Player Discussion Thomas Chabot (D) Part 2

[Wondercarrot]

wtf is going on in this thread lol

Chabot is a #4D?!
Somewhat effective?
lmfao

Some perspective is probably useful here.
Chabot has played 40 games and has 7 goals 25 pts.
Let’s see what that looks like if he had played the same number of games as everyone else.
69 games 12 goals 40pts

Well how about that…
Top 10 in the NHL in goals
Top 20 in the NHL in points.

Want to complain that he’s injured too much, fine I guess, but this absurd nonsense that he isn’t a #1 defenceman is absurd.
You want to qualify it as low end #1 or high end #2 fine, he’s somewhere between 20-40

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

High level offensive player. Needs to tighten up his defensive game for sure.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I would like to keep Chabby. I think the biggest change to the room outside of goalkeeping will be the coach and his staff.

We have never had an experienced, in his prime coach that knows what he wants and can command the respect from the group and drive their play.

DJ was the mentor for the kids, and Jacque is the legendary grandpa, but also interim, guy who can’t skate with the team at practice. Alfie is a HHOFer and will command a certain level of respect, but he is brand new behind the bench and is also likely for a front office job at the end of the season.

That’s a recipe for a listless ship that doesn’t have a strong direction to pull in. Sure they are drilling down fundamentals such as line changes, defensive positioning and stick & board play, which is great and shows, but they don’t really have an identity right now and aren’t really looking like a cohesive unit.

Thats where the next coaching staff hire is so key. We need the next 5 years to be honing the talent to be a well oiled machine. The kids need a winner and strong personality in there that they can rally behind and learn from, who knows how to coach and win at the NHL level.

To me that’s Berube at the moment, and being friends with Keith should be a bonus not a detriment.

 

[Wondercarrot]

High level offensive player. Needs to tighten up his defensive game for sure.

i agree but it’s not remotely as bad as is being made out to be here.
he plays almost 24 minutes a night and is only -3 on a team that’s -29
Why everyone is in such a hurry to tear apart this guy is weird.

 

[JungleBeat]

He just doesn’t care. Clearly we see him play good hockey early in his career but he mailed it in the past few seasons.

Out of all the bums on the team who don’t care he’s the one I’d keep to see if he turns it around with a different coach.

 

[Boud]

i agree but it’s not remotely as bad as is being made out to be here.
he plays almost 24 minutes a night and is only -3 on a team that’s -29
Why everyone is in such a hurry to tear apart this guy is weird.

Pair that with the fact that we haven't had an adequate defense for a while now and it's even more puzzling. It's not like we have Victor Hedman in the pipeline coming up, we have nothing coming. We need Chabot if we want to go anywhere near the playoffs for next year. In retrospect it was a big mistake to trade away Demelo (and even back then - it was not a good idea given we had no clue what Thomson and JBD would end up being).

We'd be in much better shape this year with Demelo + assets we lost in the Chychrun trade.

Oh well.

 

[Boud]

He just doesn’t care. Clearly we see him play good hockey early in his career but he mailed it in the past few seasons.

Out of all the bums on the team who don’t care he’s the one I’d keep to see if he turns it around with a different coach.

I think this perception of him being lazy is not accurate at all. The guy has been used like he was the best defensemen in the NHL for the past 6-7 years. Some years there were pretty significant stretches where he was playing close to 30 minutes a night. This organization let him down big time. Not finding him a top 4 level partner was a huge mistake from Dorion. Those years we pretty much had 1 top 4 defensemen, sometimes 2.

He had to change his game to be able to play that much. You can't be jumping into the play at full speed all the time when you play that much and also don't have anyone reliable beside you to cover for your inevitable mistakes. It definitely made him more selective (or less energetic) in his play because he just couldn't play any other way. During those years, he was on the only pair threading water getting matched against best players in the league night in and night out - with forwards in front of him who were not even close to as good as the opponents.

Any good defensemen playing that much on a nightly basis needs to have a good and reliable partner. He hasn't mailed it in at all IMO - he needs help. He's been playing on a team where the ice was seriously tilted against him and the main focus of the team has been to stop the bleeding rather than outscore the opponent.

 

[JD1]

Not crazy whatsoever, common sense really.

A guy who can naturally play on the right side and contrast his game. Shouldn’t be very hard to find. But we’ve recycled guys into that role for the past 5 years. Then for some reason thought adding another left handed offensive D on the right was a wise decision.

There was a time our GM told us that Zubs contract coincided with Thomson and JBD transitioning into the top 4. That’s where we put all our eggs for the right side, and we are feeling those effects now.

JBD might get there but that aside, the lack of effort that Chabot put into the play the other night where Orlov scored has nothing to do with coaching unless you want to look at it and say his ass never should have seen the ice again. He's 27 years old, fresh off a 5 game absence, in the first period so not tired, and too lazy to chase down a play where he's caught in the O zone.

Martin was right when he said they'll never win playing like they do.

 

[Tuna99]

I would like to keep Chabby. I think the biggest change to the room outside of goalkeeping will be the coach and his staff.

We have never had an experienced, in his prime coach that knows what he wants and can command the respect from the group and drive their play.

DJ was the mentor for the kids, and Jacque is the legendary grandpa, but also interim, guy who can’t skate with the team at practice. Alfie is a HHOFer and will command a certain level of respect, but he is brand new behind the bench and is also likely for a front office job at the end of the season.

That’s a recipe for a listless ship that doesn’t have a strong direction to pull in. Sure they are drilling down fundamentals such as line changes, defensive positioning and stick & board play, which is great and shows, but they don’t really have an identity right now and aren’t really looking like a cohesive unit.

Thats where the next coaching staff hire is so key. We need the next 5 years to be honing the talent to be a well oiled machine. The kids need a winner and strong personality in there that they can rally behind and learn from, who knows how to coach and win at the NHL level.

To me that’s Berube at the moment, and being friends with Keith should be a bonus not a detriment.

Chabot is only 27 - the next 10 years of his career could easily be the best of his career and he could bring in some major hardware like a Cup - when you think about how this team has sucked for so long and not had a ton to cheer about on or off the ice since he got here and Chabot has never really shown bad body language or spoken in frustration in the media. To me that is a pro and a guy you want in your lockerroom.

 

[Alex1234]

Well sure, he won’t be anchoring 4 of the top teams with 4 of the best blue lines in the league.

Not everything is points, that should be obvious. Minutes and role given to each player should let you know who is where on the depth chart. Zub is more reliable, that’s his role. A 20-21 minute a night guy who plays tough minutes. And he’s very, very good at it.

Chabot, or whomever will be anchoring the 2nd pair, will be playing ~22/23 minutes a night.

Like this year, Sanderson is playing 23 mins, Zub 21 mins, Chabot 24 and Chuchrun 22:30.

Sanderson will be getting the 24+ role moving forward, Chabot/2nd pair anchor will be getting the 22/23ish role, Zub will keep his 21 mins per game, and whoever they bring in to play the right side on the 2nd pair should be getting 19/20ish.

OK Thanks for clarifying your post

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

I think this perception of him being lazy is not accurate at all. The guy has been used like he was the best defensemen in the NHL for the past 6-7 years. Some years there were pretty significant stretches where he was playing close to 30 minutes a night. This organization let him down big time. Not finding him a top 4 level partner was a huge mistake from Dorion. Those years we pretty much had 1 top 4 defensemen, sometimes 2.

He had to change his game to be able to play that much. You can't be jumping into the play at full speed all the time when you play that much and also don't have anyone reliable beside you to cover for your inevitable mistakes. It definitely made him more selective (or less energetic) in his play because he just couldn't play any other way. During those years, he was on the only pair threading water getting matched against best players in the league night in and night out - with forwards in front of him who were not even close to as good as the opponents.

Any good defensemen playing that much on a nightly basis needs to have a good and reliable partner. He hasn't mailed it in at all IMO - he needs help. He's been playing on a team where the ice was seriously tilted against him and the main focus of the team has been to stop the bleeding rather than outscore the opponent.

It's like watching a guy run a marathon, do really well, run another marathon the next day, do really well, then run a marathon the next day where he's dragging his feet and saying "eh, this guy just doesn't care to run hard"

 

[DueDiligence]

habot has played 40 games and has 7 goals 25 pts.
Let’s see what that looks like if he had played the same number of games as everyone else.
69 games 12 goals 40pts

Well how about that…
Top 10 in the NHL in goals
Top 20 in the NHL in points.

Well he is a top 20 offensive Dman. But where he pales in comparison with his peers is in his own end of the ice. At best he is an average defender which drops him down in the pecking order.

 

[BondraTime]

OK Thanks for clarifying your post

Not sure it needed clarification, it was extremely straightforward. The 4 teams you brought in was a strawman

 

[Alex1234]

Not sure it needed clarification, it was extremely straightforward. The 4 teams you brought in was a strawman

Thanks anyway

 

[Sting]

i agree but it’s not remotely as bad as is being made out to be here.
he plays almost 24 minutes a night and is only -3 on a team that’s -29
Why everyone is in such a hurry to tear apart this guy is weird.

I think it's because he is quite frankly terrible in the defensive zone and more specifically, in front of the net. I'd encourage anyone who doubts people's claims that Chabot is more of a #3/#4 to to isolate him when he's on the ice and watch what he's doing.

He's great at breakout passes, and good at getting shots through the net. When he wants to, he can be effective at rushing it himself.

Where he is downright terrible is making life tough on opponents. He makes poor reads and often scrambles in the defensive end leaving people wide open. Not only does he leave people wide open, but he also has no problem with giving opposing forwards multiple rebounds.

I don't think you can teach those things out of a guy at this point. The reason teams like Boston are so good is that they have a defensive core that protects and makes life hell for the opposition.

Between Chabot, Chych and Brann, it's way too easy to get to the net and it's why we have so many high danger chances against.

 

[JungleBeat]

I think this perception of him being lazy is not accurate at all. The guy has been used like he was the best defensemen in the NHL for the past 6-7 years. Some years there were pretty significant stretches where he was playing close to 30 minutes a night. This organization let him down big time. Not finding him a top 4 level partner was a huge mistake from Dorion. Those years we pretty much had 1 top 4 defensemen, sometimes 2.

He had to change his game to be able to play that much. You can't be jumping into the play at full speed all the time when you play that much and also don't have anyone reliable beside you to cover for your inevitable mistakes. It definitely made him more selective (or less energetic) in his play because he just couldn't play any other way. During those years, he was on the only pair threading water getting matched against best players in the league night in and night out - with forwards in front of him who were not even close to as good as the opponents.

Any good defensemen playing that much on a nightly basis needs to have a good and reliable partner. He hasn't mailed it in at all IMO - he needs help. He's been playing on a team where the ice was seriously tilted against him and the main focus of the team has been to stop the bleeding rather than outscore the opponent.

This year and last year he played with these dmen the most:

1 - Chychurn
2 - Zub
3 - JBD

Everything doesn’t have to do with his d partner. He’s seriously been bad and lazy. There were times when people would compare Chabot to Karlsson lol.

 

[Wondercarrot]

I think it's because he is quite frankly terrible in the defensive zone and more specifically, in front of the net. I'd encourage anyone who doubts people's claims that Chabot is more of a #3/#4 to to isolate him when he's on the ice and watch what he's doing.

He's great at breakout passes, and good at getting shots through the net. When he wants to, he can be effective at rushing it himself.

Where he is downright terrible is making life tough on opponents. He makes poor reads and often scrambles in the defensive end leaving people wide open. Not only does he leave people wide open, but he also has no problem with giving opposing forwards multiple rebounds.

I don't think you can teach those things out of a guy at this point. The reason teams like Boston are so good is that they have a defensive core that protects and makes life hell for the opposition.

Between Chabot, Chych and Brann, it's way too easy to get to the net and it's why we have so many high danger chances against.

I don’t disagree entirely, I’m saying the the tar and feathering here is over the top.
If we have too many of that “style of player” then it’s a bigger problem.
Regardless the guy is a 20-40 D man in the league, where he gets deployed is a matter of how your team is built.
People in here claiming he’s not one of the top 60 Dmen in the league is absurd.

Well he is a top 20 offensive Dman. But where he pales in comparison with his peers is in his own end of the ice. At best he is an average defender which drops him down in the pecking order.

and that’s why I said fit him somewhere in the top 40 Dmen

 

[Xspyrit]

I haven't dug into it but I think Chabot's defensive metrics are going to be good under Martin, I think they are using him more smartly/efficiently even if he doesn't have his Methot/DeMelo (big fail on Dorion to think Zaitsev was the guy Chabot needed)


For example, the recent Chabot-Brannstrom pairing has a 60.8% xGF% and only 1.95 xGA/60 (95.6 minutes together)


But it's crazy how these Chabot discussion reminds me of Spezza threads. You could just switch the names and wouldn't outside of position related stuff. I think "playing style" is easily confounded with attitude and effort. Yet, Spezza and Chabot were/are work horses and clearly wanted/want to win.

 

[StoicSensFan]

Now that Zub usually plays with Sanderson, hopefully we turn Chychrun into Matt Roy or pick up Demelo and another righty defensive D in the off season. I still believe we're just scratching the surface with Chabot.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I don't buy the ice time argument for why Chabot is a #1/#2 defenseman.

He plays a lot but if he's not performing well in those big minutes he shouldn't be considered a top 2 defenseman.

Cody Ceci was playing 22-24 minutes a game for us for several years but that didn't make him a top pairing defenseman because he wasn't playing that role effectively.

IMO Chabot is obviously a top 4 quality defenseman but is unlikely to justify his 8M cap hit and 9.5M average salary for the next 4 years.

Since we don't have cap issues we should keep him and hope he improves his all-around game as he matures, but I don't think there would be a lot of teams lining up to pay big value for him given the lack of demand for left-handed offensive D.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Well he is a top 20 offensive Dman. But where he pales in comparison with his peers is in his own end of the ice. At best he is an average defender which drops him down in the pecking order.

And where he is an elite defender - better than his counting points - is in transitioning the puck from offence to defence. Yes, he is better than many of the players ahead of him on that front.

That said, for sure, he's not a top 20 D in the league. But I haven't seen anyone claim otherwise (other than the analytics lol). The most bullish claim I've seen here is that he is somewhere in the 20-40 range.

 

[Micklebot]

This year and last year he played with these dmen the most:

1 - Chychurn
2 - Zub
3 - JBD

Everything doesn’t have to do with his d partner. He’s seriously been bad and lazy. There were times when people would compare Chabot to Karlsson lol.

Chychrun has been terrible in his time here and simply can't defend on his off side which is where he is when with Chabot (hasn't been great on his strong side either) and JBD is a 6/7Dman in this league, maybe a 5, not really seeing what exactly the point you're trying to make here especially when his numbers are all quite good with Zub, 54.1%GF, 52.3% xGF,

Chabot isn't perfect and can certainly be better, but when with a suitable partner in Zub, or DeMelo, he's always managed to put up good metrics relative to the team.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Chychrun has been terrible in his time here and simply can't defend on his off side which is where he is when with Chabot (hasn't been great on his strong side either) and JBD is a 6/7Dman in this league, maybe a 5, not really seeing what exactly the point you're trying to make here especially when his numbers are all quite good with Zub, 54.1%GF, 52.3% xGF,

Chabot isn't perfect and can certainly be better, but when with a suitable partner in Zub, or DeMelo, he's always managed to put up good metrics relative to the team.

We are a rare team in that we've had an elite OFD on the back end for like 15 years but have had like 5 years of competent defensive defenders within that period (Methot, DeMelo, Zub). It's skewed our perception imo. I really shudder to think what our team offence would look like without Chabot. Forget finishing, we would barely be able to get things started.

 

[Wondercarrot]

I don't buy the ice time argument for why Chabot is a #1/#2 defenseman.

He plays a lot but if he's not performing well in those big minutes he shouldn't be considered a top 2 defenseman.

Cody Ceci was playing 22-24 minutes a game for us for several years but that didn't make him a top pairing defenseman because he wasn't playing that role effectively.

IMO Chabot is obviously a top 4 quality defenseman but is unlikely to justify his 8M cap hit and 9.5M average salary for the next 4 years.

Since we don't have cap issues we should keep him and hope he improves his all-around game as he matures, but I don't think there would be a lot of teams lining up to pay big value for him given the lack of demand for left-handed offensive D.

You don’t need to use the icetime argument, you can use him being in the top 10 in D for goals, or top 20 in points.
You can then supplement that with icetime minute muncher.
Nobody thought Ceci was a top pair dman regardless of minutes because there was absolutely nothing other than icetime to make the argument.

Chabot is more than an “offensive dman” as well he’s also a transition machine.

 

[JungleBeat]

Chychrun has been terrible in his time here and simply can't defend on his off side which is where he is when with Chabot (hasn't been great on his strong side either) and JBD is a 6/7Dman in this league, maybe a 5, not really seeing what exactly the point you're trying to make here especially when his numbers are all quite good with Zub, 54.1%GF, 52.3% xGF,

Chabot isn't perfect and can certainly be better, but when with a suitable partner in Zub, or DeMelo, he's always managed to put up good metrics relative to the team.

Point is Chabot has sucked the past couple of seasons, doesn’t take a genius to figure that out.

Another anchor contracts for a guy who doesn’t care on the ice and is soft. Talent is there but he’s spoiled like the rest of the team.