffs with a offensive style and decided that what the Habs would need to go far was a defensive/grinding style. Not sure why they did the opposite last year, though. Maybe he wanted to please the fans for a more exciting brand of hockey just so fans and media would go easy on him? I have the feeling that many players rebelled against the new system this year(esp. Eller and Max Pac) and that is why things were all over the place. And when the players had their big meeting without the coach it was about this very thing: we hate the system but we're gonna play it anyway cause the coach is not gonna change. So let's soldier on and play it.
 

Habs Icing

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Jan 17, 2004
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Actually, half of my career has been management. And during the half that was teaching instead, I was coaching multiple sports teams. So... yeah.

Okay, so tell me you would play Diaz ahead of which defenseman:

Markov
Emelin
Subban
Gorges
Beaulieu

That list tells me Diaz slots into the lineup as a 6th d-man AT BEST and that's on a middle of the pack team . So we traded a 6th d-man for a 4th liner. Oh the horror.

I'll betcha that once Vancouver's defensemen return, Diaz will be watching the rest of the season from the pressbox.
 

bsl

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Oct 9, 2009
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Dale Weise is like adding a second Prust. I think hes vastly underrated and could become our full time checking RWer.

He costed us a right-sided D that we already had excess of (Subban, Emelin, Beaulieu) and weren't using. Plus we are 3-0 since acquiring him and no offense to Diaz but Vancouver hasn't won a game with him on the first pairing.

Emelin is a natural left D.
 

Jesse Alexander

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Feb 6, 2014
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Okay, so tell me you would play Diaz ahead of which defenseman:

Markov
Emelin
Subban
Gorges
Beaulieu

That list tells me Diaz slots into the lineup as a 6th d-man AT BEST and that's on a middle of the pack team . So we traded a 6th d-man for a 4th liner. Oh the horror.

I'll betcha that once Vancouver's defensemen return, Diaz will be watching the rest of the season from the pressbox.

From the perspective of Beaulieu's development, keeping Diaz might have meant that Beaulieu get's Murray's easy 5-on-5 minutes.
 

bsl

Registered User
Oct 9, 2009
10,123
3,350
Dude. Put Subban against the opposition Murray is facing and his GA would drop significantly. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Given the same opponents, PK owns Murray. And having such a high average for GA while being sheltered versus the weakest opponents is really bad.


Btw, there is no ''hate''. The guy sucks and if you can't see it with your eyes, the stats show it very clearly.

Sigh. The guy is saying that in their respective roles, Murray is performing to his extent, and Subban is performing to his extent.

A good Chrysler does it's job, and a good Ferrari does it's job.
 

PricePkPatch*

Guest
Sigh. The guy is saying that in their respective roles, Murray is performing to his extent, and Subban is performing to his extent.

A good Chrysler does it's job, and a good Ferrari does it's job.

I personally think that Subban could perform better
 

Ezpz

No mad pls
Apr 16, 2013
14,925
11,090
Emelin is a natural left D.

Subban is the only natural RD on our entire team now that Diaz is gone. Not sure what that guy was talking about. Even all our RD prospects are iffy to be NHLers with Thrower, Ellis, Dietz and Nygren.
 

Jesse Alexander

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Feb 6, 2014
106
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I think the moment Therrien changed the style of this team this year you could see why someone like Murray would be more useful than Diaz. I thought last year Diaz was important in our counterstrike style, esp. with the idea of making sure the puck don't stay in our zone too long and it was attack attack attack. You needed guys that could carry the puck. But right now we have a more grinding defensive style wheras the Habs let guys easily enter our zone and then box them out. So it's much more time spent in our zone and for that you need big bodies to endure that. That's why Murray is so useful right now.

I have a theory that Therrien figured out that teams like the Caps under Boudreau didn't have much success in the playoffs with a offensive style and decided that what the Habs would need to go far was a defensive/grinding style. Not sure why they did the opposite last year, though. Maybe he wanted to please the fans for a more exciting brand of hockey just so fans and media would go easy on him? I have the feeling that many players rebelled against the new system this year(esp. Eller and Max Pac) and that is why things were all over the place. And when the players had their big meeting without the coach it was about this very thing: we hate the system but we're gonna play it anyway cause the coach is not gonna change. So let's soldier on and play it.

Well, MT needs to change his system back to possession hockey because the Habs are bleeding pretty bad compared to last year:

Through 48 games in 2013-14 the Habs had 14 less GF and 12 more GA. That's a stunning -26 in just over half a season.
 

Jesse Alexander

Registered User
Feb 6, 2014
106
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Sigh. The guy is saying that in their respective roles, Murray is performing to his extent, and Subban is performing to his extent.

A good Chrysler does it's job, and a good Ferrari does it's job.

Unless that Chrysler is a Dodge Caravan with ****ed transmission.
 

habalifeok

Registered User
Oct 28, 2013
889
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I personally like the way the 4th line is playing. Back in the day I couldnt get enough of Risebrough,Lambert and Tremblay. Of course today we dont have a line that could compare to Lafleur,Lemaire and Schutt either. Hope the White line continues to help.
Im not much for the stats and have faith in the staff of the Habs that spends all season in the rinks around the country evaluating talent.
Is there anyone better than Dudley,Lapointe and Timmins at this?

Bergevin has also hired a coach to keep Carey at the top of his game.

Now its time for the coach to instill some confidence in Galchenyuk at the center position.

Anyone notice how Beaulieu head mans the puck?
Bourque seems to have regained some confidence.

Of course all the arm chair Gming is amusing.
 
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