Training Camp 2017 [Mod warning post #676]

[mcpw]

re D pairings:

I don't think anything is set in stone. Reminder that Trouba spent most time with Enstrom last season, and Byfuglien with Morrissey.
Morrissey-Trouba is what they finished with, together with six games of Enstrom-Byfuglien (and a lot of Chiarot/Melchiori-Byfuglien when Enstrom was hurt). They might start with what they tried at the end of last season (JM-JT, TE-DB) and the Kulikov-Myers preseason pairing as well as both Buff and Toby being paired with rookies while JM-JT are scratched for the first game suggests that they will.
Different question is how long these pairings will last. I remember the infamous Stafford-Scheifele-Wheeler line from the end of the 14-15 season. They played the first one or two 15-16 preseason games together. Then they were split up in preseason still, and didn't play together for a long time.

 

[surixon]

re D pairings:

I don't think anything is set in stone. Reminder that Trouba spent most time with Enstrom last season, and Byfuglien with Morrissey.
Morrissey-Trouba is what they finished with, together with six games of Enstrom-Byfuglien (and a lot of Chiarot/Melchiori-Byfuglien when Enstrom was hurt). They might start with what they tried at the end of last season (JM-JT, TE-DB) and the Kulikov-Myers preseason pairing as well as both Buff and Toby being paired with rookies while JM-JT are scratched for the first game suggests that they will.
Different question is how long these pairings will last. I remember the infamous Stafford-Scheifele-Wheeler line from the end of the 14-15 season. They played the first one or two 15-16 preseason games together. Then they were split up in preseason still, and didn't play together for a long time.

Maurice in an Interview stated that he expected that there would be some fluidity to the pairings.

He went on to state Buff wanted to play with JoMo but the org likes how Trouba and Morrissey were playing down the stretch. I think the top pair is set as the org likely sees it as both the current and future top pair. I don't know that they have settled on how the 2nd and third pairing will look tonstart the year.

 

[Aavco Cup]

You have framed your question in a way that makes it difficult to respond.I don`t really see this as a question of which player "plays ahead of another". but rather, how to best construct a nicely balanced top nine, where of course each line has the desired mix of play drivers and complementary linemates. I could certainly see Perreault utilized as a 3rd line driver in some lineups but neither Laine nor Ehlers really drive the play (perhaps Ehlers does by utilizing his extraordinary speed). Wheeler also is a play driver that might be utilized very nicely on certain 2nd line combinations- even though there is no RW on the team that is as elite and productive as himself.

It's possible that this is how the season ends up or happens fairly soon into the season but why should it be that way now at the beginning of camp? Do you not believe a player should have to earn those minutes?

 

[surixon]

It's possible that this is how the season ends up or happens fairly soon into the season but why should it be that way now at the beginning of camp? Do you not believe a player should have to earn those minutes?

He should have to given he only had 5 points last year. I have no issue with him starting on the third, I just think it might be a good idea to play him with another offensive guy there so that the pressure to create offense doesn't fall squarely on him. Neither Armia or Lowry are adapt at creating offense at this point.

 

[Aavco Cup]

He should have to given he only had 5 points last year. I have no issue with him starting on the third, I just think it might be a good idea to play him with another offensive guy there so that the pressure to create offense doesn't fall squarely on him. Neither Armia or Lowry are adapt at creating offense at this point.

I know most here expect Connor to stick with the Jets but if his play is not where it needs to be I can imagine scenarios where he is back with the Moose. He's still basically making the jump from the AHL at this point. He's unproven at the NHL level. At his age development should still be the #1 priority.

BTW I'm among the people who expect him to stick with the Jets all year.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Playing Connor with Lowry and Armia should give them plenty of ice time against the other teams third pair. It should give him room to show his mettle. If it isn't successful I'm sure Maurice will try something else.

 

[ps241]

Armia did well on the PK but scored at a 1.1 p/60 on 5 on 5. Those rates are 4th line calibre and not good enough for a player in that slot on a contending team. The same applies to Lowry who scored at a similar rate. Hes got to be up around 1.3 to 1.4 p/60 rate imo.

Mathias actually produced more than him at a 1.2 p/60. As did Copp 1.3 p/60 and Dano 1.5 p/60.

Having said that I believe he has another level in him bit i think he needs to shown it this season.

It will be interesting to see if a weapon like Connor can impact Joel's scoring. Armia does have some talent and although I am not expecting miracles but if Kyle is on that line it is a massive upgrade and he is going to get points.

 

[ps241]

I know most here expect Connor to stick with the Jets but if his play is not where it needs to be I can imagine scenarios where he is back with the Moose. He's still basically making the jump from the AHL at this point. He's unproven at the NHL level. At his age development should still be the #1 priority.

BTW I'm among the people who expect him to stick with the Jets all year.

I would bet the farm Connor will both stick and be in the running for one of those useless trophy's that hockey writers vote on. I am really looking forward to watching him this season.

 

[ecolad]

I disagree with your assessment for a few reasons. First, if you look purely at Corsi when trying to determine the amount of possesion that Lowry, Copp and Armia had last year (likely Connor linemates), I believe that'll be misleading. If you watched those players, they had the puck for a ton of time each shift. However, they were only able to cycle and didn't have any finishers capable of actually getting quality chances despite their possession. In other words, their possession didn't fully translate into shots and opporunties. Playing Connor with some talented players that lean slightly toward the "grinder" side of the coin may be a perfectly acceptable introduction to the NHL and may allow them to turn some of their hard fought work along the boards into real scoring opportunities.

Secondly, what is to be gained from additional time in the AHL? Connor excelled in his time there - given that it's a developmental league, whereby players only play there in order to demonstrate they have the skills to compete at that level prior to trying the NHL on for size, it's clear he's already ticked that box. At this stage I do not believe he is the preferred choice to Laine, Wheeler, Ehlers or Perreault, therefore, the 3rd line is the realistic place for him at this stage.

So, as much as you clearly want to use this to further your vendetta against the coach, i'm not sure it really fits into that narrative. Playing Kyle Connor on the 3rd line is simply the most sensible place for him to be currently.

Hopefully he makes the most of the opportunity, and instead of playing down to the level of others on his line, he instead brings their quality of play up (as a great player can do).

You have done a decent job of summarizing the perspective of those that advocate placing Connor on the 3rd line with Lowry and Armia. We will see how that works out in due course.

Don`t know where you got the notion that I favour returning Connor to the AHL but it`s quite wrong. Better read more carefully - the suggestion was to put him with better teamates that would generate offense beyond simply "finishing the cycle work down low".

Finally, you`re self ingratiating comment about a "vendetta against the coach" is just unjustified and uncalled for. Much too much of this nonsense in this entire thread.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

GameCenter live is the only legal way to watch it online. No discussion of any other methods is allowed.

Is TSN Go a possibility? That would be legal.

 

[TorJet]

You have done a decent job of summarizing the perspective of those that advocate placing Connor on the 3rd line with Lowry and Armia. We will see how that works out in due course.

Don`t know where you got the notion that I favour returning Connor to the AHL but it`s quite wrong. Better read more carefully - the suggestion was to put him with better teamates that would generate offense beyond simply "finishing the cycle work down low".

Finally, you`re self ingratiating comment about a "vendetta against the coach" is just unjustified and uncalled for. Much too much of this nonsense in this entire thread.

Per my second point, unless you're planning on putting him on the 4th line, and unless you see him beating out Laine, Ehlers, Wheeler or Perreault in order to get in the top 6, these are the teammates he pretty much has to play with. So, I don't get what you're suggesting be done...

And I believe you meant "self aggrandizing", not "self ingratiating".

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Yea at the risk of a piling on penalty everything has been different about this off season and its pretty clear that we are in a win now mode. Even looking at the forwards they are rolling out tonight for the first preseason game it seems like they are setting a tone. The debate is never going to end about what path we took to get here and how long it has taken but to me at least its crystal clear that this season has beeen different from the start.

I predicted Chevy would have an active off season, that we would add a goalie, that we will get between 103 to 105 points and finish 2nd in our division. For the first time in 7 years we begin the season with a proven starting NHL goalie and combine that with a talented back up. I predict they will achieve league average save % and that will be more than enough for a group as talented as the 2017-18 Jets.

Mostly I am really looking forward to the regular season stress that comes with being in the hunt for a playoff spot. That feeling of being alive like we had in 2014-15.

Glad they are dropping the puck tonight.......lets get this rolling.

I like this post.
Even with some debatable Mauriceisms this team is good.
There are some things, like goaltending where we need to wait for the results to be sure. There are some question marks. But there are no holes in this lineup. None. If Maurice creates one at 4C then that will be the only one. If Maurice optimizes his players successfully there is no limit to how high this team can go. If he doesn't? We might get there anyway.

Can't wait for Oct. 4.
GJG!

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'm not so certain that Armia is that secure in his spot on the third. He has yet to produce much in the NHL and he's a couple of years older than Petan. Given that Moe seems to want a dynamic top 9, Armia is going to have to produce early to keep the spot. If Petan can cone in and produce while playing responsible in camp he might just win it.

I keep forgetting to think of Petan on RW. I have had the idea stuck in my head for quite a while that Armia has a lot of untapped offensive potential, with the right linemates. So I keep trying to leave him at 3RW and improve the rest of that line.

Petan at 3RW might add some of that creative playmaking that Lowry can't provide. Connor - Lowry - Petan could be a great combination. I have been encouraged by the comments about Petan coming into camp stronger, quicker and ready to work hard.

If he can push Armia down to the 4th line that just strengthens the 4th line.

 

[ecolad]

Per my second point, unless you're planning on putting him on the 4th line, and unless you see him beating out Laine, Ehlers, Wheeler or Perreault in order to get in the top 6, these are the teammates he pretty much has to play with. So, I don't get what you're suggesting be done...

And I believe you meant "self aggrandizing", not "self ingratiating".

I`m suggesting that Connor would fit best on a 2nd line with Little and Wheeler and that Perreault would fit best (as a forecheck demon, a very good play driver, and a decent finisher) on the 3rd line with Lowry and Armia. This is somewhat irrelevant since Maurice seems disposed to move Wheeler to the 1st line with Schiefele and Laine, at least initially.

And no, I meant self ingratiating. You are trying too hard to fit in with and enjoy the support of others who take this same position.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I understand the logic behind putting Connor on this potential 3rd line to some degree but it is, in my opinion, somewhat flawed and likely to disappoint. Maurice is once again putting far too much weight on bringing a rookie along slowly by playing against against lower quality 3rd line opponents , and not thinking of the benefits of placing such rookie with quality linemates that complement his style /skills.

Think back to Connor`s superior play in the NCAA. He played alongside Motte(I think it was) and excelled as a finisher/shooter on the line.Clearly Connor never has been one to actually drive the play but is an excellent complimentary piece. My concern is that neither Lowry nor Armia function as play-drivers and this line will be found lacking. Unfortunately, Connor himself will likely underperform.

Pretty sure it was Garret who demonstrated that QoT is more important than QoC. Therefore you are more successfully 'sheltering' a rookie by giving him good linemates than you are by giving him weaker competition.

That is the reasoning behind the suggestion to put Connor with Little and Wheeler on the 3rd line. It is not that Connor already deserves to play ahead of MP. He does not - yet.

 

[nobody important]

Pretty sure it was Garret who demonstrated that GoT is more important than QoC. Therefore you are more successfully 'sheltering' a rookie by giving him good linemates than you are by giving him weaker competition.

That is the reasoning behind the suggestion to put Connor with Little and MP on the 3rd line. It is not that Connor already deserves to play ahead of MP. He does not - yet.

Then Garret is wrong. Game of Thrones is the least important thing in the known universe.

 

[ffh]

Pretty sure it was Garret who demonstrated that GoT is more important than QoC. Therefore you are more successfully 'sheltering' a rookie by giving him good linemates than you are by giving him weaker competition.

That is the reasoning behind the suggestion to put Connor with Little and MP on the 3rd line. It is not that Connor already deserves to play ahead of MP. He does not - yet.

I know I had this debate a while back with a few here. I thought connor on the 3rd line was a better way to go like ehlers and scheifele when they first started out. it helps connor that he doesn't have the pressure of feeling he has to produce on the 2nd line and he can just relax and not worry about trying to get points. like scheifele said when he started there he was only worried about playing good defense and that the offence would come. also the team is in win now mode . winning is more important to them then anybody's development. you know what you are getting with perreault point wise. and we know he can play with ehlers wheeler and laine little and scheifele because he has for the last 2 years.

 

[JetsFan815]

So pumped for this. Hopefully we run up the score as payback for that pre-season game against the Wild a couple of years ago

 

[KingBogo]

Maurice in an Interview stated that he expected that there would be some fluidity to the pairings.

He went on to state Buff wanted to play with JoMo but the org likes how Trouba and Morrissey were playing down the stretch. I think the top pair is set as the org likely sees it as both the current and future top pair. I don't know that they have settled on how the 2nd and third pairing will look tonstart the year.

Agreed. From the one Maurice interview Morrissey and Trouba seem to be the most carved in stone pairing.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Agreed. From the one Maurice interview Morrissey and Trouba seem to be the most carved in stone pairing.

I actually now expect to see

Enstrom Buff
Morrissey Trouba
Kulikov Myers

At least to begin with.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

We can talk about line combos and D pairs all we want but we all know darn well that if any of them struggle for a period.... Out comes the line blender.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Can we talk about legit power play and PK lines?

The atheletic has a very interesting Delow article on the Jets PP woes.

https://theathletic.com/103037/2017...gs-on-jets-pp1-and-its-not-their-young-stars/


The bizarre thing about Winnipeg's power-play problems is that they had a unit (4F, 1D, which tends to do better) that produced quite well in 2014-15 and 2015-16. It had a mix of two right-handed forwards, two left-handed forwards and a right-handed defenceman, which I tend to think is the best mix of players on a power play for a variety of reasons.

This group played a reasonable amount at 5-on-4 over two seasons, 163.68 minutes. It attempted a lot of shots, with 118 shot attempts per 60 minutes. It put a lot of shots on net (although you'd have hoped for a few more, given the volume of shots attempted) with 51.7 SF/60. Oh, and it scored a lot of goals, with 9.9 GF/60 in the 2014-16 window.

To put that last number into context, only five units managed more than 10.0 GF/60 from a 4F,1D at 5-on-4 last year. This unit produced at an elite level. Four of the five were on the Jets in 2016-17 (and four of the five are back this year). In 2016-17, the Jets got those four players on the ice in a 4F,1D with two right-handed forwards, two left-handed forwards and a right-handed defenceman for a grand total of 21.88 minutes. They scored 11.0 GF/60 in this limited time, generating 68.6 SF/60 on 115.2 CF/60. It's 20 minutes but it's 20 minutes in the context of this being a group that's worked in the past.

The four guys are, of course, Dustin Byfuglien with Bryan Little, Mathieu Perreault and Blake Wheeler. Andrew Ladd rounded the group out prior to 2016-17. Adam Lowry was the fifth Beatle most of the time last season, with Marko Dano, Nic Petan and Nikolaj Ehlers making brief cameos. A variant of the unit featuring three right-handed forwards saw Drew Stafford pile up some time with the group as well.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I know I had this debate a while back with a few here. I thought connor on the 3rd line was a better way to go like ehlers and scheifele when they first started out. it helps connor that he doesn't have the pressure of feeling he has to produce on the 2nd line and he can just relax and not worry about trying to get points. like scheifele said when he started there he was only worried about playing good defense and that the offence would come. also the team is in win now mode . winning is more important to them then anybody's development. you know what you are getting with perreault point wise. and we know he can play with ehlers wheeler and laine little and scheifele because he has for the last 2 years.

There are certainly good arguments in favour of starting him on the 3rd. If PM sticks to the top 6 that he seems to be planning, then I would rule out Connor on the 2nd. I wouldn't give Little both Laine and Connor. OTOH, if he puts Wheeler back with Little I think those 2 veterans would shelter him very well and I would try him on the 2nd. There are pros and cons to both approaches.

 

[KingBogo]

I actually now expect to see

Enstrom Buff
Morrissey Trouba
Kulikov Myers

At least to begin with.

That would be my guess as well. It will be interesting to see the distribution of ice time.

 

[TorJet]

I`m suggesting that Connor would fit best on a 2nd line with Little and Wheeler and that Perreault would fit best (as a forecheck demon, a very good play driver, and a decent finisher) on the 3rd line with Lowry and Armia. This is somewhat irrelevant since Maurice seems disposed to move Wheeler to the 1st line with Schiefele and Laine, at least initially.

And no, I meant self ingratiating. You are trying too hard to fit in with and enjoy the support of others who take this same position.

I'll put it another way. The term "self ingratiating" is not used nor does it make sense in the context in which you attempted to use it. A "self aggrandizing" statement is one made to make oneself appear superior to others. To "ingratiate" would be to actively attempt to win favour with others. I would say that the majority of this board has some anti-Maurice sentiments - therefore I would not be "ingratiating" myself (again, the term "self ingratiating" isn't used - as one would be definition be speaking about oneself) to others here as I'm voicing a minority opinion.

You could, on the other hand, suggest via the verbiage i chose to use that I was making a "self-aggrandizing" statement - I'd disagree but at least it would be a logical statement.

Regardless, I disagree with your opinion about Connor's useage. We ought to play the best players we have this year and worry slightly less about sheltering individual players (as a general rule - injury call-ups might necessitate some specific sheltering) as we transition into a "win now" mentality. Until such time as Connor supplants the wingers in the top 6, I'm of the opinion that he ought to play on the 3rd line.

You disagree, fair enough - but, that is my opinion, for the reasons I've expressed.