Confirmed with Link: Trade: Peter Budaj & Patrick Holland for Eric Tangradi (mod warning post #863)

[Sweech]

I still don't understand how people are calling this a good trade? The "I told you so" crowd must have no idea what's going down on St. Johns.

All this trade does is weaken our AHL team. Our AHL team needs scorers. BADLY. Tangradi is a proven near ppg scorer in the AHL.

We did not need a vet goalie. Danny Taylor was a proven good AHL goalie.

Still a baffling trade.

 

[garret9]

I could argue that the other would be slightly misleading just as well. Why don't we all just agree that Chevy has yet to establish himself as a strong trader? As it turns out this was a very minor deal. It provided some wise (IMO) insurance. I'll give Chevy full credit for foresight with this. Does it demonstrate that he is a cunning horsetrader? No.

I have no idea if Chevy is a good or bad trader.

I personally don't view his NHL player for player streak broken since neither team was intending in gaining a NHL player.

The second thing is only an anecdotal fact though.

 

[Moe Mantha]

Well, this armchair GM was... *possibly* a little hasty earlier and would like to...reaffirm his allegiance to this city's hockey team and its human General Manager. May not be perfect, but he's still the best GM we have. For now.

 

[jetdiehard]

Could you tell us on the following question.
When Badja is waived and cleared waivers , can the Jets renegotiate his salary?
Or are they stuck with his old salary.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Who says they did not try to make a deal and the Jets were told to pound sand. We need better goal-tending; however, just because HF forum wants a better goaltender does not mean that a better goaltender was available and willing to come to Winnipeg.

I'm not going to bother arguing against imaginary points, sorry. Those guys were all traded relatively recently and relatively cheaply. That's enough. They were available. We didn't get them. Those are known facts.

 

[Koonta]

I still don't understand how people are calling this a good trade? The "I told you so" crowd must have no idea what's going down on St. Johns.

All this trade does is weaken our AHL team. Our AHL team needs scorers. BADLY. Tangradi is a proven near ppg scorer in the AHL.

We did not need a vet goalie. Danny Taylor was a proven good AHL goalie.

Still a baffling trade.

Well if an injury to either Pavs or Hutchinson happens don't you think having an experienced NHL goaltender ready to step in is not a prudent move. I'm not overly concerned about this weakening the AHL team at all. As well maybe this allows more of an opportunity for a player like Kosmachuk to get more minutes in his first pro year and not to mention the new guy Holland may turn out alright (don't know too much about him)

This is Hellyebucyk's first season as a pro if an injury to one of the two goalies on the main team happens do we want to throw him to the wolves? maybe he immediately shines but I'd rather have someone with experience as insurance.

 

[aj8000]

I'm not going to bother arguing against imaginary points, sorry. Those guys were all traded relatively recently and relatively cheaply. That's enough. They were available. We didn't get them. Those are known facts.

That is the problem, your argument assumes that they would have come to Winnipeg in the first place and the cost to acquire said player via trade would not cost us some good prospects or a first round pick.

since we are not privy to the possible deals that the jets tried, I will give them the benefit of the doubt for the moment.

 

[Sweech]

Well if an injury to either Pavs or Hutchinson happens don't you think having an experienced NHL goaltender ready to step in is not a prudent move. I'm not overly concerned about this weakening the AHL team at all. As well maybe this allows more of an opportunity for a player like Kosmachuk to get more minutes in his first pro year and not to mention the new guy Holland may turn out alright (don't know too much about him)

This is Hellyebucyk's first season as a pro if an injury to one of the two goalies on the main team happens do we want to throw him to the wolves? maybe he immediately shines but I'd rather have someone with experience as insurance.

Not really.

If Pavs or Hutch goes down Budaj has proven he can't be a starter in any meaningful way at all, so it still does nothing for us. Not to mention there have been teams that can address those issues perfectly fine through free agency. Look at what Minnesota had to do last year when goalies were dropping like flies for them. Budaj is not an improvement on any goalie they acquired. Not to mention you can acquire a goalie of Budaj's talents (or better) through trade at any time of the year.

I'd also rather our prospects develop on a winning team. That's not going to happen this year unless scorers are added to the squad. Kosmachuk didn't need Moullierat, Samson, Gordon, and O'Dell to leave and not get replaced in order to get icetime.

As I said, this trade makes our AHL team worse and does nothing else.

 

[SensibleGuy]

Pavs had a .901 save percent last year, what would you consider a good save percent would be for Pavs so you would figure that he was a good NHL goaltender? ? .910, .920, .930, other?

Well, since league average is .915 or so, that would be a nice place for Pav to be at least. .920 would be lovely!

 

[Evil Little]

I feel like far too much ink has already been spilled over this 'current NHL roster player for current NHL roster player' nonsense--you've never heard the term before because it's not a thing. It's cherry picking to make a point about 'inactivity' but that would only make any point if a current NHL roster player for current NHL roster player trade--henceforth to be known as a CNHLRPFCNHLRPT, since obviously it's a major measure by which to guage the health of an organization--trades are the only management activity at one's disposal.

I still don't understand how people are calling this a good trade? The "I told you so" crowd must have no idea what's going down on St. Johns.

All this trade does is weaken our AHL team. Our AHL team needs scorers. BADLY. Tangradi is a proven near ppg scorer in the AHL.

We did not need a vet goalie. Danny Taylor was a proven good AHL goalie.

Still a baffling trade.

Understandable, but it's hard for me to criticize the trade at this stage. I have no idea how much faith Cheveldayoff had in Danny Taylor, how much he wanted to get rid of Tangradi and his salary, how much Budaj's mentorship is being valued, et c.

Could you tell us on the following question.
When Badja is waived and cleared waivers , can the Jets renegotiate his salary?
Or are they stuck with his old salary.

Stuck with the old salary, for one season, which is the remainder of his contract.

Part of the reason the trade was made, from a Habs viewpoint was that Budaj was being paid enough that 1/3 of his salary would count against the salary cap, which matters a great deal to the Habs, but very little to the Jets.

I believe all NHL contracts are 'guaranteed', though there are outs written in that cover some things--if a player can't report due to criminal trouble, for example. I don't know how Kovalchuk got out of his, and more importantly how NJ doesn't see the cap hit for it.

 

[Bartho]

I flew to Cancun yesterday so I missed all the hilarious drama and consternation. I had a chance to go through this this thread while the kids were napping and it sure was entertaining. I must say I'm very pleased with this trade and Chevy certainly made something out of nothing. Budaj will be a solid mentor on the rock and an experienced depth call up should injuries occur.

I am sure you agree , but isn't it looking more and more that Chevy actually has a plan and knows what he is doing?

Not according to the "logicians" among us who couldn't have been any more wrong about this trade.

 

[AriIQ]

I'm not going to bother arguing against imaginary points, sorry. Those guys were all traded relatively recently and relatively cheaply. That's enough. They were available. We didn't get them. Those are known facts.

If he can't make the arguement that we don't know if these players wanted to come here or not; then you can't act like you know they would for sure.

 

[Sweech]

I feel like far too much ink has already been spilled over this 'current NHL roster player for current NHL roster player' nonsense--you've never heard the term before because it's not a thing. It's cherry picking to make a point about 'inactivity' but that would only make any point if a current NHL roster player for current NHL roster player trade--henceforth to be known as a CNHLRPFCNHLRPT, since obviously it's a major measure by which to guage the health of an organization--trades are the only management activity at one's disposal.



Understandable, but it's hard for me to criticize the trade at this stage. I have no idea how much faith Cheveldayoff had in Danny Taylor, how much he wanted to get rid of Tangradi and his salary, how much Budaj's mentorship is being valued, et c.



Stuck with the old salary, for one season, which is the remainder of his contract.

Part of the reason the trade was made, from a Habs viewpoint was that Budaj was being paid enough that 1/3 of his salary would count against the salary cap, which matters a great deal to the Habs, but very little to the Jets.

I believe all NHL contracts are 'guaranteed', though there are outs written in that cover some things--if a player can't report due to criminal trouble, for example. I don't know how Kovalchuk got out of his, and more importantly how NJ doesn't see the cap hit for it.

I'll try and address some of these things piece by piece.

1) I think the roster player for roster player isn't important, but there's no doubting we have one of the least active GMs in the league. Holland is renowned for not making roster moves, but that probably has something to do with the fact he is running a perennial playoff team. Jim Nil may eventually start doing the same after a flurry of activity to improve his team, he may begin to sit back and let the team improve over time. The difference is this team has no success to build on. Sitting on our hands sounds like a recipe for disaster and even the GMs known for sitting on their hands like Holland make player for player trades.

2) I don't know how much faith Chevy had in Taylor either, but the proof is in the pudding and the proof is that Danny Taylor is a good AHL goalie. Period. His entire career shows this.

3) You can't say Chevy wanted to get rid of Tangradi's salary when we just made a deal to acquire much more salary than we gave away. That doesn't make sense. So far Chevy's career has shown he can't judge goalies very well. Although it seems those he hired as junior scouts can.

4) Kovalchuk officially "retired" from the NHL making them able to ditch his contract completely. The new CBA has addressed this though and teams now have to watch out for their players who retire before their long term contract is up or else they'll be hit with a very sizeable cap penalty.

 

[Sweech]

Not according to the "logicians" among us who couldn't have been any more wrong about this trade.

Oh really? "couldn't have been more wrong"?

Care to explain to me how this makes our NHL team or our AHL team better? Because I can explain to you how it makes our AHL team worse.

 

[Sam I Am]

Well if an injury to either Pavs or Hutchinson happens don't you think having an experienced NHL goaltender ready to step in is not a prudent move. I'm not overly concerned about this weakening the AHL team at all. As well maybe this allows more of an opportunity for a player like Kosmachuk to get more minutes in his first pro year and not to mention the new guy Holland may turn out alright (don't know too much about him)

This is Hellyebucyk's first season as a pro if an injury to one of the two goalies on the main team happens do we want to throw him to the wolves? maybe he immediately shines but I'd rather have someone with experience as insurance.

$1.4M/year is a high premium to pay for insurance. Even if it doesn't count against the cap.

I can't help thinking that Budaj will eventually be recalled to back-up Pavalec and Hutchinson will get more seasoning at the AHL level.

 

[Sweech]

$1.4M/year is a high premium to pay for insurance. Even if it doesn't count against the cap.

...Except it will count against the cap even if he's in the AHL.

Dumb trade is dumb.

 

[SensibleGuy]

I flew to Cancun yesterday so I missed all the hilarious drama and consternation. I had a chance to go through this this thread while the kids were napping and it sure was entertaining. I must say I'm very pleased with this trade and Chevy certainly made something out of nothing. Budaj will be a solid mentor on the rock and an experienced depth call up should injuries occur.



Not according to the "logicians" among us who couldn't have been any more wrong about this trade.

Hmmm....I'm having a hard time understanding what some of you are talking about. Us "whiners" were concerned about this trade because there was a lot of suspicion that it meant Hutch was about to get sent back down based upon a brief (and admittedly not awesome) preseason tryout. The problem was that it appeared as though the organization may have banked on Hutch coming into TC and - I don't know - posting a .930 sv% or something in a couple of preseason games behind a line-up of prospects and a few not really trying vets and that having not done so the Org now decided to find a real back-up. That seems like pretty poor planning when there were better tenders available over the summer.

Much of the discussion that ensued was about the possibility of Budaj being sent down rather than Hutch - and many felt that was not a very probable option. Most all of us agreed that this was an OK deal as long as Budaj was the guy going down - which is what happened and essentially proves "us" correct. In other words, it looks to me like us "whiners" are the ones who won this debate and yet somehow the other side is claiming some sort of "victory"?

 

[SensibleGuy]

...Except it will count against the cap even if he's in the AHL.

Dumb trade is dumb.

Yeah, but the Jets aren't up against the cap anyway so meh...it's Chipman's money.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

...Except it will count against the cap even if he's in the AHL.

Dumb trade is dumb.

I'm being pedantic as I'm sure you know this, but only around 500k will count. I think Budaj will do fine for the Icecaps too - what's your big concern regarding Budaj in the AHL Sweech? His previous AHL numbers?

Personally, I don't consider it dumb. We got rid of a player that obviously wasn't in the Jets plans, picked up another forward for the Icecaps (I'll give you that Tangradi may have scored at a better rate), and got goaltending insurance for the Icecaps and Jets at the same time. Best deal ever? Not at all, but it's not horrible.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

That is the problem, your argument assumes that they would have come to Winnipeg in the first place and the cost to acquire said player via trade would not cost us some good prospects or a first round pick.

since we are not privy to the possible deals that the jets tried, I will give them the benefit of the doubt for the moment.

And your argument assumes something imaginary. Players without NMC don't get to decide. I didn't bother to look up those details because that was just a quick and dirty list to answer your question which has been asked and answered many times already. We know the costs, exactly, for each of those. None was what I would consider very expensive. In fact most of them were practically free. Remember, we didn't need to acquire ALL of them. Any one would do. I doubt they ALL had NMC's. There are at least half a dozen more if those 4 did. The point is that there have been lots of good goalies available cheap over the last 3 years. Surely we could have dragged one of them here in chains.

 

[King Woodballs]

...Except it will count against the cap even if he's in the AHL.

Dumb trade is dumb.

450k will
As a non can team who cares

And who says he would be a starter if Pavelec or hutch got hurt?
Because he would only be the back up.

 

[Koonta]

Not really.

If Pavs or Hutch goes down Budaj has proven he can't be a starter in any meaningful way at all, so it still does nothing for us. Not to mention there have been teams that can address those issues perfectly fine through free agency. Look at what Minnesota had to do last year when goalies were dropping like flies for them. Budaj is not an improvement on any goalie they acquired. Not to mention you can acquire a goalie of Budaj's talents (or better) through trade at any time of the year.

I'd also rather our prospects develop on a winning team. That's not going to happen this year unless scorers are added to the squad. Kosmachuk didn't need Moullierat, Samson, Gordon, and O'Dell to leave and not get replaced in order to get icetime.

As I said, this trade makes our AHL team worse and does nothing else.

Well I guess I'm in the camp that view it as a positive that they added experienced goaltending (not saying great but veteran) depth now instead of perhaps having to scramble in mid-season to get someone flown in. Budaj by all accounts would be a good mentor for Hellyebucyk (if he maintains the right attitude which from what I've heard he is the consunmate professional. This does also depend on what kind of player Holland becomes.

I'm happy that they haven't given up on Hutch yet and will give him a proper chance. What it comes down to is I guess that goaltending remains a huge question mark for the Jets and getting Budaj doesn't put pressure on Pavs but maybe puts pressure on Hutch. One thing is I wish they had brought in more competition before training camp as to me this seems all a little last minute and waiting mid season would be worse in my opinion.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

If he can't make the arguement that we don't know if these players wanted to come here or not; then you can't act like you know they would for sure.

There are known facts and there are speculative unknowns. I merely limited myself to known facts. If I cared to take the trouble I could dig up some more knowns, like which of those players had NMCs and which did not. Most players do not. We need only one. I'm pretty sure there must be one among the 10 or so moved in the last 3 years without a NMC. Or, "if he can't make the arguement that we don't know if these players wanted to come here or not" then I will simply use the argument that we don't know that they did not.

 

[Sweech]

I'm being pedantic as I'm sure you know this, but only around 500k will count. I think Budaj will do fine for the Icecaps too - what's your big concern regarding Budaj in the AHL Sweech? His previous AHL numbers?

Personally, I don't consider it dumb. We got rid of a player that obviously wasn't in the Jets plans, picked up another forward for the Icecaps (I'll give you that Tangradi may have scored at a better rate), and got goaltending insurance for the Icecaps and Jets at the same time. Best deal ever? Not at all, but it's not horrible.

No. I think Budaj will be a perfectly acceptable AHL goalie if we call on him. I just think downgrading Tangradi to Holland in order to upgrade Taylor to Budaj is a bad idea because of the AHL team's needs. They didn't need better goaltending, they needed better scoring and they went in the opposite direction with this move.

I don't see any goaltending insurance here. Danny Taylor is a proven AHL caliber decent goalie, so there was no crying need for Budaj there. Budaj has at best put up "backup level" (AKA not very good) numbers in the NHL his whole career basically, so that's not insurance either. Playing him in the NHL won't give you better results than a street scrub like Bryzgalov would.

So in total we downgraded the AHL's scoring to basically shuffle the goaltending deck. Oh! And it costed us more money to do so.

Well I guess I'm in the camp that view it as a positive that they added experienced goaltending (not saying great but veteran) depth now instead of perhaps having to scramble in mid-season to get someone flown in. Budaj by all accounts would be a good mentor for Hellyebucyk (if he maintains the right attitude which from what I've heard he is the consunmate professional. This does also depend on what kind of player Holland becomes.

I'm happy that they haven't given up on Hutch yet and will give him a proper chance. What it comes down to is I guess that goaltending remains a huge question mark for the Jets and getting Budaj doesn't put pressure on Pavs but maybe puts pressure on Hutch. One thing is I wish they had brought in more competition before training camp as to me this seems all a little last minute and waiting mid season would be worse in my opinion.

Acquiring Budaj does nothing to help the NHL club. He's a proven below average NHL asset in net. Calling him a "solid proven backup" or anything of the like doesn't help the fact that his numbers have always been bad and that's why he's a backup. I'd rather constantly be shuffling the deck with players like Hutchinson and Zatkoff who could be potential NHL starters instead of going with what people call a "proven backup" which really just means "proven to not be good enough to start". If someone like Zatkoff or Hutch are given a chance and prove that they can't start then cast them aside and try someone else. Don't stick with a solid backup who actually isn't solid.

Also the whole mentor thing for Hellebuyck isn't something I fully buy. The person filling that role should be the goalie coach, if he can help Hellebuyck learnt he ropes and improve him as a goalie then hire someone else.

Yeah, but the Jets aren't up against the cap anyway so meh...it's Chipman's money.

Chipman's money which for some reason Chevy would rather spend on an AHL goalie instead of tying down Frolik to a long term contract instead of running the risk that he walks in free agency next year.

Who would you rather have Frolik or Budaj?

 

[SensibleGuy]

...and the Jets were .015 sv% away from the postseason.