U18 Russian team

[Yakushev72]

Blaming hockey players for leaving is not a good look for us, and is a distraction from the real systemic issues that exist in Russian hockey.

The idea that some hockey players leaving is spoiling everything and that if we only forced them to stay home it would all be all right doesn't fly with me.

I want them to stay, but I don't think our domestic situation is all that good either. Maybe in the pursuit of profit Russian hockey has lost track of what matters most in the long run: development.

What did you think I was saying above? When I talk about the tiny number of quality players who are developed in Russia, does that sound to you as if I'm praising the hierarchy, or trashing them? Per capita, Russia is the weakest hockey country among the top 6 in the world, and the absence of a depth of good hockey players is the standard measurement of that weakness.

When you talk about forcing them to stay home, what are you talking about - detention, imprisonment, targeting their families, holding them hostage? To say the least, that might actually make Russia's international image even lower that it is now. But when youth hockey on a domestic level is in its infant stages, and the country that financed the development of these kids wants to take advantage of their investment, I certainly think that kids who play at home should be given a favored, advantaged position, and kids that go to NA should only be included on national teams when they are true superstars like Ovechkin or Malkin. If the kids that go to NA are any good, they will stay in NA, and if they aren't good enough, then we don't need them anyway!

 

[Fantomas]

These players do not need to be 'forced' to stay at home. Just compensate them well and they'll stay. It's not that freaking complicated.

Young players are leaving because Russian businessmen do not see them as useful to their financial bottom line. Change this and you fix the problem.

If I were in charge of fixing all of this I would give young players special status: a) I would make players under the age of 20 state employees, at least from the age of 14 b) I would pay them with money generated from tax dollars, c) no decisions about their development would be made by business interests, d) the state, or ideally some sort of a player union, would negotiate their participation and roles in leagues, including transfer arrangements.

When you treat kids with kid gloves they will want to stay. But abandon them to the mercy of clubs where they struggle and rot and they will leave.

As things stand, the Russian developmental system is too inflexible. If a player is in a bad situation there is nothing he can do but go abroad. Give young players more control over their situation, give them financial stability and you will see a big change.

 

[Yakushev72]

These players do not need to be 'forced' to stay at home. Just compensate them well and they'll stay. It's not that freaking complicated.

Young players are leaving because Russian businessmen do not see them as useful to their financial bottom line. Change this and you fix the problem.

If I were in charge of fixing all of this I would give young players special status: a) I would make players under the age of 20 state employees, at least from the age of 14 b) I would pay them with money generated from tax dollars, c) no decisions about their development would be made by business interests, d) the state, or ideally some sort of a player union, would negotiate their participation and roles in leagues, including transfer arrangements.

When you treat kids with kid gloves they will want to stay. But abandon them to the mercy of clubs where they struggle and rot and they will leave.

As things stand, the Russian developmental system is too inflexible. If a player is in a bad situation there is nothing he can do but go abroad. Give young players more control over their situation, give them financial stability and you will see a big change.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you propose. However, the train is probably too far down the track to reverse the trend, because the best players now appear to consider going to the CHL as a necessary step in advance of becoming a big NHL star. This leaves the MHL and VHL to deal only with those players who are still there because they have no other choice. And fans have no real interest in seeing them either, so its a vicious circle that never closes. .

 

[Fantomas]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you propose. However, the train is probably too far down the track to reverse the trend, because the best players now appear to consider going to the CHL as a necessary step in advance of becoming a big NHL star. This leaves the MHL and VHL to deal only with those players who are still there because they have no other choice. And fans have no real interest in seeing them either, so its a vicious circle that never closes.

You reverse the trend by creating incentives for players to get the most out of their experience at home. By going abroad they will be leaving a lot on the table.

Playing in the CHL is not glamorous by any stretch of the imagination. Many players leave because they do not like their existing situation - Abramov being a perfect example. They go because they feel more wanted there than at home.

It is important to leave the business side (including fan demand) out of this. If you leave everything to the whims of the market the development system will starve while the KHL makes its money on imports and other NHL cast-offs.

 

[Yakushev72]

You reverse the trend by creating incentives for players to get the most out of their experience at home. By going abroad they will be leaving a lot on the table.

Playing in the CHL is not glamorous by any stretch of the imagination. Many players leave because they do not like their existing situation - Abramov being a perfect example. They go because they feel more wanted there than at home.

It is important to leave the business side (including fan demand) out of this. If you leave everything to the whims of the market the development system will starve while the KHL makes its money on imports and other NHL cast-offs.

Actually, I prefer the old Soviet system of Government-funded national teams and club teams that seek excellence through innovative and exhaustive training, coupled with scientific and medical foundations for training athletes. That was the part of the national past that makes Russians believe there is a chance to be the homeland of great hockey. For better or worse, that ship has long since sailed, and the hockey bosses in charge, whether you like it or not, have chosen the business side to make a hockey system based on profits and incentives. That is where we are, like it or not!

Because of the absence of hockey infrastructure, it seems impossible to really drastically improve hockey in Russia. From the IIHF website, we learn that Russia has 560 indoor hockey rinks, while Canada has 3,380. That means that for every 1 hockey rink in Russia, there are 6 rinks in Canada. The number of hockey players creates an even more massive gap, an 8:1 or 9:1 ratio. For Russia, a nation of approximately 144 million people, this means that there is 1 indoor hockey rink for every 257, 142 citizens. Meanwhile, for Canada, there is 1 indoor rink for every 10,650 residents. That is a massive difference in infrastructure spending, which, if nothing else, proves that local or regional governments below the Federation level are spending very little, comparatively, on hockey infrastructure.

Because the potential talent pool in Russia is so large, much bigger than our rivals, you would assume that there are enough genetically-endowed kids in the country to produce huge depth in talent, but the infrastructure won't support that. For now, the only source of money is the oligarchs who sponsor hockey only as their personal hobby. They are only focused on the business side of profits and incentives.

 

[Fantomas]

That is where we are, like it or not!

So what? Things changed before, and they will again. People have to fight for change.

And while we're hopefully doing that, let's stop blaming young players for leaving. Let's blame the system for making them go. And I am not directing this at you, but generally at some posters who are hating on Russian prospects in the CHL.

 

[Yakushev72]

So what? Things changed before, and they will again. People have to fight for change.

And while we're hopefully doing that, let's stop blaming young players for leaving. Let's blame the system for making them go. And I am not directing this at you, but generally at some posters who are hating on Russian prospects in the CHL.

Maybe we are getting close to exhausting this topic, but I would represent my opinion as most closely aligned with Fetisov's. Slava played in the NHL - broke a lot of ground there, so I think he knows what he is talking about. He realizes that the system didn't "make them go," as you say. They are going because they think they have the ability to become NHL players. I am sure he wishes them the best in achieving their dreams.

At the same time, as an investor in KHL hockey, he realizes that when they go, the value of the KHL, VHL, and MHL decline with their departure, and the fruits of whatever investment that was made in developing a player in Russia goes into the pockets of NA billionaires instead of KHL billionaires. At a certain point, Russian investors will drop out of the picture. After they drop off, who steps forward with money to take their place? Regional governors in Tyumen, Kemerovo, St. Petersburg, Murmansk? Most likely, investment would plummet, which would have the affect of dropping Russia from 3rd or 4th in international rankings to 6th or 7th.

Have you noticed that, after establishing themselves in NHL careers, the players moving into their 30's start making themselves available to the national team for the WC tournament in May. This seems to coincide with the fact that many, if not most, have decided that while their career was totally devoted to NA employers, they most likely will retire in Russia after their career is over. They seem to start jockeying for position to re-establish a Russian "identity" suitable to adopting a "Russian hockey" identity. Datsyuk, Markov and Kovalchuk are just some of the names that who come to mind.

 

[Fantomas]

Maybe we are getting close to exhausting this topic, but I would represent my opinion as most closely aligned with Fetisov's. Slava played in the NHL - broke a lot of ground there, so I think he knows what he is talking about. He realizes that the system didn't "make them go," as you say. They are going because they think they have the ability to become NHL players.

This is his thesis from what I have heard. I do not agree with it. I think it is a combination of both their experience of the system and their desire to play in the NHL.

I don't have a problem with Fetisov's suggestion of incorporating certain barriers to international movement, in fact I've said a few times that I would at least entertain this. But this should not be done while also keeping a sclerotic system intact.

Also I have a difficult time sympathizing with Russian businessmen and their profits when we know that more than half of Russian wealth is located in offshore bank accounts. A lot of money they make is not reinvested back in the country, which is why I think they should have less say in player development.

Russian hockey should be run by coaches, trainers and players, especially at the junior level.

Have you noticed that, after establishing themselves in NHL careers, the players moving into their 30's start making themselves available to the national team for the WC tournament in May. This seems to coincide with the fact that many, if not most, have decided that while their career was totally devoted to NA employers, they most likely will retire in Russia after their career is over. They seem to start jockeying for position to re-establish a Russian "identity" suitable to adopting a "Russian hockey" identity. Datsyuk, Markov and Kovalchuk are just some of the names that who come to mind.

So what?

 

[wings5]

You guys still have great talent that stays in Russia. Slepets, Bitsadze, Denisenko. They just aren't developing properly in the Russian system either. Not sure I trust VHL as a great development league like the Allsvenskan where, young talent can hone their talent against men. Also the young teenage Russians almost never get any signifigant icetime in the KHL like they do in Sweden and Finland. Playing 5 min won't develop players properly at this age. Basically KHL might be too strong and the VHL not well established, can't comment exactly on the level, but there is a problem I feel there.

 

[Fantomas]

Also the young teenage Russians almost never get any signifigant icetime in the KHL like they do in Sweden and Finland. Playing 5 min won't develop players properly at this age.

Which is why young players should have union power by being able to negotiate transfers and get the kind of icetime they need.

 

[MaxV]

You guys are way too negative.

I feel like the situation is improving. Schools and locations that do not have great hockey history are starting to produce talent. I mean check out St Pete, even in Soviet days it was mediocre, but now half of Junior teams is from those schools.

I have already made the thread about the 1986-1990 born generation.

What did you expect from that generation? I'm surprised that they even had hockey schools in the 90s.

The environment was far more stable later, but that generation hasn't really arrived yet.

 

[Yakushev72]

This is his thesis from what I have heard. I do not agree with it. I think it is a combination of both their experience of the system and their desire to play in the NHL.

I don't have a problem with Fetisov's suggestion of incorporating certain barriers to international movement, in fact I've said a few times that I would at least entertain this. But this should not be done while also keeping a sclerotic system intact.

Also I have a difficult time sympathizing with Russian businessmen and their profits when we know that more than half of Russian wealth is located in offshore bank accounts. A lot of money they make is not reinvested back in the country, which is why I think they should have less say in player development.

Russian hockey should be run by coaches, trainers and players, especially at the junior level.



So what?

I don't cry myself to sleep at night over the fate of Russian businessmen. But I don't weep for NHL businessmen either. I like the idea of a Russian hockey identity, ideally along the lines of the glory years of the 60's, 70's and 80's, instead of "NHL hockey players from Russia," as we have with the Swedes and Finns. Wetbacks on the way to Washington and Winnipeg.

 

[Fantomas]

You guys are way too negative.

I feel like the situation is improving. Schools and locations that do not have great hockey history are starting to produce talent. I mean check out St Pete, even in Soviet days it was mediocre, but now half of Junior teams is from those schools.

I have already made the thread about the 1986-1990 born generation.

What did you expect from that generation? I'm surprised that they even had hockey schools in the 90s.

The environment was far more stable later, but that generation hasn't really arrived yet.

We're seeing results from guys already born in the Putin years and I am not all that impressed.

 

[MaxV]

We're seeing results from guys already born in the Putin years and I am not all that impressed.

Well I would think that the real money started to pour in around the time KHL started.

 

[Atas2000]

We're seeing results from guys already born in the Putin years and I am not all that impressed.

Being born to parents born in the Putin years is where I would start evaluating the impact of the Putin years.

The born in the Putin years are btw not even u20 for now and them are born to parents who are products of the Yeltsin years. That's a recipe for a lost generation hooked on individualism and consumerism.

Btw I have no idea what those next generations will look like, goid or bad.

 

[Yakushev72]

You guys are way too negative.

I feel like the situation is improving. Schools and locations that do not have great hockey history are starting to produce talent. I mean check out St Pete, even in Soviet days it was mediocre, but now half of Junior teams is from those schools.

I have already made the thread about the 1986-1990 born generation.

What did you expect from that generation? I'm surprised that they even had hockey schools in the 90s.

The environment was far more stable later, but that generation hasn't really arrived yet.

It may be true that things are getting better in St. Petersburg, but so far the results do not register a big shift. With a population of about 7 million, there are only 4 players that I can identify who played on the national team - Kasatonov, Gusarov, and Drozdetsky in the 1980's, and Sushinsky in 2006. That seems like extremely low productivity for such a large population center.

 

[malkinfan]

Well I would think that the real money started to pour in around the time KHL started.

Yeah I agree, wait until 2021-2024 by my estimate. Kids who were 4-6 when the KHL started will reflect the unofficial era of improved infrastructure. Somewhere in that time period we should expect something, those kids will be 17-20.

 

[RossiyaSport]

KHL is a good product and I prefer watching Russian sports to Western sports leagues for various reasons. And night in and night out the players making the big plays in the NHL are the Russians.

Russian players that stay in RU are going higher in the draft than those who go to the CHL and theres starting to be much more of an awakening with top management to stand up to this problem whereas in the past I think many got duped by this fallacy. I think some of these top people had the thought process of oh its ok, let them learn the Canadian style and be better at it. Now only an idiot would believe that works. A crack down on predatory agents and much more education to players and parents and I think this would be almost completely eradicated in a decade.

In my observations of RU hockey development at the pee wee level etc I am really impressed. Theres a lot of effort going into it. And contrary to what some Russophobes on the main board think these kids are super patriotic and very much into wanting to play for the RU national team.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I didn't know where to put this, but does anyone know anything about Danil Bashkirov? He's a 2019 draft eligible forward in the Yugra system, he has really good MHL stats for a player his age and he's listed at 6'2. Is there a reason he didn't play at the recent WHC-17?

 

[Caser]

Btw, meanwhile 5 Nations Tournament in Plymouth, MI, US has started.

GK Daniil Isayev Amir Miftakhov Vladislav Okoryak D Danila Galenyuk Anton Malyshev Daniil Misyul Nikita Okhotyuk Alexander Romanov Bogdan Zhilyakov Daniil Zhuravlyov

FW Grigoriy Denisenko Ruslan Iskhakov Alexander Khovanov Semyon Kizimov Ilya Kruglov Kirill Marchenko Vladislav Mikhailov Ivan Morozov Gleb Murtazin Vasiliy Podkolzin Pavel Rotenberg Yegor Sokolov Andrei Svechnikov Alexander Zhabreyev

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[DivochLubo]

Against Sweden I really like the line Iskhakov-Morozov-Marchenko. All those kids pretty much impressed me at games among the big names from first line.

 

[Caser]

A lot of question to Zybin after the 5 Nations, even though I understand that these kind of tournaments are for some experiments.

• Iskhakov and Morozov had some chemistry and effectiveness back at the WJAC, yet here they were put together only for the last game. Instead Iskhakov was put with another small kid Zhabreyev and the physical US team didn't have any issues with them, not to mention that they didn't exactly blend together.
• Denisenko-Khovanov-Svechnikov line didn't exactly impress me like it should've had, I think it would be more effective to put Denisenko on a separate line.
• Our defense was really bad, especially disappointing performance by Galenyuk, expected much better than that. On the other hand, Malyshev was instrumental there, no wonder that Vs. USA everything started crashing and burning after his ejection.
• Kizimov is a good energy player, but I didn't like what he is doing in the attacking zone. Mikhailov and Podkolzin really impressed.
• Didn't exactly understand the idea of inviting NA based players, as it is unlikely that they will be available for the WJC (unless we don't know something there, of course), I'd prefer giving Rtishchev another chance. Also the center position is vulnerable, we don't have depth here, so it would be good to try some more Russian-based centers.
• Rotenberg shouldn't have been there at the tournament, as he joined the team in the last moment (apparently due to visa issues) and wasn't prepared properly. With that being said, I should notice that I'm totally not a hater of him, as I think he did great at the Hlinka's and was totally legit at the WJAC.

 

[DivochLubo]

Anyone think that some players from U17 first line can get invite to U18 WC squad. They look very dominating on U17 tourney. I have not seen all the games,but at those I have seen, they looks awesome.

 

[Caser]

Anyone think that some players from U17 first line can get invite to U18 WC squad. They look very dominating on U17 tourney. I have not seen all the games,but at those I have seen, they looks awesome.

If we will have issues with centers I can think of Guskov getting another look, but aside from that, there are Podkolzin and also Mikhailov, who is almost U17, hard to expect more younger players.

 

[kp61c]

• Rotenberg should've been there at the tournament, as he joined the team in the last moment (apparently due to visa issues) and wasn't prepared properly. With that being said, I should notice that I'm totally not a hater of him, as I think he did great at the Hlinka's and was totally legit at the WJAC.

if he wasn't prepared he shouldn't have been on the ream. if i think he's a crap player who makes the team because of his family connections, does it make me hater or realist? i bet you loved ivanuzhenkov brothers too.