The Offseason Thread

Winger98

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Feb 27, 2002
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I have been on the trade Quincey train since well the season ended. I don't see the fit under Blashill. I would like to get the pick he could bring back and more importantly the roster space he blocks for Marchenko/Ouellet/Jensen. It would be even better if we could package him up with other things and land something nice. But I want him moved. He or Kindl or both can go any day and I am fine with it. But the salary issue really isn't there right now, though the lack of salary is enough of an issue it also keeps Dan Cleary out in the cold which quite frankly I like.

Yeah, I know. We've been on the same page of this for quite awhile. I just don't get the reluctance to go with the kids in place of Quincey/Kindl. The Dan Cleary angle is scary in that it's not really a joke at all.

If we moved Quincey and Kindl, we could roll something like:

Kronwall-Smith
Dekeyser-Green
Ericsson-Marchenko
Jensen

to start the year. We still have Lashoff in GR as a call-up, as well as XO. As the #7, Jensen would probably still get ~40 games in, which is fine for a rookie, and we have a real idea of what at least those two can do heading into the following off-season.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Nov 8, 2011
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Yeah, I know. We've been on the same page of this for quite awhile. I just don't get the reluctance to go with the kids in place of Quincey/Kindl. The Dan Cleary angle is scary in that it's not really a joke at all.

If we moved Quincey and Kindl, we could roll something like:

Kronwall-Smith
Dekeyser-Green
Ericsson-Marchenko
Jensen

to start the year. We still have Lashoff in GR as a call-up, as well as XO. As the #7, Jensen would probably still get ~40 games in, which is fine for a rookie, and we have a real idea of what at least those two can do heading into the following off-season.

Love it, sign me up as that is actually the exact thing I would do if I was in charge. Though I think moving Kindl is a tall order and he might wind up the #7. Blashill likes him so he would likely get his last chance. Would prefer this but I want Quincey gone to run these exact pairings. Recoup the draft pick or whatever you want to get out of Quincey and move forward.

It is telling Blashill never talks about Quincey, he doesn't fit with his plans for the team. I like that Q had a bounce back season too, so we are selling him at decent value.
 

SpookyTsuki

Registered User
Dec 3, 2014
15,916
671
Whens the first pre-season games? Will they be televised? Man I am tired of waiting the off-season.

Australian Rules Football only plays games once a week on the weekend. Not sure what to do with the rest of my time :D

September
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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Yeah, I know. We've been on the same page of this for quite awhile. I just don't get the reluctance to go with the kids in place of Quincey/Kindl. The Dan Cleary angle is scary in that it's not really a joke at all.

If we moved Quincey and Kindl, we could roll something like:

Kronwall-Smith
Dekeyser-Green
Ericsson-Marchenko
Jensen

to start the year. We still have Lashoff in GR as a call-up, as well as XO. As the #7, Jensen would probably still get ~40 games in, which is fine for a rookie, and we have a real idea of what at least those two can do heading into the following off-season.
Easy. None of the kids are better than Quincey, so trading Q and promoting Marchenko/XO/Jensen is downgrading our defense (now that it's finally starting to look respectable). And Kindl is pretty much untradeable.

Betting on Smith to look as a top-pairing d-man is really rolling the dice. We don't even know if Green can handle a 2nd pairing. Quincey is good insurance if we have to shelter Green on the 3rd pairing.
 

Mister Ed

Registered User
Dec 21, 2008
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Easy. None of the kids are better than Quincey, so trading Q and promoting Marchenko/XO/Jensen is downgrading our defense (now that it's finally starting to look respectable). And Kindl is pretty much untradeable.

Betting on Smith to look as a top-pairing d-man is really rolling the dice. We don't even know if Green can handle a 2nd pairing. Quincey is good insurance if we have to shelter Green on the 3rd pairing.

You're talking about 2-time Norris Trophy nominated defenseman, Mike Green. He'll be fine.
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
22,882
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Cleveland
Easy. None of the kids are better than Quincey, so trading Q and promoting Marchenko/XO/Jensen is downgrading our defense (now that it's finally starting to look respectable). And Kindl is pretty much untradeable.

Betting on Smith to look as a top-pairing d-man is really rolling the dice. We don't even know if Green can handle a 2nd pairing. Quincey is good insurance if we have to shelter Green on the 3rd pairing.

Yeah, and I still think you overvalue Quincey. Agree about Kindl likely being untradeable, but we're going to have to find a way to move him at some point, either through trade or just throwing him on waivers and hoping someone takes a flier.

And it's a small bet on Smith, considering Ericsson is sitting on the third pair. If Smith can't handle it, flip'em, and you have a remarkably similar D to what we're going to be starting the year with the lone change to the starting 6 being Marchenko in for Quincey.

Love it, sign me up as that is actually the exact thing I would do if I was in charge. Though I think moving Kindl is a tall order and he might wind up the #7. Blashill likes him so he would likely get his last chance. Would prefer this but I want Quincey gone to run these exact pairings. Recoup the draft pick or whatever you want to get out of Quincey and move forward.

It is telling Blashill never talks about Quincey, he doesn't fit with his plans for the team. I like that Q had a bounce back season too, so we are selling him at decent value.

I don't think Quincey even had that much of a bounce back year. He wasn't quite the tire fire that he was in previous years, but he still couldn't move the puck to save his life, he still skated himself into trouble, and he still threw forced, awkward passes that his partner had to scramble to do something with. And it happened all of the time. The biggest difference I saw was that Dekeyser could cover for it while Smith never could.

At this point, I'd rather see Kindl playing than Quincey, because at least there's something to find and evolve in Kindl's game. I think Quincey's had to strip his game to the bones out and he's never going to be able to add meat to it again.
 

HockeyinHD

Semi-retired former active poster.
Jun 18, 2006
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The dman who plays 15ish minutes of decent defense while having a bunch of PK time has been a position/role lambasted and undervalued by Detroit fans for years.

Quincey (and Ericsson actually) the past few years.
Stuart before that.
Lilja before that.
Chelios' last few before that.
Fischer's first couple years before that.
Macoun before that.

Those roles always have terrible counting stats and the only time you ever really notice those players is when they're getting beat. They are always, always, always the spots people want cleared out so some prospect or other gets that IT. Some guy who has 'upside'.

Those spots are so vital to be filled and filled correctly that entire teams have folded up like cheap tents when they weren't.

What Quincey and E have done, much like what those guys before them did, has been/is being drastically undervalued by fans. Back in the early '00's Detroit just ran Lidstrom or Chelios out there for 5+ a night on the PK, and then took only 3 penalties a game. Absent that security blanket it is unbelievably important to have people who can relieve the constant, draining pressure of a PK from guys like Kronwall and Dekeyser.

Detroit's been bad enough offensively from the blue line. How much worse do you think it would get if Kronwall and Dekeyser had to get their butts kicked 4+ a night on the PK? How much ES time would that cost them in exchange? How many more injuries?

You have to have those guys, and they have to be effective in that role. That is absolutely not something you can trust the vast majority of prospects to handle.
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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You're talking about 2-time Norris Trophy nominated defenseman, Mike Green. He'll be fine.
That's like 6-7 years ago though and only based on his offense. If we want to use Dekeyser as a shutdown d-man. Green is not the guy to put next to him.
Yeah, and I still think you overvalue Quincey. Agree about Kindl likely being untradeable, but we're going to have to find a way to move him at some point, either through trade or just throwing him on waivers and hoping someone takes a flier.

And it's a small bet on Smith, considering Ericsson is sitting on the third pair. If Smith can't handle it, flip'em, and you have a remarkably similar D to what we're going to be starting the year with the lone change to the starting 6 being Marchenko in for Quincey.



I don't think Quincey even had that much of a bounce back year. He wasn't quite the tire fire that he was in previous years, but he still couldn't move the puck to save his life, he still skated himself into trouble, and he still threw forced, awkward passes that his partner had to scramble to do something with. And it happened all of the time. The biggest difference I saw was that Dekeyser could cover for it while Smith never could.

At this point, I'd rather see Kindl playing than Quincey, because at least there's something to find and evolve in Kindl's game. I think Quincey's had to strip his game to the bones out and he's never going to be able to add meat to it again.
I don't know what you expect out of Quincey. I thought he played very solid as a stay-at-home, defensive D-man last year. No, he's not a great puck-mover or someone who will do anything offensively. But I can barely remember him costing us a goal against the entire season. All I remember is safe, under-the-radar defensive play, with the occasional GREAT defensive play or surprising physicality thrown in.
I'm not an advanced stats guru, but Q also had the best individual Fenwick and Corsi among our d-men, the lowest GA/60 among our regular d-men, the best GF% of our regular d-men... he must have been something right. Not to mention he was 3rd in points among our d-men and 2nd in +/- at +10. All these stats seem to confirm what my thoughts were after watching all Red Wings games last season; Quincey was solid.
 

DanZ

Registered User
Mar 6, 2008
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That's like 6-7 years ago though and only based on his offense. If we want to use Dekeyser as a shutdown d-man. Green is not the guy to put next to him.

Not so sure about that. I honestly think they might do well together. Green is great at moving the puck and DeKeyser is great at retrieving it. Puck possession is the best defense.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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I don't know what you expect out of Quincey. I thought he played very solid as a stay-at-home, defensive D-man last year. No, he's not a great puck-mover or someone who will do anything offensively. But I can barely remember him costing us a goal against the entire season. All I remember is safe, under-the-radar defensive play, with the occasional GREAT defensive play or surprising physicality thrown in.
I'm not an advanced stats guru, but Q also had the best individual Fenwick and Corsi among our d-men, the lowest GA/60 among our regular d-men, the best GF% of our regular d-men... he must have been something right. Not to mention he was 3rd in points among our d-men and 2nd in +/- at +10. All these stats seem to confirm what my thoughts were after watching all Red Wings games last season; Quincey was solid.

Now let's talk about pairings and chemistry for a second.

Quincey was solid last year. Quincey, however, has ONLY ever looked good playing alongside Dekeyser. Deksyer, as we have been told, is going to most likely be playing with Green this year.

What happens when you take Dekeyser away from Quincey? I don't think any of us are going to like the answer to that question. On top of that, he is slated to start the year with Smith, which we already know has been a disaster every time it has been deployed.

So we aren't even replacing the solid 2nd pairing Quincey from last year with a kid, we would be replacing a 3rd pairing guy who needs to play well with Smith. Honestly, Ouellet has always looked good alongside Smith and I think would be a better option.
 
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Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
22,882
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Cleveland
I don't know what you expect out of Quincey. I thought he played very solid as a stay-at-home, defensive D-man last year. No, he's not a great puck-mover or someone who will do anything offensively. But I can barely remember him costing us a goal against the entire season. All I remember is safe, under-the-radar defensive play, with the occasional GREAT defensive play or surprising physicality thrown in.
I'm not an advanced stats guru, but Q also had the best individual Fenwick and Corsi among our d-men, the lowest GA/60 among our regular d-men, the best GF% of our regular d-men... he must have been something right. Not to mention he was 3rd in points among our d-men and 2nd in +/- at +10. All these stats seem to confirm what my thoughts were after watching all Red Wings games last season; Quincey was solid.

Honestly, part of it is that Quincey (imo) is played out of position and with too many minutes. His being third on the team D in points is a symptom of what's been wrong more than what he does right, because we haven't been getting nearly enough production, or even just good puck movement, from our D. however, as Frk It points out, the only that Quincey has looked good with has been Dekeyser, so...I'm not sure what we can really do with the guy.

I want our second pairing to be more than something where we're happy if they don't hurt us. I don't think that happens with Quincey on that pairing, and with the makeup of our blueline and the kids we have knocking on the door, I don't really like him on the third pairing. I also don't see Quincey as a long term answer for us, so moving him and getting a better look at a kid has appeal for that, too.

The dman who plays 15ish minutes of decent defense while having a bunch of PK time has been a position/role lambasted and undervalued by Detroit fans for years.

Quincey (and Ericsson actually) the past few years.
Stuart before that.
Lilja before that.
Chelios' last few before that.
Fischer's first couple years before that.
Macoun before that.

Those roles always have terrible counting stats and the only time you ever really notice those players is when they're getting beat. They are always, always, always the spots people want cleared out so some prospect or other gets that IT. Some guy who has 'upside'.

Those spots are so vital to be filled and filled correctly that entire teams have folded up like cheap tents when they weren't.

What Quincey and E have done, much like what those guys before them did, has been/is being drastically undervalued by fans. Back in the early '00's Detroit just ran Lidstrom or Chelios out there for 5+ a night on the PK, and then took only 3 penalties a game. Absent that security blanket it is unbelievably important to have people who can relieve the constant, draining pressure of a PK from guys like Kronwall and Dekeyser.

Detroit's been bad enough offensively from the blue line. How much worse do you think it would get if Kronwall and Dekeyser had to get their butts kicked 4+ a night on the PK? How much ES time would that cost them in exchange? How many more injuries?

You have to have those guys, and they have to be effective in that role. That is absolutely not something you can trust the vast majority of prospects to handle.

Except Quincey doesn't eat PK minutes. Who were our top2 PK guys last year? Kronwall and Dekeyser. Ericsson was third. So, we dump Quincey and replace our #4 PK D with Marchenko/Smith/whoever. And our PK finished average, again, so changing our PK isn't exactly a high risk venture.

Stuart was loved here until his play noticeably slipped towards the end of his tenure.
Chelios was a 12 minute a night guy his last year here and didn't eat any minutes of note.
Macoun and Lilja were 16 minute guys with their PK included.
Fischer was loved because he was huge, young, and had gobs of upside.
Quincey (and Ericsson) get ragged on now because they should be 16-18 minute a night, second pairing PK guys, but are played out of position.

Also, the league seems to have been trending to less special teams play for the past three or four seasons. Unless they have another "crackdown" on something, we're not going to have to worry about anyone being out there for 4+ minutes. Kronwall, Dekeyser, and Ericsson would continue to be put out there for around three minutes a night and a couple of other guys will mop up the rest.

Quincey isn't undervalued because he does a job people don't appreciate, Quincey is bagged on because he plays too many minutes in a job he hasn't been well suited for.
 

Mister Ed

Registered User
Dec 21, 2008
5,260
974
That's like 6-7 years ago though and only based on his offense. If we want to use Dekeyser as a shutdown d-man. Green is not the guy to put next to him.

He was +15 last year, and was second in points for the Caps D last year. His defense is good enough and if not, the fact that he is paired with a shutdown D - like Dekeyser - should make him a great #3 offensive D.
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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Not so sure about that. I honestly think they might do well together. Green is great at moving the puck and DeKeyser is great at retrieving it. Puck possession is the best defense.
I think they could be good together but I also don't want Green on the ice against the other teams top lines very often. Green isn't Erik Karlsson, he isn't going to create the type of puck possession that means we're never on the defense. This is going to be the question with Green, how much can we play him even-strength?
Now let's talk about pairings and chemistry for a second.

Quincey was solid last year. Quincey, however, has ONLY ever looked good playing alongside Dekeyser. Deksyer, as we have been told, is going to most likely be playing with Green this year.

What happens when you take Dekeyser away from Quincey? I don't think any of us are going to like the answer to that question. On top of that, he is slated to start the year with Smith, which we already know has been a disaster every time it has been deployed.

So we aren't even replacing the solid 2nd pairing Quincey from last year with a kid, we would be replacing a 3rd pairing guy who needs to play well with Smith. Honestly, Ouellet has always looked good alongside Smith and I think would be a better option.
Quincey will at least get reduced minutes and easier matchups if he plays a 3rd pairing, so I think he can be fine. Compared to what we usually have on our 3rd pairing it's a massive upgrade. As for Smith, it's up to him to start establishing himself as a legit NHL d-man. If he can't look good in a #6 role with a solid d-man like Quincey next to him, what does that say about him? If he needs a rookie d-man like Ouellet to carry him, I think Smith should be the one to go, not Quincey.

We'll see how the d-pairs look when the season starts. Nothing's really set in stone. There's also injuries to consider. Quincey as a #5 is a bit of an insurance if any of the top 4 guys get injured.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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I think they could be good together but I also don't want Green on the ice against the other teams top lines very often. Green isn't Erik Karlsson, he isn't going to create the type of puck possession that means we're never on the defense. This is going to be the question with Green, how much can we play him even-strength?

Quincey will at least get reduced minutes and easier matchups if he plays a 3rd pairing, so I think he can be fine. Compared to what we usually have on our 3rd pairing it's a massive upgrade. As for Smith, it's up to him to start establishing himself as a legit NHL d-man. If he can't look good in a #6 role with a solid d-man like Quincey next to him, what does that say about him? If he needs a rookie d-man like Ouellet to carry him, I think Smith should be the one to go, not Quincey.

We'll see how the d-pairs look when the season starts. Nothing's really set in stone. There's also injuries to consider. Quincey as a #5 is a bit of an insurance if any of the top 4 guys get injured.

You would rather have a 4.5 million 30 year old bottom pairing defenseman over Brendan Smith, who is 26 and costs literally half as much?

Okay, well I think that would be unwise.

Quincey needs the best or 2nd best defender to look decent, while Smith can look good next to a rookie. I'd say that's actually more of an endorsement for Smith, instead of an indictment.

Regardless though, Quincey and Smith can't read each other or anticipate each other AT ALL. It doesn't matter how easy of a match-up you give them IMO, they are going to be a **** show in their end.
 
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Pavels Dog

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You would rather have a 4.5 million 30 year old bottom pairing defenseman over Brendan Smith, who is 26 and costs literally half as much?

Okay, well I think that would be a dumb move.

Quincey needs the best or 2nd best defender to look decent, while Smith can look good next to a rookie. I'd say that's actually more of an endorsement for Smith, instead of an indictment.

Regardless though, Quincey and Smith can't read each other or anticipate each other AT ALL. It doesn't matter how easy of a match-up you give them IMO, they are going to be a **** show in their end.
Smith's best hockey has, imo, been next to Kronwall. My memory may be hazy but I don't remember anything special from him next to Ouellet. The excuses never seem to end when it comes to Smith though. At 26, on a 3rd pairing, I don't care if he plays next to Brett Lebda; he should still be able to play well if he has anything in him except being a career #6-7.

Quincey may be overpaid this year if we use him as a #5, but it's just 1 year and we can afford it. Why should we trade a guy who has looked good as a #4, because our #6 can't play well next to him? I'm saying we have a lot more option for the #6 spot (Marchenko, Ouellet, Kindl, Jensen) than we have for the #4-5 spots. For our team this year, I want Quincey. He is better than Smith, Kindl, Ouellet, Marchenko and Jensen. People want to get rid of Quincey because he is blocking 'the kids', but I want those kids to give us a reason to get rid of Quincey. So far, they haven't done it.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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Smith's best hockey has, imo, been next to Kronwall. My memory may be hazy but I don't remember anything special from him next to Ouellet. The excuses never seem to end when it comes to Smith though. At 26, on a 3rd pairing, I don't care if he plays next to Brett Lebda; he should still be able to play well if he has anything in him except being a career #6-7.

Quincey may be overpaid this year if we use him as a #5, but it's just 1 year and we can afford it. Why should we trade a guy who has looked good as a #4, because our #6 can't play well next to him? I'm saying we have a lot more option for the #6 spot (Marchenko, Ouellet, Kindl, Jensen) than we have for the #4-5 spots. For our team this year, I want Quincey. He is better than Smith, Kindl, Ouellet, Marchenko and Jensen. People want to get rid of Quincey because he is blocking 'the kids', but I want those kids to give us a reason to get rid of Quincey. So far, they haven't done it.

I do agree to this to an extent. That group of prospects is a bit underwhelming to me, I was hoping one would have "stole the show" more than they have been able to so far.

Honestly though, wanting Quincey or a prospect completely matters to me how we set up our defense.

I would be ok with Quincey over a prospect if our pairings were:

Kronwall-Smith
Dekeyser-Green
Quincey-Ericsson

But I do NOT want Quincey if we are going to go with

Kronwall-Ericsson
Dekeyser-Green
Quincey-Smith

And I understand what you are saying about Smith, but I really think he can benefit big time from a coaching change. So in a scenario where I have to pick one, I like the upside of Smith more.
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
22,882
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Cleveland
I would be ok with Quincey over a prospect if our pairings were:

Kronwall-Smith
Dekeyser-Green
Quincey-Ericsson

I'd still waive Kindl at that point and let one of the prospects be the #7. Yeah, he wouldn't play every day, but half that blueline could play themselves out of the lineup any day, and injuries always hit. If we keep Jensen, for instance, in the #7 spot, he'd probably get ~40 games in, and practice every day with the pros. I don't think playing in GR would be any more beneficial to him than that would.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,335
14,839
I'd still waive Kindl at that point and let one of the prospects be the #7. Yeah, he wouldn't play every day, but half that blueline could play themselves out of the lineup any day, and injuries always hit. If we keep Jensen, for instance, in the #7 spot, he'd probably get ~40 games in, and practice every day with the pros. I don't think playing in GR would be any more beneficial to him than that would.

Jensen is a good fit for a #7 defenseman IMO.
 

Number1RedWingsFan52

Registered User
Mar 17, 2013
40,243
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Winter Haven Florida
I'd still waive Kindl at that point and let one of the prospects be the #7. Yeah, he wouldn't play every day, but half that blueline could play themselves out of the lineup any day, and injuries always hit. If we keep Jensen, for instance, in the #7 spot, he'd probably get ~40 games in, and practice every day with the pros. I don't think playing in GR would be any more beneficial to him than that would.

Agree whole heartily waive Kindl, And bring up Jensen as the 7th Dman. Would rather have Jensen over Kindl any day as the 7th Dman.
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
13,342
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GPP Michigan
Under what circumstance would Cleary be next in line to be called up to play for the Wings? He would easily be the least qualified forward down in GR, and would be wasting a roster spot in GR too.
 

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