The Ryan Reaves Debate

[wej20]

Don't want to get into another enforcer debate, but I've been pretty disappointed with the lack of skull cracking from Reaves. I was at least promised I'd be entertained by booming hits and some sweet punches.

He's had a few nice hits but these days most other teams don't carry an enforcer. McLeod's the only enforcer he's fought, everyone else is basically guys who fight occasionally.

 

[imouttahereEdWinger]

We're now officially playing Reaves over Sprong and still watching our players get smashed illegally into the board while the NHL sits back and half heartedly goes "tsk tsk" while its players attempt to cause brain damage or paralyzation.

 

[canadianguy77]

We're now officially playing Reaves over Sprong and still watching our players get smashed illegally into the board while the NHL sits back and half heartedly goes "tsk tsk" while its players attempt to cause brain damage or paralyzation.

I don't think its that simple. They obviously want to go with a 4th line that can play along the walls and cycle down low. Also Sprong probably isn't going to be that effective getting 6 minutes a game playing with plugs. If you weant to say that someone is stealing Sprong's spot, that would be Sheary. But they're not going to sit someone who is making 3 million a season for someone on an ELC.

 

[MurphyDump]

I disagree.

First of all Sully has input in the moves that JR makes.

Second of all just having Reaves sit on the bench is helpful because of his presence.

If Sully didn't like having Reaves on the team he wouldn't be playing him every game.

They will not scratch a guy that they traded down for. This would admit failure on the part of the GM. I highly doubt Sully wants him in the lineup as evident by his icetime for great lengths. Sheahan has improved that line immensely and allowed them to log more minutes however. Prior to that, Reaves received the least amount of time for a reason.

 

[Heldig]

So Reaves did nothing to Perry after that cheapshot on Letang?

 

[Brandinho]

They will not scratch a guy that they traded down for. This would admit failure on the part of the GM. I highly doubt Sully wants him in the lineup as evident by his icetime for great lengths. Sheahan has improved that line immensely and allowed them to log more minutes however. Prior to that, Reaves received the least amount of time for a reason.

I don't believe this at all. JR is 68 years old and won back to back Cups. Do you genuinely think he cares if people think that one of his trades was a failure? Canadianguy77 has the right of it - what is Sprong going to accomplish with 6 minutes a game?

 

[Pens x]

So Reaves did nothing to Perry after that cheapshot on Letang?

He stared down the Ducks’ players as he sat on the bench.
The Reaves trade has been a big disappoitnment. Most people knew at the time of this trade was made that it was a pretty terrible decision. I’m actually surprised that he still plays in every game. I just don’t know what they see in him. Maybe management and Sully are seeing him deter cheap shots, but I certainly don’t see that.

 

[Pens x]

I don't believe this at all. JR is 68 years old and won back to back Cups. Do you genuinely think he cares if people think that one of his trades was a failure? Canadianguy77 has the right of it - what is Sprong going to accomplish with 6 minutes a game?

Ryan Reaves plays 6 minutes a night because he isn’t a good hockey player. Maybe if you played someone else in his spot then the line would actually improve and you would subsequently play the line for more minutes.

 

[Brandinho]

Ryan Reaves plays 6 minutes a night because he isn’t a good hockey player. Maybe if you played someone else in his spot then the line would actually improve and you would subsequently play the line for more minutes.

And take minutes away from whom? There are a finite number of minutes to go around. Obviously, Reaves plays 6 minutes a night because there's no reason to play him for more, but that's beside the point.

 

[Jesse]

And take minutes away from whom? There are a finite number of minutes to go around. Obviously, Reaves plays 6 minutes a night because there's no reason to play him for more, but that's beside the point.

You could also make an argument that there's no reason to play him for six. Or five. Or four. Or three...

 

[HandshakeLine]

You could also make an argument that there's no reason to play him for six. Or five. Or four. Or three...

Yeah, but the idea that Reaves is taking time away from Sprong is so dumb it makes everyone dumber for having read it. If Sprong is on the 4th line, Sully should be fired for negligence-- the kid's either top 9 here or 1st line in WB/S. Reaves is a non-issue there, whatever your feelings on him are.

 

[FreeBobbyFarnham]

With Oleksiak on the team there's simply no reason to have Reaves in the lineup. He can't play on the PP, can't PK, doesn't produce 5on5 and can't be counted on in a defensive role. All he's good for is hitting and fighting.

I wouldn't mind him if we didn't have better players available, but we do. When Rust comes back who sits? Sprong? Simon? Both?

Reaves can't protect our players. Letang and Schultz got abused in back to back games and Reaves was stuck on the bench. If he can't give a good 10 minutes of Hockey then there is no room for him.

And take minutes away from whom? There are a finite number of minutes to go around. Obviously, Reaves plays 6 minutes a night because there's no reason to play him for more, but that's beside the point.

From guys playing 20+ minutes a night.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yeah, but the idea that Reaves is taking time away from Sprong is so dumb it makes everyone dumber for having read it. If Sprong is on the 4th line, Sully should be fired for negligence-- the kid's either top 9 here or 1st line in WB/S. Reaves is a non-issue there, whatever your feelings on him are.

Not really even if I agree it's not strictly Reaves vs Sprong. Sully wants to roll 4 lines. Playing a guy like Reaves doesn't allow you to roll 4 lines in a tie or deficit. With the lines as constructed, you could easily do something like:

Simon-Crosby-Sheary
Hagelin-Malkin-Hornqvist
Jake-Sheahan-Kessel
Kuhnhackl-Dea-Sprong

Then sub Sprong up for Sheary, Horqvist, or Kessel. Sully mixes and matches anyway.

 

[NMK11]

It's so weird. Early in the season when we sucked, you could almost believe we were getting fewer cheap shots and Reaves might be having an effect. But it's so odd now that we're playing better and attempting to take over games the number of cheap shots had gone up recently, even with a deterrent playing.


Well shucks, it's almost like the amount people take liberties depends on how good you are irregardless of an enforcer. No one could have predicted that.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

What I want Reaves for (and what every Pens fan who was disgusted by the repeated, methodical attempts to injure Crosby by Staal, Dubinsky, Niskanen etc.) is exactly what happened to Dubinsky a couple weeks ago. He was being his usual piece of **** self, so Kassian dropped him with a shot that broke his orbital bone. Voila, problem solved.

It was glorious. It's just unfortunate that Reaves wasn't the one to do it.

Contrary to what some detractors apparently believe, that doesn't mean that our superstars won't ever take a cheap shot, or get in fights of their own accord. This literally happens to every NHLer. It just means that they won't be subjected to the repeated, methodical attempts to injure that nearly ended Sid's playoff run in the 2nd round last year.

Repeated for relevance because it seems the detractors still don't get it, and I don't feel like typing out exactly the same thing every post-game when people line up to say "A-ha!" after Reaves isn't plot armour that will stop anything and everything from happening to our heroes.

 

[NMK11]

Repeated for relevance because it seems the detractors still don't get it, and I don't feel like typing out exactly the same thing every post-game when people line up to say "A-ha!" after Reaves isn't plot armour that will stop anything and everything from happening to our heroes.

So when has Reaves done this? Any examples so far this season? Last few games have been as chippy and cheap as ever, perfect opportunities for Reaves to come drop someone. So...has he?

We're paying him a decent amount and he's consuming a roster spot, so I'd expect you to be able to show me at least a handful of times where he's done what you say is his job for it all to be worth it. Because now it feels like there's a shifting of the goalposts. I was told in the off-season that he'd prevent things, nuclear deterrent and all. But now I'm reading he won't, he's just here to respond. So once again for anyone reading, when has he put an end to players being punks? Would appreciate a few examples.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So when has Reaves done this? Any examples so far this season? Last few games have been as chippy and cheap as ever, perfect opportunities for Reaves to come drop someone. So...has he?

We're paying him a decent amount and he's consuming a roster spot, so I'd expect you to be able to show me at least a handful of times where he's done what you say is his job for it all to be worth it. Because now it feels like there's a shifting of the goalposts. I was told in the off-season that he'd prevent things, nuclear deterrent and all. But now I'm reading he won't, he's just here to respond. So once again for anyone reading, when has he put an end to players being punks? Would appreciate a few examples.

How does one find an example for something that's not supposed to happen if things go right?

Like I said, Reaves was brought in to stop the repeated, targeted, malicious attacks on our stars by the likes of Dubinsky, Staal, and most recently Niskanen - which was clearly the catalyst for getting Reaves in the first place.

None of that has happened this year, and I don't imagine it will while Reaves is around. If it does, then people can say he isn't doing what he was brought in to do. Until then, he's serving his purpose.

 

[NMK11]

What I want Reaves for (and what every Pens fan who was disgusted by the repeated, methodical attempts to injure Crosby by Staal, Dubinsky, Niskanen etc.) is exactly what happened to Dubinsky a couple weeks ago. He was being his usual piece of **** self, so Kassian dropped him with a shot that broke his orbital bone. Voila, problem solved.

It was glorious. It's just unfortunate that Reaves wasn't the one to do it.

Contrary to what some detractors apparently believe, that doesn't mean that our superstars won't ever take a cheap shot, or get in fights of their own accord. This literally happens to every NHLer. It just means that they won't be subjected to the repeated, methodical attempts to injure that nearly ended Sid's playoff run in the 2nd round last year.

So here you want Reaves to retaliate to cheap shots.

Repeated for relevance because it seems the detractors still don't get it, and I don't feel like typing out exactly the same thing every post-game when people line up to say "A-ha!" after Reaves isn't plot armour that will stop anything and everything from happening to our heroes.

Here you reaffirmed that you want reaves to respond more than stop everything.

How does one find an example for something that's not supposed to happen if things go right?

Like I said, Reaves was brought in to stop the repeated, targeted, malicious attacks on our stars by the likes of Dubinsky, Staal, and most recently Niskanen - which was clearly the catalyst for getting Reaves in the first place.

None of that has happened this year, and I don't imagine it will while Reaves is around. If it does, then people can say he isn't doing what he was brought in to do. Until then, he's serving his purpose.

Now here youre saying he is here to stop repeat stuff.


So which is it? Is he here to stop repeated stuff? Because that seems to be happening more and more despite Reaves playing this past month coincidentally as we have started playing better and beating teams. Or is it you want him to respond to cheap shots on our players. It was more than Brown running around on our guys this past week in CA, and Reaves didnt step in at all to, how did you put it, drop him with a shot that broke an orbital bone.

I was told hes here to stop repeat stuff, and frankly every game that we are competitive in against a physical team the cheap shots seem to be just as common as the past several years. Now you want him to drop people who take cheap shots at our stars. Hes fought 6 times, have we been targetd by repeated cheap shots only 6 times this year? Really? None of the other forty odd games weve had people going after our stars?

Look, Reaves seems like a standup dude and a quality locker room guy, and Ill absolutely admit hes better at hockey than Laraque, Godard, Sestito, or any number of other heavy weights whom, as Im sure youve noticed, are essentially no longer in the league. But at his cap hit and the fact that hes playing every single game over players more talented at hockey means there better be some more clear evidence he is helping other than "We havent been the target of repeated attacks on our stars" which is at best an opinion about a team that sleepwalked through half the season and threatened no one.

And my last question, do you want him to play in the playoffs? Because if you dont like how our stars have been treated during the regular season the past few years, you may not want to watch the playoffs.

 

[Tom Hanks]

How does one find an example for something that's not supposed to happen if things go right?

Like I said, Reaves was brought in to stop the repeated, targeted, malicious attacks on our stars by the likes of Dubinsky, Staal, and most recently Niskanen - which was clearly the catalyst for getting Reaves in the first place.

None of that has happened this year, and I don't imagine it will while Reaves is around. If it does, then people can say he isn't doing what he was brought in to do. Until then, he's serving his purpose.

It’ll happen in the playoffs and it never happened that much during the regular season.

Why would anyone attack Crosby in the first half of this season. He wasn’t playing great hockey.

Reaves himself has said he’s not a deterrent. It’s more of a revenge play. Hurt one of our guys and we’ll hurt yours which he really hasn’t done.

If he’s playing 5 minutes a game that’s what will hurt us more. Means our better players are on the ice more.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So here you want Reaves to retaliate to cheap shots.


Here you reaffirmed that you want reaves to respond more than stop everything.


Now here youre saying he is here to stop repeat stuff.


So which is it? Is he here to stop repeated stuff? Because that seems to be happening more and more despite Reaves playing this past month coincidentally as we have started playing better and beating teams. Or is it you want him to respond to cheap shots on our players. It was more than Brown running around on our guys this past week in CA, and Reaves didnt step in at all to, how did you put it, drop him with a shot that broke an orbital bone.

I was told hes here to stop repeat stuff, and frankly every game that we are competitive in against a physical team the cheap shots seem to be just as common as the past several years. Now you want him to drop people who take cheap shots at our stars. Hes fought 6 times, have we been targetd by repeated cheap shots only 6 times this year? Really? None of the other forty odd games weve had people going after our stars?

Look, Reaves seems like a standup dude and a quality locker room guy, and Ill absolutely admit hes better at hockey than Laraque, Godard, Sestito, or any number of other heavy weights whom, as Im sure youve noticed, are essentially no longer in the league. But at his cap hit and the fact that hes playing every single game over players more talented at hockey means there better be some more clear evidence he is helping other than "We havent been the target of repeated attacks on our stars" which is at best an opinion about a team that sleepwalked through half the season and threatened no one.

And my last question, do you want him to play in the playoffs? Because if you dont like how our stars have been treated during the regular season the past few years, you may not want to watch the playoffs.

There is nothing contradictory in my posts. Cheap shots will happen. It's a fast, physical game and players will occasionally go over the line. But for the umpteenth time, that isn't what Reaves was brought in for.

As I've repeated until I'm blue in the face, Reaves was brought in to stop the repeated, methodical cheap shots that the likes of Staal, Dubinsky, and recently Niskanen have used to try to wear down our superstars. What happened to Schultz and Letang recently fall squarely into the category of "not that".

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It’ll happen in the playoffs and it never happened that much during the regular season.

Why would anyone attack Crosby in the first half of this season. He wasn’t playing great hockey.

Reaves himself has said he’s not a deterrent. It’s more of a revenge play. Hurt one of our guys and we’ll hurt yours which he really hasn’t done.

If he’s playing 5 minutes a game that’s what will hurt us more. Means our better players are on the ice more.

Because he's Crosby. There has never been another reason needed.

And again, Reaves isn't there for one-off cheap shots. If anyone thinks that what's happened this year is comparable to the nonsense the perps I listed have been getting away with for years, they either haven't been paying attention or are being deliberately obtuse.

People need to remember that Niskanen's antics were the catalyst for bringing in Reaves. That's the sort of garbage we wanted to eliminate, and have so far this season.

 

[NMK11]

There is nothing contradictory in my posts. Cheap shots will happen. It's a fast, physical game and players will occasionally go over the line. But for the umpteenth time, that isn't what Reaves was brought in for.

As I've repeated until I'm blue in the face, Reaves was brought in to stop the repeated, methodical cheap shots that the likes of Staal, Dubinsky, and recently Niskanen have used to try to wear down our superstars. What happened to Schultz and Letang recently fall squarely into the category of "not that".

I guess then were at a stalemate. You think cheap shots are down, I dont, and if they are its more likely to the fact that weve sucked so far this year. Lets see what happens in the playoffs. If we make it.

I also dont see how you can use Niskanen. He was no worse than anyone until the one really bad hit in the playoffs. If anything he was a bit on the soft side. But remember, Reaves isnt here to prevent the one off cheap shots that actually injure players.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Because he's Crosby. There has never been another reason needed.

And again, Reaves isn't there for one-off cheap shots. If anyone thinks that what's happened this year is comparable to the nonsense the perps I listed have been getting away with for years, they either haven't been paying attention or are being deliberately obtuse.

People need to remember that Niskanen's antics were the catalyst for bringing in Reaves. That's the sort of garbage we wanted to eliminate, and have so far this season.

It happened in the playoffs and if Crosby stands in your way of competing for a cup Reaves isn’t going to deter that.

 

[NMK11]

There is nothing contradictory in my posts. Cheap shots will happen. It's a fast, physical game and players will occasionally go over the line. But for the umpteenth time, that isn't what Reaves was brought in for.

As I've repeated until I'm blue in the face, Reaves was brought in to stop the repeated, methodical cheap shots that the likes of Staal, Dubinsky, and recently Niskanen have used to try to wear down our superstars. What happened to Schultz and Letang recently fall squarely into the category of "not that".

Yep, nothing contradictory here. Move along.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

It happened in the playoffs and if Crosby stands in your way of competing for a cup Reaves isn’t going to deter that.

Yeah, the Caps were desperate. The final year of being all in, favourites again, the history of failure, an ageing Ovechkin, losing to the Pens without Letang and Murray, looking like they could be swept and the Pens had gone through them for 2 cups before. Reaves isn’t stopping that, shit like that needs to be the league not making it worth it. Not having stupid retaliatory shit is what they had to do and they won the cup that year.

Not talking specifically about WC but the list of things Reaves will do seems to have shrunk.

He’ll produce more here and PK, he’ll deter and avenge.
He’ll produce more, deter and avenge.
He’ll deter and avenge.
He’ll deter repeat offenders.

Great. Talk to me about that in a month.