Training Camp 2017 [Mod warning post #676]

[surixon]

Since improving the PK is high on he agenda this year and Armia is our takeaway and shorthanded goal leader he would have to mess up big time to find himself out of the lineup. I don't see that happening.

I didn't mean out of the lineup I meant out of the 3rd line RW slot. He can still kill penalties from the 4th line. Having said that I do think he looks poised to start producing a bit more so I think he holds the spot.

The point i was trying to make if Maurice is to be believed with regards to wanting a dynamic top 9 is that itbwont be sufficient for players on the third line to just be able to defend. They will have to produce some decent offense as well to stay that high in the line up. To date neither Armia or Lowry have shown that they can produce that well ot ES. If both stay the same it puts a lot of pressure on Connor to carry that line offensively.

 

[Jimby]

Petan had an unremarkable 4 minutes of PK time last year. I doubt he replaces Armia who is a boss at PK.

he has a horrible shot and his PPG is, well, pathetic.

you would have to look at Petan - also a skill guy - taking that role as well

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Unless Petan absolutely dominates preseason hes Moose bound. No doubt about it and if they do want him to be a Perreault type of winger.. Playing 20 minutes a night in the A is best for him. I think tho that its time some people accept that while petan is a good player altho hes yet to really show it, we have better plays than him in the system and with the big club. Hes also waiver ineligible so... That makes the decision to send him down easier.

Dano also.. Hes a good player but he hasnt shown he is recently. Hes not Waiver ineligible so id imagine he does make the opening day roster.

I actually think these are the 4 forward lines we might see to start the season. Chiarot Copp Dano upstairs. Rest to Moose.

Lemiuex Sgarbossa Dano. Or replace Sgarbossa with Copp.

 

[Nolan Giesbrecht]

I live in Vancouver. TSNGo (TSN live stream) is blacked out here for Jet games because it's outside the Jets regional network.

Ah yes, wasn't thinking of that. I just wanted to make note of the ability to stream games on TSN as it has helped me out out more than a few times.

 

[Shazzam]

Unless the top 9, instead of top 6, is set in stone. Which I'm sure is the case here. They'll probably only change the guys from the fourth line and on the D, where they'll probably will give some time to some other prospects as well.
Of course they might mix the places inside the top 9, but I don't see anyone dropping off, except if someone starts underperforming big time. Which I don't see happening.

Edit: After listening to Maurice's latest interview I stand corrected: "just" the top 7-8 eight is set. Depending how you interpret Maurice saying spots 8-12 are open for battle (do you count the 8th set or open). So if it is 7 guys as I see it. Who is the 7th? Armia or Lowry? I was pretty sure both of them are set, but not anymore. Unless Perreault is not?

I think Armia is the 7th that's set in stone. Lowery is close, but has a bit to prove IMO but maybe not in Paul's. So that leaves 4 or 5 spots more or less open.

My comments were not as much dissecting what the line combinations will be, but using TC to try out various combos for the bottom 6. So if we dressed say 9 of the guys fighting for those spots, we can ice 3 of our top 6 so they get in some playing time as well and rotate those 6 throughout preseason.
Less chance of them getting injured and we get a real good look at our prospects.

 

[Neuf]

Armia is perfect 4th line winger. Takeaway and penalty kill machine, with a enough offense to drive possession. Not enough offense to be higher in the lineup, so like a 3B.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Maurice revealed his preseason strategy in his pregamer today.

He expects to get better lineups to play against in St Paul and Edmonton. He wants to dress all the guys competing for spots in those two games so they can look at them playing against "NHL" level competition.

 

[TannedBum]

To date neither Armia or Lowry have shown that they can produce that well ot ES. If both stay the same it puts a lot of pressure on Connor to carry that line offensively.

I'm not sure if anyone could do miracles with offensively limited players like Lowry and Matthias, and without PP-time. I think Armia produced quite OK if you put things in context. Armia is better every year and this year is not gonna be exception. Last year Armia carried his line offensively. Now he can give half of that job to Connor, and mark my words, it's gonna be brilliant.

 

[HannuJ]

I'm not sure if anyone could do miracles with offensively limited players like Lowry and Matthias, and without PP-time. I think Armia produced quite OK if you put things in context. Armia is better every year and this year is not gonna be exception. Last year Armia carried his line offensively. Now he can give half of that job to Connor, and mark my words, it's gonna be brilliant.

context: you LOVE Armia. always have been his #1 cheerleader.

look, the dude has talent. he hasn't put the points up to back that talent. I do think he will have a relatively thin leash.

 

[Eyeseeing]

How'd you do that?

I'm likely on their ignore

 

[surixon]

I'm not sure if anyone could do miracles with offensively limited players like Lowry and Matthias, and without PP-time. I think Armia produced quite OK if you put things in context. Armia is better every year and this year is not gonna be exception. Last year Armia carried his line offensively. Now he can give half of that job to Connor, and mark my words, it's gonna be brilliant.

Armia did well on the PK but scored at a 1.1 p/60 on 5 on 5. Those rates are 4th line calibre and not good enough for a player in that slot on a contending team. The same applies to Lowry who scored at a similar rate. Hes got to be up around 1.3 to 1.4 p/60 rate imo.

Mathias actually produced more than him at a 1.2 p/60. As did Copp 1.3 p/60 and Dano 1.5 p/60.

Having said that I believe he has another level in him bit i think he needs to shown it this season.

 

[TannedBum]

look, the dude has talent. he hasn't put the points up to back that talent. I do think he will have a relatively thin leash.

I love the fact that each of your arguments about Armia has been dead wrong since the day 1.

 

[CaptainChef]

There are a lot of different points of view here and variations on them. It isn't a simple dialogue between 2 people. Is this not a place to come and share and explore opinions? Or is it just supposed to be a listing of fact? 1 person expresses an idea. 3 leap in to attack it, 2 more provide variations on it. Argument ensues. Occassionally the differences are resolved. More often they are not and the same arguments surface when some related subject is brought up. It will always be that way when there are more than 2-3 people involved.

I don't understand your problem here. If the conversation goes off in a direction you don't like then just skim over a few pages until it gets back to something you like better. If I say something and you leap in to disagree am I then supposed to humbly accept your opinion and drop the topic? I don't think so. Unless you happen to make a point I can't find fault with. Others will join in and it might go on quite a while.

This season looks pretty promising for the Jets. Does that mean we all hang out here saying how wonderful everything is? If we find any fault we should keep it to ourselves so we don't spoil the euphoric mood?

I'm glad you responded & did a very good job of it indeed. Seems like too many expect to hear nothing but positive stuff on these threads.

Yes, there is tons to be positive about & you will find that even those of us who say negative things about the players, coaches, or management, will pipe up & make lots of complimentary posts (even complimenting Chevy & Maurice when they surprise us).

I see no need for everyone to be on the same page, but sharing of ideas, positive & negative, keep conversation interesting & meaningful. Too often I see local media, in their efforts to report only positively on the Jets, becoming non-believable & almost meaningless.

 

[ecolad]

I didn't mean out of the lineup I meant out of the 3rd line RW slot. He can still kill penalties from the 4th line. Having said that I do think he looks poised to start producing a bit more so I think he holds the spot.

The point i was trying to make if Maurice is to be believed with regards to wanting a dynamic top 9 is that itbwont be sufficient for players on the third line to just be able to defend. They will have to produce some decent offense as well to stay that high in the line up. To date neither Armia or Lowry have shown that they can produce that well ot ES. If both stay the same it puts a lot of pressure on Connor to carry that line offensively.

I understand the logic behind putting Connor on this potential 3rd line to some degree but it is, in my opinion, somewhat flawed and likely to disappoint. Maurice is once again putting far too much weight on bringing a rookie along slowly by playing against against lower quality 3rd line opponents , and not thinking of the benefits of placing such rookie with quality linemates that complement his style /skills.

Think back to Connor`s superior play in the NCAA. He played alongside Motte(I think it was) and excelled as a finisher/shooter on the line.Clearly Connor never has been one to actually drive the play but is an excellent complimentary piece. My concern is that neither Lowry nor Armia function as play-drivers and this line will be found lacking. Unfortunately, Connor himself will likely underperform.

 

[Aavco Cup]

I understand the logic behind putting Connor on this potential 3rd line to some degree but it is, in my opinion, somewhat flawed and likely to disappoint. Maurice is once again putting far too much weight on bringing a rookie along slowly by playing against against lower quality 3rd line opponents , and not thinking of the benefits of placing such rookie with quality linemates that complement his style /skills.

Think back to Connor`s superior play in the NCAA. He played alongside Motte(I think it was) and excelled as a finisher/shooter on the line.Clearly Connor never has been one to actually drive the play but is an excellent complimentary piece. My concern is that neither Lowry nor Armia function as play-drivers and this line will be found lacking. Unfortunately, Connor himself will likely underperform.

Which one if the following players would he play ahead of?

Laine Wheeler Ehlers Perreault.

Inevitably an injury or a game misconduct will likely give him a chance to move up the lineup and show he belongs in that group.

 

[surixon]

I understand the logic behind putting Connor on this potential 3rd line to some degree but it is, in my opinion, somewhat flawed and likely to disappoint. Maurice is once again putting far too much weight on bringing a rookie along slowly by playing against against lower quality 3rd line opponents , and not thinking of the benefits of placing such rookie with quality linemates that complement his style /skills.

Think back to Connor`s superior play in the NCAA. He played alongside Motte(I think it was) and excelled as a finisher/shooter on the line.Clearly Connor never has been one to actually drive the play but is an excellent complimentary piece. My concern is that neither Lowry nor Armia function as play-drivers and this line will be found lacking. Unfortunately, Connor himself will likely underperform.

I agree with this. For the record I have no issue playing him with one real strong defensive player like Lowry to shield him a bit, but I think they need to give him another offensive player to work with to help him out. Perhaps they still feel that Armia can breakout in that regard. If so then the line probably performs well. But if he stays the same player and produces at 4th line rates the line likely underperforms offensively.

Edit: I however completely disagree with the notion that Connor doesn't drive the play. He drove it on the Moose when he was down there. Especially when he was lighting things up with Cormier and Lipon as line mates. He also drive the play on the USHL. I wouldn't cherry pick one year in college to support the notion that he's a complimentary player. He's a smart hockey player that can mold his game for what is needed.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

Not quite true - if have TSN3 through Bell/Shaw/et al., you can watch online through TSN.ca.

This is nice for me as we had a break in a few weeks ago and the tv happened to walk away; this lets me catch the game on the computer tonight.

The takeaway: only legal streams are allowed. There are a number of them, including GameCenter Live. Illegal streams can not be discussed, and no discussion of regional bypasses.

It's the same conversation we've had numerous times in GDT's for at least 2 years. It has to do with DMCA take-down requests, and legal liability. If there is ONE take-down request, you will be permanently banned for posting links to streams. This is Crave Online's policy to limit their liability.

And with that: I will point everyone to this treatise on the subject going forward.

 

[TorJet]

I understand the logic behind putting Connor on this potential 3rd line to some degree but it is, in my opinion, somewhat flawed and likely to disappoint. Maurice is once again putting far too much weight on bringing a rookie along slowly by playing against against lower quality 3rd line opponents , and not thinking of the benefits of placing such rookie with quality linemates that complement his style /skills.

Think back to Connor`s superior play in the NCAA. He played alongside Motte(I think it was) and excelled as a finisher/shooter on the line.Clearly Connor never has been one to actually drive the play but is an excellent complimentary piece. My concern is that neither Lowry nor Armia function as play-drivers and this line will be found lacking. Unfortunately, Connor himself will likely underperform.

I disagree with your assessment for a few reasons. First, if you look purely at Corsi when trying to determine the amount of possesion that Lowry, Copp and Armia had last year (likely Connor linemates), I believe that'll be misleading. If you watched those players, they had the puck for a ton of time each shift. However, they were only able to cycle and didn't have any finishers capable of actually getting quality chances despite their possession. In other words, their possession didn't fully translate into shots and opporunties. Playing Connor with some talented players that lean slightly toward the "grinder" side of the coin may be a perfectly acceptable introduction to the NHL and may allow them to turn some of their hard fought work along the boards into real scoring opportunities.

Secondly, what is to be gained from additional time in the AHL? Connor excelled in his time there - given that it's a developmental league, whereby players only play there in order to demonstrate they have the skills to compete at that level prior to trying the NHL on for size, it's clear he's already ticked that box. At this stage I do not believe he is the preferred choice to Laine, Wheeler, Ehlers or Perreault, therefore, the 3rd line is the realistic place for him at this stage.

So, as much as you clearly want to use this to further your vendetta against the coach, i'm not sure it really fits into that narrative. Playing Kyle Connor on the 3rd line is simply the most sensible place for him to be currently.

Hopefully he makes the most of the opportunity, and instead of playing down to the level of others on his line, he instead brings their quality of play up (as a great player can do).

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Little and Laine at the end of the year did not work as well as we would hope. But that combo did work very well together mid season. The way Perreault ended the season (full beast mode) it would seem that a healthy MP with Little and Ehlers could be very effective.

I also think that the effect of having 3 competent, dare I say strong D pairs that can move the puck will make everything look so much better.

Yeah, I'm not against these lines. Just a little skeptical. Of the top 6, it has all the big guys on one line, all the little ones on the other. That might work, or not. It ignores a lot of chemistry we saw last year but if these combinations have chemistry too, its all good.

If the sum of the 2 lines >= the sum of the 2 lines arranged the way I would prefer then I am happy with the change. We'll see how it works out.

I don't give a rat's patoot about moving Laine and Ehlers back to their off-sides. If they are happier that way then I guess I am too, as long as they get the results.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think Maurice is thinking defense more than offense for his top 6 at this point. His top two lines have a couple of strong vets (Scheifele / Wheeler and Little / Perreault), with a young offensive player. He could probably get more offense by linking Ehlers and Laine, and perhaps even playing Connor in the top six. However, to begin I think he's looking for lines that will be strong in all zones.

Makes sense. But then why put Laine and Ehlers back on their 'wrong' sides?

 

[lomiller1]

Since improving the PK is high on he agenda this year and Armia is our takeaway and shorthanded goal leader he would have to mess up big time to find himself out of the lineup. I don't see that happening.

We need to reduce the number of goals our PK gives up not increase the number of goals it scores.

 

[lomiller1]

I think Armia is the 7th that's set in stone. Lowery is close, but has a bit to prove IMO but maybe not in Paul's. So that leaves 4 or 5 spots more or less open.

Lowry is the 7th that is set in stone, the organization loves him. Armia is probably the “maybe 8â€, but I actually expect him to drop. He has loads of skill and can make the highlight reel plays but doesn’t seem to have the offensive instincts to “just be in the right place at the right time†to get the “easy†points.

 

[csk]

Yeah, I'm not against these lines. Just a little skeptical. Of the top 6, it has all the big guys on one line, all the little ones on the other. That might work, or not. It ignores a lot of chemistry we saw last year but if these combinations have chemistry too, its all good.

If the sum of the 2 lines >= the sum of the 2 lines arranged the way I would prefer then I am happy with the change. We'll see how it works out.

I don't give a rat's patoot about moving Laine and Ehlers back to their off-sides. If they are happier that way then I guess I am too, as long as they get the results.

Little and Perreault are both ~190 lbs though, so it's not like this line will get pushed around.

 

[ecolad]

Which one if the following players would he play ahead of?

Laine Wheeler Ehlers Perreault.

Inevitably an injury or a game misconduct will likely give him a chance to move up the lineup and show he belongs in that group.

You have framed your question in a way that makes it difficult to respond.I don`t really see this as a question of which player "plays ahead of another". but rather, how to best construct a nicely balanced top nine, where of course each line has the desired mix of play drivers and complementary linemates. I could certainly see Perreault utilized as a 3rd line driver in some lineups but neither Laine nor Ehlers really drive the play (perhaps Ehlers does by utilizing his extraordinary speed). Wheeler also is a play driver that might be utilized very nicely on certain 2nd line combinations- even though there is no RW on the team that is as elite and productive as himself.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think the only thing there that could change is Enstrom-Buff and Kuli-Myers instead
Enstrom-Buff has usually been a good pairing for us and one could argue that both are better than the other two, leaving a clear bottom pairing (which is still quite good).

IIRC we discussed that possibility earlier. It is certainly a possibility but I thought the consensus was that Toby - Buff might not be as good now as it once was. Nothing definite, just maybe.

There seems to be a lot of doubt about how good Toby still is - or is not. His offence has evaporated but he is still good defensively, AFAIK, even last year. There is also hope that he will rebound after a tough situation last year. I think that most felt it would be safe to put him on the 3rd pair. At worst he should still be way better than a typical 3rd pair D and Kulikov - Buff is probably a good combination.

It could still go either way but I don't know that there is much to discuss until we get at least a sampling of the different combinations. Here we are doing it though.

TBH, there is still lots to discuss about line combinations in the top 9 as well. Who those 9 will be is pretty firm I think, in spite of Maurice trying to pretend otherwise.