UPDATE 3/31- NEWSDAY - Coliseum gets $6M for renovation to host Isles

[Melrose Munch]

They aren't getting kicked out of MSG. The reason they have such a sweetheart deal from the city to be in that very spot is because no one wants to the mayor who loses a team.

I would be curious to see how MSG/Oakview worked out the numbers to show there is enough non-hockey business requiring 17-18K sears left over from MSG that they could get out there while under-bidding Barclays.

Actually the sweetheart deal is because Ed Koch got suckered into giving MSG a perpetual property tax exemption when he thought it was actually a 10-year exemption. I wouldn't be surprised if MSG wrote the language in the bylaw verbatim.

But the city has control if they choose to exercise it because you need a renewable permit to operate a venue over 5000 seats. The city can yank that permit at any expiration point.

I know they have the right to, but do you really see the city pushing the Knicks and Rangers out of MSG? They will get at least another 10 years after this first 10 years is up. The place gets a redo every 20 years or so. The last one before this was 1991 so a 10 year extension would be right on track.

It has a growing opposition by legislators whom are pushing for the Refurbishment/Expanding of Penn Station as NY continues outgrowing its transit hubs. I think its becoming a real concern with the Grand Central Station expansion that there needs to be further infrastructure improvements. I agree that it would be a great loss of an Icon like MSG but its harder to move the train Station. Its a real conundrum and legitimate argument.

They'll never push them out because they don't have the money. The city would have to buy out the real estate easily over a billion and then find a replacement site, and then plow the other billions into building a new Penn Station so people can have a little more sunlight in the 5 minutes they blow through there.

But I do envision the city refusing to renew the venue permit if the garden doesn't give up its preferential tax breaks

I thought they reached a compromise where MSG gave up the adjoining theater?

That's a deal with the State, Dolan & Cuomo, to avoid relocation. Things could change with a new governor, I doubt this latest reno goes through. But Dolan has made no new deal with the city, the council/mayor can refuse to renew the permit at any time if they wanted to

We'll see I think if DeBlasio is still there the will be an issue, if someone else is in, I think the issue will be dead.

This again. It has been beaten to death on here. Dolan offered years ago to move across to the Farley Building and renovate it into a new MSG and the powers that be dragged their butts just like those out in Nassau County did. The city council can try to strong-arm dolan by not renewing the permit, his lawyers will get an injunction preventing them from doing so and tie this up in court for years. If they want to get him out to fix penn station, their only option is to buy the building from him and give him enough time to get a new arena built in Manhattan.

Or Dolan can simply move the Rangers and Knicks to Belmont along with the Islanders if he's forced out...

 

[Fenway]

This again. It has been beaten to death on here. Dolan offered years ago to move across to the Farley Building and renovate it into a new MSG and the powers that be dragged their butts just like those out in Nassau County did. The city council can try to strong-arm dolan by not renewing the permit, his lawyers will get an injunction preventing them from doing so and tie this up in court for years. If they want to get him out to fix penn station, their only option is to buy the building from him and give him enough time to get a new arena built in Manhattan.

Any solution to fix train travel in Manhattan is going to cost billions. A tunnel connecting Grand Central with New Jersey would allow Amtrak to get out of Penn Station and perhaps offer NJ Transit service as well but the cost would be astronomical. Just look at how much the 7 line extension to Hudson Yards and the Second Avenue subway have cost. Over 100 years ago the Pennsylvania and New York Central could not agree on a central union station in Manhattan like other cities did and a connection between GCT and Penn was not done.

The Islanders core problem can best be explained by my friend Roy who lives in Kew Gardens, Queens. Even though as the pigeon flies NVMC was closer to him he became a Devils STH as between the LIRR and NJ Transit he can get to Newark more quickly than he could to Uniondale. He blames Robert Moses' refusal to extend the subway in Queens to the Nassau border as the main culprit.

 

[Steve55]

Barclay's will opt out of the lease after 2 seasons that forces them to pay the Islanders $55M per year (they keep all ticket sales, they thought they would make money put are probably losing $20M+ each year). I'm sure Barclay's would keep them under more favorable terms as a bridge to a new arena, but the Islanders would be the ones losing money. If there's a new arena coming that's probably fine, but IMO there will be no arena. Belmont makes absolutely no sense, the economics make no sense

Then how would anything other than an arena or an MLS stadium beat a bid with either one, https://esd.ny.gov/sites/default/files/rfp/Belmont RFP.pdf

'IV. DEVELOPMENT OBJECTIVES
Proposals should strive to address the following development objectives (the “Development
Objectivesâ€):
 Enhance Belmont Park to become one of Long Island’s premier destinations for entertainment,
sports, hospitality and retail, with uses that are complementary to the existing Belmont Park
racetrack
 Maximize economic benefit to the State while minimizing the State’s economic and
environmental risk;..

Page 8'

If Belmont gets rejected, Isles/Mets/Oak View will likely look at the Citi Field parking lot

 

[GordonGecko]

where do you think the money is going to come from for this arena by the way?

 

[patnyrnyg]

Any solution to fix train travel in Manhattan is going to cost billions. A tunnel connecting Grand Central with New Jersey would allow Amtrak to get out of Penn Station and perhaps offer NJ Transit service as well but the cost would be astronomical. Just look at how much the 7 line extension to Hudson Yards and the Second Avenue subway have cost. Over 100 years ago the Pennsylvania and New York Central could not agree on a central union station in Manhattan like other cities did and a connection between GCT and Penn was not done.

The Islanders core problem can best be explained by my friend Roy who lives in Kew Gardens, Queens. Even though as the pigeon flies NVMC was closer to him he became a Devils STH as between the LIRR and NJ Transit he can get to Newark more quickly than he could to Uniondale. He blames Robert Moses' refusal to extend the subway in Queens to the Nassau border as the main culprit.

What does this have to do with Belmont?

 

[Fenway]

What does this have to do with Belmont?

It's all indirectly related. Dolan seems interested in investing in an arena at Belmont and it might down the road offer an escape hatch if MSG is shutdown.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Any solution to fix train travel in Manhattan is going to cost billions. A tunnel connecting Grand Central with New Jersey would allow Amtrak to get out of Penn Station and perhaps offer NJ Transit service as well but the cost would be astronomical. Just look at how much the 7 line extension to Hudson Yards and the Second Avenue subway have cost. Over 100 years ago the Pennsylvania and New York Central could not agree on a central union station in Manhattan like other cities did and a connection between GCT and Penn was not done.

The Islanders core problem can best be explained by my friend Roy who lives in Kew Gardens, Queens. Even though as the pigeon flies NVMC was closer to him he became a Devils STH as between the LIRR and NJ Transit he can get to Newark more quickly than he could to Uniondale. He blames Robert Moses' refusal to extend the subway in Queens to the Nassau border as the main culprit.

Robert Moses had his vision of NYC & others be damned. The city would be quite a different place if Moses had powerful enough opposition. I personally know several Brooklyn Dodger fans who still hiss at the mention of his name. Where the Barclays Center is today, is exactly where Walter O'Malley wanted to build a new Ebbets Field. Clearly the perfect location for all the fans who lived in Brooklyn & the ones who had migrated to Nassau County. Moses wanted no part of that. It was Flushing Meadow or bust.

Obviously Moses won out, but it's pretty clear today that O'Malley chose a pretty good spot for a new stadium. Barclays is in the perfect location.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Robert Moses had his vision of NYC & others be damned. The city would be quite a different place if Moses had powerful enough opposition. I personally know several Brooklyn Dodger fans who still hiss at the mention of his name. Where the Barclays Center is today, is exactly where Walter O'Malley wanted to build a new Ebbets Field. Clearly the perfect location for all the fans who lived in Brooklyn & the ones who had migrated to Nassau County. Moses wanted no part of that. It was Flushing Meadow or bust.

Obviously Moses won out, but it's pretty clear today that O'Malley chose a pretty good spot for a new stadium. Barclays is in the perfect location.

What is amazing is Robert Moses was NEVER elected to a public office, but somehow was one of the most powerful people in NY politics.

Actually, with the Dodgers, he didn't want to give them anything. He thought O'Malley was bluffing, then it got out that O'Malley was in serious talks to buy the land in LA and that is when Moses offered the land that became Shea. O'Malley was ready to BUY the land in downtown Brooklyn. Wanted the city to take it through eminent domain and then sell it to O'Malley. He was going to pay for the new stadium, too.

 

[patnyrnyg]

We'll see I think if DeBlasio is still there the will be an issue, if someone else is in, I think the issue will be dead.

DeBlasio is a one and done, but that is a different discussion.

Or Dolan can simply move the Rangers and Knicks to Belmont along with the Islanders if he's forced out...

It's all indirectly related. Dolan seems interested in investing in an arena at Belmont and it might down the road offer an escape hatch if MSG is shutdown.

They can try to force him out all they want, it will take years for it to actually happen. His lawyers are not going to be those that barely graduated law school and are having trouble finding jobs.

 

[Boris Zubov]

What is amazing is Robert Moses was NEVER elected to a public office, but somehow was one of the most powerful people in NY politics.

He must've had a J Edgar Hoover file on anyone powerful or influential in NYC politics or society.

There's a book called The Power Broker about Moses I'd like to read, but I need to mentally prepare myself to dedicate the time. It's over 1100 pages.

 

[Fenway]

Robert Moses had his vision of NYC & others be damned. The city would be quite a different place if Moses had powerful enough opposition. I personally know several Brooklyn Dodger fans who still hiss at the mention of his name. Where the Barclays Center is today, is exactly where Walter O'Malley wanted to build a new Ebbets Field. Clearly the perfect location for all the fans who lived in Brooklyn & the ones who had migrated to Nassau County. Moses wanted no part of that. It was Flushing Meadow or bust.

Obviously Moses won out, but it's pretty clear today that O'Malley chose a pretty good spot for a new stadium. Barclays is in the perfect location.

Moses even blocked a subway extension to LaGuardia - what today is the N and W lines could easily have continued to LGA. A subway extension to what is now JFK was scrapped as well. The original plan was using the median strip of the Van Wyck for the trains.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Moses even blocked a subway extension to LaGuardia - what today is the N and W lines could easily have continued to LGA. A subway extension to what is now JFK was scrapped as well. The original plan was using the median strip of the Van Wyck for the trains.

Belief was Moses was an elitist, didn't want "poor people" to be able to travel easily to the parks and beaches in the suburbs, or even move out there.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Barclay's will opt out of the lease after 2 seasons that forces them to pay the Islanders $55M per year (they keep all ticket sales, they thought they would make money put are probably losing $20M+ each year). I'm sure Barclay's would keep them under more favorable terms as a bridge to a new arena, but the Islanders would be the ones losing money. If there's a new arena coming that's probably fine, but IMO there will be no arena. Belmont makes absolutely no sense, the economics make no sense

Then how would anything other than an arena or an MLS stadium beat a bid with either one, https://esd.ny.gov/sites/default/files/rfp/Belmont RFP.pdf

'IV. DEVELOPMENT OBJECTIVES
Proposals should strive to address the following development objectives (the “Development
Objectivesâ€):
 Enhance Belmont Park to become one of Long Island’s premier destinations for entertainment,
sports, hospitality and retail, with uses that are complementary to the existing Belmont Park
racetrack
 Maximize economic benefit to the State while minimizing the State’s economic and
environmental risk;..

Page 8'

If Belmont gets rejected, Isles/Mets/Oak View will likely look at the Citi Field parking lot

where do you think the money is going to come from for this arena by the way?

That's what I want to know...who's paying for this?

 

[Melrose Munch]

DeBlasio is a one and done, but that is a different discussion.





They can try to force him out all they want, it will take years for it to actually happen. His lawyers are not going to be those that barely graduated law school and are having trouble finding jobs.

Right but ironically that would take care of my previous post, which was about funding.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Belief was Moses was an elitist, didn't want "poor people" to be able to travel easily to the parks and beaches in the suburbs, or even move out there.

Even built the parkway bridges too low for buses to be able to travel under them to keep that "element" out of the parks & beaches. What a piece of work he was.

 

[DaleCooper]

There's a book called The Power Broker about Moses I'd like to read, but I need to mentally prepare myself to dedicate the time. It's over 1100 pages.

The book is a monster to be sure (and there's no e-book version so you have to lug the thing around), but it's a riveting read. Entertaining as far as biographies go, fascinating, and horrifying. What is surprising is how Moses starts out as a hero (fighting to rid government of corruption, taking on the Long Island robber barons to build parks and beaches) then gradually turns into the villain, causing damage to the urban fabric of the region that will take hundreds of years to undo.

 

[aqib]

We'll see I think if DeBlasio is still there the will be an issue, if someone else is in, I think the issue will be dead.


Or Dolan can simply move the Rangers and Knicks to Belmont along with the Islanders if he's forced out...

I doubt DeBlasio will want to be the mayor that drove the Knicks, Rangers, and every major concert out of Manhattan.

If Dolan went to Belmont it would basically cut him off from fans in Westchester, CT, and Jersey. Not going to happen.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I doubt DeBlasio will want to be the mayor that drove the Knicks, Rangers, and every major concert out of Manhattan.

If Dolan went to Belmont it would basically cut him off from fans in Westchester, CT, and Jersey. Not going to happen.

Would it? They would still be the number one fan. The islanders are cutting themselves off from a growing fanbase in those areas too by going to belmont. This just seems like an escape for Penn Station.

 

[aqib]

Do not include Arthur Ashe, Forest Hill, Red Bull, Jones Beach, or Izod (which is closed) in the equation. Giants stadium is for the BIG acts. Yankee Stadium and Citi Field host very little outside of their respective teams. They are not a major player for concerts. Yes, they have a few, not many. Jones Beach is exclusively a summer venue. Renovated Nassau Coliseum is small. There are enough acts and enough people that can do a night at MSG, Barclays, Prudential, and a new arena in Belmont and sell them all out.

I can only think of a handful that could sell out more than 2 of the arenas. You've got Springsteen, Billy Joel, and U2 (who mainly does stadium shoes). In all the years I lived in NY I don't recall any acts that did Meadowlands, MSG, and Nassau on one visit. That was the reason why NJ closed Izod. 2 arenas that close together were just killing each other.

 

[GordonGecko]

That was the reason why NJ closed Izod. 2 arenas that close together were just killing each other.

Well actually Christie closed Izod because his buddy Jerry Jones runs the concessions business (along with the Yankees) over at Prudential Center, but that's a whole other discussion

 

[patnyrnyg]

I can only think of a handful that could sell out more than 2 of the arenas. You've got Springsteen, Billy Joel, and U2 (who mainly does stadium shoes). In all the years I lived in NY I don't recall any acts that did Meadowlands, MSG, and Nassau on one visit. That was the reason why NJ closed Izod. 2 arenas that close together were just killing each other.

I can. I remember in Jr High girls in my school going to New Kids in all 3 venues. The boy band that pops up in the next 5 years will be able to do the same. Metallica and bands like Motley Crue back in the day would do all 3.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Right but ironically that would take care of my previous post, which was about funding.

Don't know, don't care about funding. I was just reffering to the viability of another arena in the area. I vaguely remember reading the Isles owners have the funding ready, but I could be wrong.

 

[Fenway]

The book is a monster to be sure (and there's no e-book version so you have to lug the thing around), but it's a riveting read. Entertaining as far as biographies go, fascinating, and horrifying. What is surprising is how Moses starts out as a hero (fighting to rid government of corruption, taking on the Long Island robber barons to build parks and beaches) then gradually turns into the villain, causing damage to the urban fabric of the region that will take hundreds of years to undo.

He also had his fingers in the building of the St Lawrence Seaway and using Niagara Falls to generate electricity.

http://buffalonews.com/2007/04/29/r...gh-construction-of-the-niagara-power-project/

A great what if concerns why Moses did not convince the Giants to move to Flushing and let O'Malley fend for himself in Brooklyn. O'Malley needed Horace Stoneham to move to San Francisco which while it was a decent market it did not compare to Los Angeles. I read once account that O'Malley knew he had to act quickly on LA as Del Webb and Dan Topping owners of the Yankees were looking at LA as well as they were worried about the decay in the Bronx which O'Malley was concerned about in Brooklyn. If Stoneham had stayed in New York who knows how it would have played out.

 

[patnyrnyg]

He also had his fingers in the building of the St Lawrence Seaway and using Niagara Falls to generate electricity.

http://buffalonews.com/2007/04/29/r...gh-construction-of-the-niagara-power-project/

A great what if concerns why Moses did not convince the Giants to move to Flushing and let O'Malley fend for himself in Brooklyn. O'Malley needed Horace Stoneham to move to San Francisco which while it was a decent market it did not compare to Los Angeles. I read once account that O'Malley knew he had to act quickly on LA as Del Webb and Dan Topping owners of the Yankees were looking at LA as well as they were worried about the decay in the Bronx which O'Malley was concerned about in Brooklyn. If Stoneham had stayed in New York who knows how it would have played out.

Stoneham was also in discussion to go to Minnesota. Giants, from what I understand, had become the clear 3rd team in the market and wanted out, with or without O'Malley.

 

[MJF]

where do you think the money is going to come from for this arena by the way?

Majority privately financed. Malkin & Ledecky, Sterling Equities and Oak View Group should be the investors.