Confirmed Signing with Link: [TOR] T.J. Brodie signs with the Maple Leafs (4 years, $5M AAV)

[Legion34]

Every single playoff bubble team can come up with a list of excuses as to why they didn't do better.
The bottom line is that every team deals with injuries to key players and has holes in its lineups. The top teams simply play through those issues instead of making lame excuses.

agreed. But that’s not the point. The point is comparing the differences in team year by year. The allegation was the chief difference was backup goaltending.

the leafs were on a higher pace despite massive injury disadvantages when backup goaltending was not involved

 

[Dache]

1.) you are discussing the allegation backup goaltending is the main difference. You compare the results without backup goaltending. It’s pretty simple

2.) if we take out the back up goaltending. This years leaf team is actually slightly better

3.) this is despite the massive injury disadvantage

1) I’m actually debating the opposite. I’m saying they’re decline in points is not due to not having a vezina backup.
2) removing games played by a certain player is a ridiculous way to evaluate improvement. What if those were also the games Matthews was injured, sure doesn’t seem fair to the backup.
3) injuries are not a disadvantage in a contact league that sees every team have injuries.

 

[FerrisRox]

Outside him and Muzzin, I don't get scared looking at the team toughness, the skill is a different animal.

Zach Hyman has some jam in his game, but the point remains, they are way too soft.

 

[Oilers Propagandist]

Ah, that makes it so much better you are derailing it into once again shitting on Flames players. Very good point.

What are you talking about and who is crapping on who? The initial post I commented on was rubi calling Andersson a #2 d which is a complete joke in my opinion. If you want to talk about the flames, this is not the thread. We can happily take the convo to the Oilers OOT board if you want to continue.

 

[Legion34]

1) I’m actually debating the opposite. I’m saying they’re decline in points is not due to not having a vezina backup.
2) removing games played by a certain player is a ridiculous way to evaluate improvement. What if those were also the games Matthews was injured, sure doesn’t seem fair to the backup.
3) injuries are not a disadvantage in a contact league that sees every team have injuries.

Comparing year by year is always going to be Imperfect. If you want to say that the decline In points isn’t due to the decline in backup goaltending.......


Then why is the team actually slightly better this year when they didn’t play their back up?


Kinda odd logic

 

[WetcoastOrca]

agreed. But that’s not the point. The point is comparing the differences in team year by year. The allegation was the chief difference was backup goaltending.

the leafs were on a higher pace despite massive injury disadvantages when backup goaltending was not involved

That's irrelevant. The bottom line is that they were on pace for fewer points. As for massive injuries, there were other teams who had worse injuries and still played well.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Zach Hyman has some jam in his game, but the point remains, they are way too soft.

Ya good call, don't know why I forgot him, definitely plays with an edge and averages around 100 or more hits per year.

 

[Fogelhund]

All the opponent fans obsessed with the Leafs, in one thread. It's glorious. Funny thing... this was originally about Brodie, which was a great signing. Maybe someone should get this back on track, and stop feeding the trolls.

 

[Dache]

Comparing year by year is always going to be Imperfect. If you want to say that the decline In points isn’t due to the decline in backup goaltending.......


Then why is the team actually slightly better this year when they didn’t play their back up?


Kinda odd logic

So you’re just ignoring my answer to that and asking the same question again?
Kinda odd question.

 

[Oilers Propagandist]

All the opponent fans obsessed with the Leafs, in one thread. It's glorious. Funny thing... this was originally about Brodie, which was a great signing. Maybe someone should get this back on track, and stop feeding the trolls.

It’s an okay signing, you’ll see sooner than later how much Gio masked Brodies play. I would have tried him out only for 1 season before committing to him with term.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You say 2017-18 was an anomaly, and that’s the reason why you had a decrease in points for 2018-19, but they also had a worse points pace this year, so the vezina backup excuse doesn’t work anymore.

Huh? We still didn't get Vezina-quality backup goaltending; it doesn't stop being true. Backup goaltending went from top of the league in 2017-2018, to relatively average in 2018-2019, to bottom of the league in 2019-2020 (with Andersen also struggling). That, and the complete flip in shootout record is a big part of the reason they have gotten less points than 2017-2018, despite team improvements.

And I explained about the injuries already, that’s no excuse. Every team has injuries.

Every team has injuries, but not to the same extent over each season. Impact varies greatly. The Leafs had more injuries last season than any of their previous seasons, by far. They had increased depth, so were able to mitigate the impact better.

But you’re trying to paint this picture that they’re improving every year but in reality, in the categories that count they haven’t been.

They have improved in everything except goaltending and shootout record compared to 2017-2018. Not sure why you would think that backup goaltending and the shootout are the "categories that count".

 

[Legion34]

That's irrelevant. The bottom line is that they were on pace for fewer points. As for massive injuries, there were other teams who had worse injuries and still played well.

??? It’s entirely relevant. If you make the claim that the decline in points is NOT due to the back up goalie... then the team should not perform
Better without the back up goalie than the record
Point total.

It’s pretty basic

 

[Dache]

Huh? We still didn't get Vezina-quality backup goaltending; it doesn't stop being true. Backup goaltending went from top of the league in 2017-2018, to relatively average in 2018-2019, to bottom of the league in 2019-2020

So you’re trying to say that they actually need vezina quality backup goaltending to improve? And are you really just not counting the fact that they signed Tavares in the off-season after you “vezina backup” so essentially backup goaltender > 1C? How could signing Tavares, Matthews and Marner improving not be enough to make up for a decline in backup goaltending 2 years in a row?

 

[WetcoastOrca]

??? It’s entirely relevant. If you make the claim that the decline in points is NOT due to the back up goalie... then the team should not perform
Better without the back up goalie than the record
Point total.

It’s pretty basic

It's not basic at all. You can improve the back up goaltending but it doesn't mean there won't be other weaknesses that are exposed. The bottom line is that the top teams overcome these issues while the bubble teams get exposed and make excuses. Cherry picking 'on pace' points doesn't change the fact that there actual points declined and have now fallen three years in a row.

 

[Legion34]

So you’re just ignoring my answer to that and asking the same question again?
Kinda odd question.

You make the claim that backup goaltending didn’t cause the “decline”. The team performed slightly better when back up wasn’t playing.

it doesn’t get any clearer than that. It’s pretty simple.

Player can do 105 push-ups with no extra weight.
1 year later

player can do 95 pushups with 100 of dead lbs on his back.

“he got weaker”.

take the 100lbs off his back and he does 107

nope. Still weaker. The deadweight had nothing to do with it.

 

[Legion34]

It's not basic at all. You can improve the back up goaltending but it doesn't mean there won't be other weaknesses that are exposed. The bottom line is that the top teams overcome these issues while the bubble teams get exposed.
The Leafs have now fallen in points three years in a row.

yes. And their back up goaltending has fallen 3 years in a row.

see a pattern?

 

[Dache]

You make the claim that backup goaltending didn’t cause the “decline”. The team performed slightly better when back up wasn’t playing.

it doesn’t get any clearer than that. It’s pretty simple.

Player can do 105 push-ups with no extra weight.
1 year later

player can do 95 pushups with 100 of dead lbs on his back.

“he got weaker”.

take the 100lbs off his back and he does 107

nope. Still weaker. The deadweight had nothing to do with it.

That analogy makes zero sense first of all. Secondly, are you telling me that every single other aspect was exactly the same for the backup goalie as the Andersen this year? And I’ll ask you what I asked the other poster. How is signing a franchise, elite 1C, plus the improvements of Marner and Matthews not able to overcome the decline from a vezina quality backup season? Is a back up goaltender really > Tavares plus Mathews and Marner improving that year?

 

[WetcoastOrca]

yes. And their back up goaltending has fallen 3 years in a row.

see a pattern?

Yep. Poor backup goalie, poor D, lack of commitment to two way play by offensive players, lack of grit and poor depth to cover for injuries. Too soon to say whether the net changes are positive, negative or neutral.
You seem to think plugging one hole fixes all of the problems. That's way too simplistic.

 

[PB37]

If Brodie can return to form, it's a fair deal.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

1) I’m actually debating the opposite. I’m saying they’re decline in points is not due to not having a vezina backup.
2) removing games played by a certain player is a ridiculous way to evaluate improvement. What if those were also the games Matthews was injured, sure doesn’t seem fair to the backup.
3) injuries are not a disadvantage in a contact league that sees every team have injuries.

A Vezina quality backup isn't needed but Sparks and Hutchinson couldn't play at all you still need an NHL caliber backup, until they got Campbell they didn't have that.

now they have 3 NHL goalies so backup goaltending won't be an issue.

That's a 10-15 point improvement by itself

 

[Deadly Dogma]

Yep. Poor backup goalie, poor D, lack of commitment to two way play by offensive players, lack of grit and poor depth to cover for injuries. Too soon to say whether the net changes are positive, negative or neutral.
You seem to think plugging one hole fixes all of the problems. That's way too simplistic.

I am late to the party but Hutch was soo bad for us, literally threw away at least 14 points

 

[Nanuuk]

If Brodie can return to form, it's a fair deal.

His form never left him. It is a good deal.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Huh? We still didn't get Vezina-quality backup goaltending; it doesn't stop being true. Backup goaltending went from top of the league in 2017-2018, to relatively average in 2018-2019, to bottom of the league in 2019-2020 (with Andersen also struggling). That, and the complete flip in shootout record is a big part of the reason they have gotten less points than 2017-2018, despite team improvements.

Every team has injuries, but not to the same extent over each season. Impact varies greatly. The Leafs had more injuries last season than any of their previous seasons, by far. They had increased depth, so were able to mitigate the impact better.

They have improved in everything except goaltending and shootout record compared to 2017-2018. Not sure why you would think that backup goaltending and the shootout are the "categories that count".

Backup goaltending counts A LOT and no there was nothing average about the Leafs backup goaltending in 18-19.

3.15 GAA and a 902 save% isn't average or even below average it's disgraceful that's why they basically kicked him off the team by the playoffs.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Backup goaltending counts A LOT and no there was nothing average about the Leafs backup goaltending in 18-19.

3.15 GAA and a 902 save% isn't average or even below average it's disgraceful that's why they basically kicked him off the team by the playoffs.

Those back up goalie stats don't look a lot different than Andersen's last year over a much larger sample size. Maybe the issues run deeper?
But yes, goaltending was a big issue. The Leafs had a number of reasons for falling in points last year. Back up goaltending was one of them for sure. But there were a number of others including poor starting goaltending, poor D, lack of commitment to two way play by the star forwards, poor grit and a lack of quality depth. It's too soon to say whether the off season changes will reverse the trend of declining points in the last few years.
But on the topic of Brodie, I do like the signing. I'm not sold on the depth moves though.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

I am late to the party but Hutch was soo bad for us, literally threw away at least 14 points

Why did Dubie re-sign him then?