GDT: UFC 214: Cormier vs. Jones 2

Birko19

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His GOAT status is erased completely.

He falls into the "what if" category now. His performance vs OSP was a meh win and its the only drug test he has passed in 4 years.

Hopefully he never fights again. Disgrace

DC wins if not for roids.

Jones fails not just at MMA, but life in general. The guy should be serving jailtime for some of the things he has done, but squeaks out with community service over and over. Well, there goes your mealticket Jones. Go overdose on a speedball now and keep the predictability train going.

I'm not sure I completely agree with erasing his status in the GOAT arguments. The way things turned out to be after USADA I'm almost willing to believe that most top fighters are/were on something. If we eliminate Jones from the GOAT argument, then Silva falls in that category too.
 

TerminatorBlue

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I'm not sure I completely agree with erasing his status in the GOAT arguments. The way things turned out to be after USADA I'm almost willing to believe that most top fighters are/were on something. If we eliminate Jones from the GOAT argument, then Silva falls in that category too.

As Anderson should, I don't assume every other fighter is cheating because a few guys got caught, I give all fighters the benefit of the doubt until they get caught.
 

LSCII

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As Anderson should, I don't assume every other fighter is cheating because a few guys got caught, I give all fighters the benefit of the doubt until they get caught.

This is exactly right. You can say you think most guys are on PEDs, but the likes of Jones, Cyborg, and Anderson Silva have tested positive, so we all know they are. That's a big distinction to make. Suspected versus confirmed.
 

kurt

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As Anderson should, I don't assume every other fighter is cheating because a few guys got caught, I give all fighters the benefit of the doubt until they get caught.

This is exactly right. You can say you think most guys are on PEDs, but the likes of Jones, Cyborg, and Anderson Silva have tested positive, so we all know they are. That's a big distinction to make. Suspected versus confirmed.

It's a big distinction to make, sure. But if our feelings are so strongly negative about "confirmed" users, shouldn't we be much more interested in seriously investigating whether this problem goes beyond the very small tip of the iceberg getting caught? Seems weird to me to be totally cool with suspected users, but downright shunning & exiling confirmed users. If it's that big of a crime against the sport to be using, much more should be done to catch cheaters.

Part of me feels like the whole PED battle is a total lost cause, and so long as people are using things safely (able to pass a pre-fight physical, or something), maybe it's best for sports to just cool their jets on this whole thing. How do you draw the line on PEDs, anyway? You can argue that all sorts of currently approved supplements are PEDs. If you wanted to really get silly about it, you could say some GMO foods could be viewed as PEDs.
 
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LSCII

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It's a big distinction to make, sure. But if our feelings are so strongly negative about "confirmed" users, shouldn't we be much more interested in seriously investigating whether this problem goes beyond the very small tip of the iceberg getting caught?

Seems weird to me to be totally cool with suspected users, but downright shunning & exiling confirmed users.

Sure, but all you can do is follow the results of the program the UFC has in place. It's not like we as fans get to dictate the testing policies and procedures that are employed here. So because of that, as a fan, all I can do is go by who passed their tests and who didn't.

I was also very critical pre USADA of guys using TRT and fighting too.
 

kurt

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Sure, but all you can do is follow the results of the program the UFC has in place. It's not like we as fans get to dictate the testing policies and procedures that are employed here. So because of that, as a fan, all I can do is go by who passed their tests and who didn't.

I was also very critical pre USADA of guys using TRT and fighting too.

Yeah, fair enough. I just feel like the whole pursuit of catching PED users is almost fruitless.
 

Birko19

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As Anderson should, I don't assume every other fighter is cheating because a few guys got caught, I give all fighters the benefit of the doubt until they get caught.

While I'm all for giving the benefit of doubt until caught, you can sort of make some good educational guesses on who was using and who was not based on pre and post USADA performances.
 

LSCII

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Yeah, fair enough. I just feel like the whole pursuit of catching PED users is almost fruitless.

No question about it. And that's not specific to MMA. It's all sports. Cheating and trying to gain an advantage is a constant.
 

m9

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I just find it weird what is considered cheating and what isn't. I've played sports my whole life, and used various things that aren't allowed by USADA. But the best advantage I ever got was laser eye surgery - better than 20/20 vision now. Should that be illegal in combat sports?
 

Jasper

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I just find it weird what is considered cheating and what isn't. I've played sports my whole life, and used various things that aren't allowed by USADA. But the best advantage I ever got was laser eye surgery - better than 20/20 vision now. Should that be illegal in combat sports?
Clearly no it's not the same, it's a laser (I've had laser surgery too, and it was probably the best money I've ever spent) But it's not that hard to believe that at least some fighters who spend their entire life conditioning their bodies refuse to put **** inside themselves. Maybe I'm naive but I can believe someone like GSP really doesn't dope.
 

m9

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Clearly no it's not the same, it's a laser (I've had laser surgery too, and it was probably the best money I've ever spent) But it's not that hard to believe that at least some fighters who spend their entire life conditioning their bodies refuse to put **** inside themselves. Maybe I'm naive but I can believe someone like GSP really doesn't dope.

But it's something people have done to their bodies to enhance performance.

Anyways, I don't care what they put in their bodies. I find it incredibly strange how some people are talking like they are hoping Jon Jones never fights again. If you don't want the best guy in combat sports in 20 years fighting anymore, you probably aren't really an MMA fan.
 

kurt

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While I'm all for giving the benefit of doubt until caught, you can sort of make some good educational guesses on who was using and who was not based on pre and post USADA performances.

You can also make good educational guesses based on appearance, performance, and behaviour. None of these characteristics are definitive, though. The thing about differing performances pre & post USADA is that tons of these guys are still cheating after USADA, and not getting caught.
 

kurt

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But it's something people have done to their bodies to enhance performance.

Anyways, I don't care what they put in their bodies. I find it incredibly strange how some people are talking like they are hoping Jon Jones never fights again. If you don't want the best guy in combat sports in 20 years fighting anymore, you probably aren't really an MMA fan.

I can understand the issue if people are putting their own health at risk by taking too much of something, or something completely unknown & risky.

I kinda get that concerns go beyond just safety in sports like baseball, because people want to preserve an "apples-to-apples" comparison of eras, and they worry about their record books, etc. But even in baseball it's impossible to do so. The trouble is that nutrition has advanced leaps and bounds, people are using better equipment (cleats, gloves, sunglasses, uniform fabrics, etc), training is smarter and more effective, etc. Then, on top of that, PED rules are super difficult to enforce, and a high percentage of athletes are cheating in ways where they know they won't get caught.

I think it's a shame Jon Jones is using stuff. I honestly think a majority of MMA athletes have used PEDs at some point or another in their training or recovery. And I think many PEDs can be used safely.

Red meat and egg yolks are dangerous and enhance performance. Laser eye surgery gives athletes an unnatural advantage. Allowing someone from a long line of people who have lived at high altitude to compete against someone who lives near sea level introduces a potentially unfair playing field.

The whole issue is so weird and difficult to pin down, I think. Where should the line be drawn? How can the detection of crossing the line be adequately monitored/enforced?
 

m9

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I can understand the issue if people are putting their own health at risk by taking too much of something, or something completely unknown & risky.

I kinda get that concerns go beyond just safety in sports like baseball, because people want to preserve an "apples-to-apples" comparison of eras, and they worry about their record books, etc. But even in baseball it's impossible to do so. The trouble is that nutrition has advanced leaps and bounds, people are using better equipment (cleats, gloves, sunglasses, uniform fabrics, etc), training is smarter and more effective, etc. Then, on top of that, PED rules are super difficult to enforce, and a high percentage of athletes are cheating in ways where they know they won't get caught.

I think it's a shame Jon Jones is using stuff. I honestly think a majority of MMA athletes have used PEDs at some point or another in their training or recovery. And I think many PEDs can be used safely.

Red meat and egg yolks are dangerous and enhance performance. Laser eye surgery gives athletes an unnatural advantage. Allowing someone from a long line of people who have lived at high altitude to compete against someone who lives near sea level introduces a potentially unfair playing field.

The whole issue is so weird and difficult to pin down, I think. Where should the line be drawn? How can the detection of crossing the line be adequately monitored/enforced?

The main thing people always point to is the safety of the fighters that aren't using. Which I get.. kind of. I mean, lots of people have jobs that are dangerous. As long as you know the risks, it's your choice and you need to make sure you are compensated appropriately.

I would just let guys do almost whatever they want when they are training, then test them around the fight (right before and right after, or whatever). As long as the guy isn't on something when he is in the cage, it's okay. That way the fight still goes on (good for the UFC & the fans) and you can punish the fighter when the results come out a few weeks later. In order to make this work however, you need to compensate the fighter that fought the guy who gets busted. Not just a small amount either - I think 50% should go to the other guy. Obviously suspensions & no contests would go along with it.
 

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