UPDATE 3/31- NEWSDAY - Coliseum gets $6M for renovation to host Isles

[Steve55]

Well, first off, the building sucked since the day it opened.

And they didn't "draw flies" or "struggle" in the 80s. They "only" drew about 15,700 in the 1980s... which was their capacity.

Keep in mind that 15,000 to 16,000 was EXCELLENT for the time period. The Montreal Dynasty and the Islanders Dynasty had about the same attendance numbers.

But sports as entertainment evolved. Times changed. In the 1990s, almost everyone had built newer, bigger arenas with massive revenue streams (Allowing the attendance in BOS, MON, TOR, VAN, PHI to go to 18000 to 23000.

And the Islanders were locked into a terrible lease, that didn't give them any of the new revenue streams (they signed it when ads weren't allowed on the boards or ice, and a couple scoreboards told time and score).

Now they "don't draw" in Brooklyn because all 10000 good seats are full and the remaining 4000 seats in that building are garbage.

If some crazy rich guy could buy the Mets & Islanders and build an NHL arena like Edmonton's new place in the CitiField parking lot, the Islanders would be a top 10 revenue team. Period.

But when you don't control your arena, you're screwed.

If Belmont RFP fails, the Isles may look at the Citi Field Parking lot as their No.1 option, although litigation will likely drag it out over the years. The difference is that Belmont may be solved quickly but that can also mean swift rejection since Isles have to win the current bid, while Citi Field parking lot is not up for an RFP

 

[Melrose Munch]

TBF, that's also partially because Pitt football [MOD] doesn't draw ****.

True points.

 

[leeroggy]

There's so much else wrong and it starts at the top. New owners fit right in.

You do know about the Belmont RFP, right?

 

[GordonGecko]

You do know about the Belmont RFP, right?

New York State wants to upgrade and develop the large parcels of land around Belmont Race track. The RFP (request for proposals) is to solicit ideas for projects to make the best use of that land. I don't see the Islanders winning a bid for yet another arena in the tri-state area, there's just so much glut in the region already. Unfortunately after Barclay's ends the lease in two years the most likely outcome is the team moving out of NY. Barclay's could always keep the team under more favorable terms to them, but the Islanders would start to bleed cash again and I don't know how much appetite the current owners have for that

 

[leeroggy]

New York State wants to upgrade and develop the large parcels of land around Belmont Race track. The RFP (request for proposals) is to solicit ideas for projects to make the best use of that land. I don't see the Islanders winning a bid for yet another arena in the tri-state area, there's just so much glut in the region already. Unfortunately after Barclay's ends the lease in two years the most likely outcome is the team moving out of NY. Barclay's could always keep the team under more favorable terms to them, but the Islanders would start to bleed cash again and I don't know how much appetite the current owners have for that

You're WAY off. The Isles bid fits the RFP DETAILS, which you should read before assuming anything. Their bid is actually in tandem with the Dolans. That area is getting redeveloped and the combination of a hockey arena on the 24 acre lot and an entertainment area of restaurants, etc, similar to what Gulfstream Park did down here in South Florida, which would be centrally placed between the train station, the track and the new arena will be the winning approach.

If you think that this is going to be developed as another shopping mall or a stadium for the NY Cosmos you are kidding yourself. You need to read deeper than just that there is an RFP process starting. READ THE RFP itself, it lays out that the project MUST be SPORTS ORIENTED. That means either an arena or a stadium. The RFP was specifically written by the State to make the arena the FAVORED approach. The added benefit of the entertainment center is to make the project far more feasible financially.

 

[BMOK33]

You're WAY off. The Isles bid fits the RFP DETAILS, which you should read before assuming anything. Their bid is actually in tandem with the Dolans. That area is getting redeveloped and the combination of a hockey arena on the 24 acre lot and an entertainment area of restaurants, etc, similar to what Gulfstream Park did down here in South Florida, which would be centrally placed between the train station, the track and the new arena will be the winning approach.

If you think that this is going to be developed as another shopping mall or a stadium for the NY Cosmos you are kidding yourself. You need to read deeper than just that there is an RFP process starting. READ THE RFP itself, it lays out that the project MUST be SPORTS ORIENTED. That means either an arena or a stadium. The RFP was specifically written by the State to make the arena the FAVORED approach. The added benefit of the entertainment center is to make the project far more feasible financially.

The Isles will win the bid. I would say it's 85-15. The 15 is that the soccer team wins it. However, I still expect the possibility some sort of issue develops after they win it that holds the process up for ages like the citizens protesting or the county suing the state or something of that nature

 

[GordonGecko]

If you think that this is going to be developed as another shopping mall or a stadium for the NY Cosmos you are kidding yourself. You need to read deeper than just that there is an RFP process starting. READ THE RFP itself, it lays out that the project MUST be SPORTS ORIENTED. That means either an arena or a stadium. The RFP was specifically written by the State to make the arena the FAVORED approach. The added benefit of the entertainment center is to make the project far more feasible financially.

I realize you're wearing your heart on your sleeve on this one but put down the rose colored glasses for a second. The RFP (https://www.scribd.com/document/355101992/Belmont-Request-for-Proposals) in no way shape or form states the project "MUST" be sports oriented, let alone a professional grade arena, and I quote:

"Respondents are encouraged to include proposals for the development of entertainment, sports, recreation, hospitality, and retail uses."

"Passive or active recreational use is required on the southern portion of Site B. Recreational uses may include a park, sports fields and/or indoor recreation facility."

They're going to build whatever makes sense including convention center, public sports facilities, or even multiplex movie theaters & bowling alleys. Another arena makes absolutely no sense. We already have MSG, Barclay's, Prudential Center, Arthur Ashe Stadium, Renovated NMVC, Jones Beach Theater, Citi Field, Forest Hill Stadium, New Yankee Stadium, Metlife Stadium, IZod Center, Red Bull Arena, not to mention the hundred smaller theaters.

 

[leeroggy]

I realize you're wearing your heart on your sleeve on this one but put down the rose colored glasses for a second. The RFP (https://www.scribd.com/document/355101992/Belmont-Request-for-Proposals) in no way shape or form states the project "MUST" be sports oriented, let alone a professional grade arena, and I quote:

"Respondents are encouraged to include proposals for the development of entertainment, sports, recreation, hospitality, and retail uses."

"Passive or active recreational use is required on the southern portion of Site B. Recreational uses may include a park, sports fields and/or indoor recreation facility."

They're going to build whatever makes sense including convention center, public sports facilities, or even multiplex movie theaters & bowling alleys. Another arena makes absolutely no sense. We already have MSG, Barclay's, Prudential Center, Arthur Ashe Stadium, Renovated NMVC, Jones Beach Theater, Citi Field, New Yankee Stadium, Metlife Stadium, IZod Center, Red Bull Arena, not to mention the hundred smaller theaters.

Yeah, I'm sure the STATE is going to okay Little League baseball diamonds, bowling alleys and multiplex theaters on this lot instead . . . no one is spending big money on an RFP to build something that will cost $20 million tops to build. i'm sure baseball and soccer fields for the youth will win that idea!

You don't build a convention center without a LOT of local hotel space in the area and a lot more public transportation to the site than the end of the rail spur.

You even manage to kill your own argument . . . MSG has two teams but that's it when the Isles leave Barclays.

Prudential = Devils ONLY
Barclays = Nets ONLY
Citi Field = Mets ONLY
Yankee Stadium = Yankees
Red Bull is not a comparable.

Met Life WAS NOT DESIGNED to host both the Jets and the Giants if the Hudson Yards area was allowed to build the Jets stadium.

Arthur Ashe Stadium?? How is that comparable? It's basically a TWO WEEK gig!

The refurbished NVMC? Refurbished for WHAT? Wrestling? Roller Derby?

 

[aqib]

Be honest, what do you think here? Can this work? How do we know it's not a trojan horse for when the Rangers/Knicks/Liberty get kicked out of MSG in 10 years?

They aren't getting kicked out of MSG. The reason they have such a sweetheart deal from the city to be in that very spot is because no one wants to the mayor who loses a team.

I would be curious to see how MSG/Oakview worked out the numbers to show there is enough non-hockey business requiring 17-18K sears left over from MSG that they could get out there while under-bidding Barclays.

 

[GordonGecko]

They aren't getting kicked out of MSG. The reason they have such a sweetheart deal from the city to be in that very spot is because no one wants to the mayor who loses a team.

Actually the sweetheart deal is because Ed Koch got suckered into giving MSG a perpetual property tax exemption when he thought it was actually a 10-year exemption. I wouldn't be surprised if MSG wrote the language in the bylaw verbatim.

But the city has control if they choose to exercise it because you need a renewable permit to operate a venue over 5000 seats. The city can yank that permit at any expiration point.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Yeah, I'm sure the STATE is going to okay Little League baseball diamonds, bowling alleys and multiplex theaters on this lot instead . . . no one is spending big money on an RFP to build something that will cost $20 million tops to build. i'm sure baseball and soccer fields for the youth will win that idea!

You don't build a convention center without a LOT of local hotel space in the area and a lot more public transportation to the site than the end of the rail spur.

You even manage to kill your own argument . . . MSG has two teams but that's it when the Isles leave Barclays.

Prudential = Devils ONLY
Barclays = Nets ONLY
Citi Field = Mets ONLY
Yankee Stadium = Yankees
Red Bull is not a comparable.

Met Life WAS NOT DESIGNED to host both the Jets and the Giants if the Hudson Yards area was allowed to build the Jets stadium.

Arthur Ashe Stadium?? How is that comparable? It's basically a TWO WEEK gig!

The refurbished NVMC? Refurbished for WHAT? Wrestling? Roller Derby?

Not to split hairs, but the plan for Metlife was conceived & developed by both teams only after the West Side Stadium was defeated. It was at that point the Jets & the Giants decided to team up on a new stadium. Metlife wasn't in process when the Jets decided to hop aboard.

 

[aqib]

Actually the sweetheart deal is because Ed Koch got suckered into giving MSG a perpetual property tax exemption when he thought it was actually a 10-year exemption. I wouldn't be surprised if MSG wrote the language in the bylaw verbatim.

But the city has control if they choose to exercise it because you need a renewable permit to operate a venue over 5000 seats. The city can yank that permit at any expiration point.

I know they have the right to, but do you really see the city pushing the Knicks and Rangers out of MSG? They will get at least another 10 years after this first 10 years is up. The place gets a redo every 20 years or so. The last one before this was 1991 so a 10 year extension would be right on track.

 

[KrisBeKreame]

I know they have the right to, but do you really see the city pushing the Knicks and Rangers out of MSG? They will get at least another 10 years after this first 10 years is up. The place gets a redo every 20 years or so. The last one before this was 1991 so a 10 year extension would be right on track.

It has a growing opposition by legislators whom are pushing for the Refurbishment/Expanding of Penn Station as NY continues outgrowing its transit hubs. I think its becoming a real concern with the Grand Central Station expansion that there needs to be further infrastructure improvements. I agree that it would be a great loss of an Icon like MSG but its harder to move the train Station. Its a real conundrum and legitimate argument.

 

[GordonGecko]

I know they have the right to, but do you really see the city pushing the Knicks and Rangers out of MSG? They will get at least another 10 years after this first 10 years is up. The place gets a redo every 20 years or so. The last one before this was 1991 so a 10 year extension would be right on track.

It has a growing opposition by legislators whom are pushing for the Refurbishment/Expanding of Penn Station as NY continues outgrowing its transit hubs. I think its becoming a real concern with the Grand Central Station expansion that there needs to be further infrastructure improvements. I agree that it would be a great loss of an Icon like MSG but its harder to move the train Station. Its a real conundrum and legitimate argument.

They'll never push them out because they don't have the money. The city would have to buy out the real estate easily over a billion and then find a replacement site, and then plow the other billions into building a new Penn Station so people can have a little more sunlight in the 5 minutes they blow through there.

But I do envision the city refusing to renew the venue permit if the garden doesn't give up its preferential tax breaks

 

[LordNeverLose]

Belmont would be an absolute disaster way worse than Brooklyn, there is nothing around that immediate area and I mean NOTHING, no bars no restaurants no hotels, it is literally a waste land, why on earth would you spend over 800 million on an arena in the most desolate place on Long Island? at least in Uniondale there are some bars/restaurants to go to before a game, the reality is that NYC cannot support 3 NHL franchises.

I have lived here my whole life and have been following hockey since 1979 and no one cares about this sport at all in this area, the Rangers survive based on history, location, generational support and tourism in Manhattan.

In the end the Isles will be in Quebec or Seattle..it's definitely going to happen

Maybe I'm in the minority here but I don't give a **** if there are restaurants or bars around a stadium.

 

[Steve55]

The Isles will win the bid. I would say it's 85-15. The 15 is that the soccer team wins it. However, I still expect the possibility some sort of issue develops after they win it that holds the process up for ages like the citizens protesting or the county suing the state or something of that nature

I think NYCFC may bid because they were allegedly talking to NYS about building a soccer stadium in January.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ner-dolan-said-to-back-new-home-for-islanders

24 February 2017, 09:30 GMT-8

The new arena proposal is a joint venture between the Islanders, Oak View Group and Sterling Project Development, said the people, who asked to be anonymous because the talks are private...

the parties have switched their focus to in the Belmont site in Elmont, New York, which is controlled by the New York Racing Authority and sits about 19 miles east of Manhattan, just outside of Queens...

Major League Soccer’s New York City Football Club, which is part-owned by the New York Yankees, has also expressed interest in having its own, soccer-specific stadium at the Belmont site. NYCFC participated in site development talks last month, though those negotiations aren’t active, one of the people said.

Chances are NYS and the team of Isles/Mets/Oak View talked in February and their negotiations have been inactive since. I would imagine NYS talked to several interested developers for 1 month at a time; NYCFC talked in January, while Isles/Mets/Oak View did in February.

 

[aqib]

They'll never push them out because they don't have the money. The city would have to buy out the real estate easily over a billion and then find a replacement site, and then plow the other billions into building a new Penn Station so people can have a little more sunlight in the 5 minutes they blow through there.

But I do envision the city refusing to renew the venue permit if the garden doesn't give up its preferential tax breaks

I thought they reached a compromise where MSG gave up the adjoining theater?

 

[GordonGecko]

I thought they reached a compromise where MSG gave up the adjoining theater?

That's a deal with the State, Dolan & Cuomo, to avoid relocation. Things could change with a new governor, I doubt this latest reno goes through. But Dolan has made no new deal with the city, the council/mayor can refuse to renew the permit at any time if they wanted to

 

[Ciao]

On relative scale it is. Pittsburgh would never put the NBA over the NHL which is the case in New York.

Good thing.

I can't even think of the name of the Steel City's NBA franchise. By comparison, the Penguins are huge.

 

[Jeffrey93]

What's the timeline on this? Aren't they getting the boot relatively soon? Meaning....finding a location, financing and then construction.....don't they have to be out of Barclays before the typical....I dunno....1-2 year planning/financing and 1-3 year build?

That's if everything goes smoothly.

I mean...at the end of the day...ownership COULD just buy property and pay for the arena themselves.....which would speed this up incredibly. But, that's not going to happen.

 

[GordonGecko]

What's the timeline on this? Aren't they getting the boot relatively soon? Meaning....finding a location, financing and then construction.....don't they have to be out of Barclays before the typical....I dunno....1-2 year planning/financing and 1-3 year build?

That's if everything goes smoothly.

I mean...at the end of the day...ownership COULD just buy property and pay for the arena themselves.....which would speed this up incredibly. But, that's not going to happen.

Barclay's will opt out of the lease after 2 seasons that forces them to pay the Islanders $55M per year (they keep all ticket sales, they thought they would make money put are probably losing $20M+ each year). I'm sure Barclay's would keep them under more favorable terms as a bridge to a new arena, but the Islanders would be the ones losing money. If there's a new arena coming that's probably fine, but IMO there will be no arena. Belmont makes absolutely no sense, the economics make no sense

 

[Fenway]

That's a deal with the State, Dolan & Cuomo, to avoid relocation. Things could change with a new governor, I doubt this latest reno goes through. But Dolan has made no new deal with the city, the council/mayor can refuse to renew the permit at any time if they wanted to

55 years ago everybody in New York City thought the railroads were dying. Today Penn Station is a miserable place to get in and out of and it needs to be fixed and it also needs to be adjacent to the subway. The key is the Farley Post Office and it remains to be seen if they can get this done and leave MSG alone.

https://ny.curbed.com/2017/6/15/15807744/penn-station-west-end-concourse-post-office

 

[patnyrnyg]

I realize you're wearing your heart on your sleeve on this one but put down the rose colored glasses for a second. The RFP (https://www.scribd.com/document/355101992/Belmont-Request-for-Proposals) in no way shape or form states the project "MUST" be sports oriented, let alone a professional grade arena, and I quote:

"Respondents are encouraged to include proposals for the development of entertainment, sports, recreation, hospitality, and retail uses."

"Passive or active recreational use is required on the southern portion of Site B. Recreational uses may include a park, sports fields and/or indoor recreation facility."

They're going to build whatever makes sense including convention center, public sports facilities, or even multiplex movie theaters & bowling alleys. Another arena makes absolutely no sense. We already have MSG, Barclay's, Prudential Center, Arthur Ashe Stadium, Renovated NMVC, Jones Beach Theater, Citi Field, Forest Hill Stadium, New Yankee Stadium, Metlife Stadium, IZod Center, Red Bull Arena, not to mention the hundred smaller theaters.

Do not include Arthur Ashe, Forest Hill, Red Bull, Jones Beach, or Izod (which is closed) in the equation. Giants stadium is for the BIG acts. Yankee Stadium and Citi Field host very little outside of their respective teams. They are not a major player for concerts. Yes, they have a few, not many. Jones Beach is exclusively a summer venue. Renovated Nassau Coliseum is small. There are enough acts and enough people that can do a night at MSG, Barclays, Prudential, and a new arena in Belmont and sell them all out.

 

[patnyrnyg]

55 years ago everybody in New York City thought the railroads were dying. Today Penn Station is a miserable place to get in and out of and it needs to be fixed and it also needs to be adjacent to the subway. The key is the Farley Post Office and it remains to be seen if they can get this done and leave MSG alone.

https://ny.curbed.com/2017/6/15/15807744/penn-station-west-end-concourse-post-office

This again. It has been beaten to death on here. Dolan offered years ago to move across to the Farley Building and renovate it into a new MSG and the powers that be dragged their butts just like those out in Nassau County did. The city council can try to strong-arm dolan by not renewing the permit, his lawyers will get an injunction preventing them from doing so and tie this up in court for years. If they want to get him out to fix penn station, their only option is to buy the building from him and give him enough time to get a new arena built in Manhattan.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Belmont would be an absolute disaster way worse than Brooklyn, there is nothing around that immediate area and I mean NOTHING, no bars no restaurants no hotels, it is literally a waste land, why on earth would you spend over 800 million on an arena in the most desolate place on Long Island? at least in Uniondale there are some bars/restaurants to go to before a game, the reality is that NYC cannot support 3 NHL franchises.

I have lived here my whole life and have been following hockey since 1979 and no one cares about this sport at all in this area, the Rangers survive based on history, location, generational support and tourism in Manhattan.

In the end the Isles will be in Quebec or Seattle..it's definitely going to happen

Why do they need hotels near the arena? isles fans make a point at staying at the Marriot? There are what, 4 bars near the coliseum? Champions inside the Marriot (if it is even still there), whatever Bogart's is now called, whatever McHebe's is called now. Are you going to count Borelli's or the Fridays on Merrick Ave? What restaurants? McDonalds? The Wendys down Hempstead Tpke? Coliseum Deli? Please, let's not act as if Nassau Coliseum is in Wrigleyville.

To say noone cares about the sport in this area is ridiculous. NYC metro has over 20 million people, they can support 3 teams.