Blue Jays Discussion: The Vladimir Guerrero Jr. injury overreaction thread

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Interesting perspective! I agree that the Yankees have an abundance of prospect arms and that is somewhat of a need for the Jays organization and think both teams could easily find a solution that benefits both. To me it's just about acquiring the best value on a 35-year old SPer that isn't a part of the future and if Frazier is the best value I can find on the trade market, then I wouldn't hesitate to make a deal with him in it.

Your point about the Yankees and developing pitchers well is something I'm curious about. The Yankees seem to know something about getting extra velocity out of their prospect arms that most other organizations don't. It seems like their entire top 30 prospect that are pitchers can reach the mid-90's and there's a bunch of cases of guys suddenly finding extra velocity upon entering the organization. A few examples are James Kapriliean who is now in Oakland after the Sonny Gray deal who was throwing 88-92 in college and now sits 93-96, Dillon Tate was throwing in the upper 80's in Texas after being drafted and is now throwing 93-95 after being acquired as part of the Carlos Beltran deal, and even Trevor Lane who in college, operated with an 89-90 mph sinker and is now throwing 92-97 mph. There's something here and whatever it is, I hope the Jays are able to figure it out and decide if it's beneficial long-term.

Yep, and they've been doing it for several years now. Likely the product both some of the most expensive coaching (both roving instructors and staff across their minor league levels) and analytics. What's interesting about them is their ability to do it with prospects, whereas the Astros have seemed to find something with mature\veteran pitchers (i.e. Morton, Cole, Peacock, etc.).

 

[hoc123]

Not when you're trading within division.

And that's a fair stance for them to take; which will lead me to take the 45-50FV prospect from Anaheim, Washington, Arizona, Milwaukee, LA. The Yankees\Red Sox pay a premium.

Why though? I would agree more if we were trading a player with multiple years of control, but Happ will only be there for 2 months.

 

[phillipmike]

Not when you're trading within division.

And that's a fair stance for them to take; which will lead me to take the 45-50FV prospect from Anaheim, Washington, Arizona, Milwaukee, LA. The Yankees\Red Sox pay a premium.

We should do what my brother does when he selling in our hockey pools. He goes to the 2nd place guy and says give me what i want (1st round pick) for my best players or else i will trade the exact package to the guy in 1st place for a 3rd round pick. Works 60% of the time every time.

Should get two rivals bidding against each other. The NL West will be the easiest to exploit considering how close they are in the standings.

 

[metafour]

Groshans with the 3 run bomb top of the 9th!! MVP MVP

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Why though? I would agree more if we were trading a player with multiple years of control, but Happ will only be there for 2 months.

More than a fair question. Its not like we're discussing a Stroman - Frazier swap, and so I understand your POV. And, if Frazier was a 60FV grade prospect, I would do a deal because it hurts my rival long-term (rental for potential cost controlled high level production), regardless of position or positional need (or lack thereof).

Frazier is not that. And his presence (or lack there of) does not deteriorate their position ,other than his potential use as a trade chip elsewhere.

To simplify things, many teams need starting pitching. Many of those same teams have 50 FV prospects. The Yankees and Red Sox would have to pay premiums to get my assets, regardless of the amount of control they may have.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

And also, of course, **** the Yankees.

 

[zeke]

groshans >>> warmoth

 

[Discoverer]

More than a fair question. Its not like we're discussing a Stroman - Frazier swap, and so I understand your POV. And, if Frazier was a 60FV grade prospect, I would do a deal because it hurts my rival long-term (rental for potential cost controlled high level production), regardless of position or positional need (or lack thereof).

Frazier is not that. And his presence (or lack there of) does not deteriorate their position ,other than his potential use as a trade chip elsewhere.

To simplify things, many teams need starting pitching. Many of those same teams have 50 FV prospects. The Yankees and Red Sox would have to pay premiums to get my assets, regardless of the amount of control they may have.

I pretty much agree, except that I would only consider the Yankee/Red Sox premium a tie-breaker.

If, say, the Yankees and Angels offer equivalent packages, I take the Angels' deal pretty easily unless the Yankees step it up. But if the Yankees' offer is even the slightest bit better, then taking the Angels' offer instead would be doing a disservice to your own team's future in order to spite an opponent.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Morgs]

I'm with Quimby. Either the Yanks/Red Sox pay more than anyone else, or you take the comparable offer from the Mariners/Angels.

f*** them.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Groshans with the 3 run bomb top of the 9th!! MVP MVP

Next Corey Seager!!

 

[Paladin2799]

I pretty much agree, except that I would only consider the Yankee/Red Sox premium a tie-breaker.

If, say, the Yankees and Angels offer equivalent packages, I take the Angels' deal pretty easily unless the Yankees step it up. But if the Yankees' offer is even the slightest bit better, then taking the Angels' offer instead would be doing a disservice to your own team's future in order to spite an opponent.

I respectfully disagree.

Strengthening a direct rival who competes in your division and plays so many games against you is a significant advantage. Also as a GM its better he clears his division/conference for job stability then bouncing out in the first round to plays you traded to a rival.

Optics are a big deal.

 

[Kurtz]

Did we gain an extra year of control on Osuna because of this...issue, or does he need to be officially suspended by the league for us to get that extra year of control?

 

[Discoverer]

I respectfully disagree.

Strengthening a direct rival who competes in your division and plays so many games against you is a significant advantage. Also as a GM its better he clears his division/conference for job stability then bouncing out in the first round to plays you traded to a rival.

Optics are a big deal.

I'm specifically referring to rental deals. It won't come back to bite the Jays because Happ is only under contract for the rest of this season and the Jays aren't competing this year anyway. I hate the Yankees and don't want to see them win (let alone see the Jays help them), but that will always be secondary to doing what's best for the Jays.

And I'm not particularly interest in optics. I'm interested in the Jays winning.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Whats the realistic and dream (obviously not a Torres ask though) ask from these teams.

Well, Seattle doesn't have much so either Sam Carlson or Evan White.

From the Yankees probably Florial or Sheffield.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Lol @ "again." The Happ signing breaks my heart every 5 days, zeke.

Just for the record, I hate Jon Harris. Not him personally (I'm sure he's a nice young man) but as a prospect, and was not a fan of the selection (mostly due to the terrible McGuire\Purcey\Jackson residue from the previous decade and a half that I haven't been able to wash off). I thought it was clearly a panic (reactionary) move, or at the very least plan B, after the player they actually wanted was taken the pick before (Soroka).

That said, an adjustment has been made, we've been provided with a tidy timeline, and the sample size has grown. Its a nice study and thing to track from an otherwise wasted 1st round pick that went from "meh" to "bleh".

Also, think about all the fun we can have arguing about whom should get the credit if he ever becomes a productive asset.

Wait, there was an adjustment? What'd he do?

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

I'm with Quimby. Either the Yanks/Red Sox pay more than anyone else, or you take the comparable offer from the Mariners/Angels.

**** them.

There is no comparable offer from the Mariners. Their system is horrendous. I take the best package period, I don't care who it's from. I won't take a lesser offer from the Mariners cause the Yankees are in our division, Happ is a free agent and probably has like 2 years left in his starting career. The Angels on the other hand have a surprisingly improving farm system.

 

[Forgotusername]

Why though? I would agree more if we were trading a player with multiple years of control, but Happ will only be there for 2 months.

It's not just the Yankees. Any trades within a division you'll have overpay.

 

[phillipmike]

Take the best offer imo no questions asked especially for an expiring contract. Believe it or not the Yankees and/or the Red Sox will win Championships again sometime in our lifetime. Who cares about helping them, you help yourself first if its the best deal and whatever happens after you let it be.

Doesn't mean I don't drive a hard bargain or try to get more especially more out of division rivals but if one offer is better than the other then I'm taking it whether it's a slightly better offer or a much better offer. BOA (Best Offer Available) all day!!!

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

I know hindsight is 20/20 but for those of us who wanted it to happen it stings a little. Imagine if we had moved Osuna and Donaldson prior to the season. I proposed Osuna for Juan Soto+ at the time since Washington needed pen help (Soto was promising but missed time with injury last year). Add in whatever we got for Donaldson. Man, imagine how sicker our farm would be.

 

[Eyedea]

Oh yeah, well I proposed Osuna for Soto + Kieboom like midseason last year

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Oh yeah, well I proposed Osuna for Soto + Kieboom like midseason last year

Really? That might have been overpay even then but worth the ask nonetheless.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Brock Boeser Laser Show]

Moore been hitting the sauce today? that's a terrible return. Why move him so quickly for scraps? is KC that poor that they have to just give away players to save money?

I'd fire that scout that thinks all three will be major leaguers.

 

[canucksfan]

Besides Groshans who else is there to keep an eye out with the GCL Blue Jays?