The Long Fix Rebuild

[jkutswings]

He was a young defenseman who was great as a rookie, then he got injured and it took a long time for him to get back to his previous level, but he eventually did, and was rock solid with room to grow when he went down in his last season. He was great before he went down.

Agree to disagree, I guess. Even at his best, I saw Fischer as a great 2A, or a poor man's 1B, but never a guy who even had the probability of becoming a stud to anchor tht entire defense.

 

[Bench]

the worst thing about the internet is that it gives you the ability to read other peoples' thoughts. take a nice walk outside, and youll feel better

What I always used to tell people is that you have to start the discussions you want to have. Tired of negativity around the team? Well, that's understandable, so start a thread on the topic you think is worth discussing. But in the dog days of summer after the team looked really bad and management is still keeping status quo, there's going to be some harsh criticism. That's true of every single fan base in the entire league, particularly those with expectations.

You know what losing teams don't have this kind of negative tone? The ones that have given up on being good in the immediate and embrace the suck as part of their board culture. It become a running joke about the franchise being lame and that humor helps create a community of masochists. There's always that glimmer of optimism, but ultimately it's resignation that next year isn't the year, but hey, things can change in sports so stick with it and maybe in a few years there will be a better product.

The Red Wings are unique. They are a team that continues to struggle to find an identity, neither close to contender or accepting a rebuild. So you have a fan base that's unable to "move on" as it were. The team isn't dead, but it's also not alive. We're left in this limbo. If Holland had a conference tomorrow that said they were unloading a few contracts and rebuilding 100%, the tone of this forum would improve dramatically. Because instead of the narrative being about when this team will finally do something to contend again, the narrative would shift to how the team is making decisions for the future and we'd have something to look forward to.

So in the meantime, what is someone fed up to do? Well me, I enjoy complaining with my friends here about how my favorite team kinda sucks. I get some laughs and enjoy the self-depreciation a bit. I'm not too proud about sports to admit when my team is a pile of garbage stew. It's nothing personal.

But if you're not that type of person, you need to generate the good discussions. Do you want to talk about Larkin's skating? Maybe look at what made Howard's truncated season a success compared to years past? Or you could help kickstart an analysis on Mantha's wrist shot. There's good hockey topics to talk about that don't include dogging Holland. Be the change you want to see, eh?

 

[Reddwit]

Agree to disagree, I guess. Even at his best, I saw Fischer as a great 2A, or a poor man's 1B, but never a guy who even had the probability of becoming a stud to anchor tht entire defense.

To anchor the entire defense? Jesus. I don't think anyone thought he was going to do that, but he could've been a legitimate #2, and that is surely a home run for any scout.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Yep... I'm out.

A completely reasonable article written by Custance and the first response is? Oh, Jesus Christ, Kenny wants us to make the playoffs... how ****ing terrible.

Have fun with your Wings forum. I'm done with circling the drain on this ****. I used to enjoy posting here. Now, it's become unbearable. One ****ing non-playoff year and leaving a goalie with a 4M cap hit who was basically Vesa Toskala level all year and the entirety of the board has devolved into bull****.

Come on now man

I assume you have followed hockey for decades now to know better than this drivel

If you haven't then maybe you need to chill and appreciate other posters aren't idiots.

 

[chances14]

I mean, I understand where he's coming from. He's been a part of an organization that made the playoffs 25 times in a row, he's not going to completely abandon that as the goal after we miss once.

But I think the issue is, as Custance alluded to, the potential to fall in purgatory with Holland at the helm is too high. When you have someone hungry to get in the playoffs, I'm not sure that same person can prioritize re-building accordingly. I think he did a good job with this most recent trade deadline, but will he do the same thing next year if we aren't pretty much mathematically out of the picture? I'm not so sure. Will he trade Mrazek when his value is high if Mrazek has us unsustainably in the playoff picture? I'm not so sure.

I know he will look at the Flyers being in the playoff hunt until the end, and still getting a #2 pick... but that had a 2.4% chance of occurring. I think if Holland is extended, it will become apparent that something more aggressive than a few 7-14 picks is what is needed to turn this team around in a meaningful way.

holland is absolutely petrified with the thought of losing. I understand the mindset of wanting to win at all costs. but as a gm you need to be able to take some losing in the short term for long term success. I don't think holland has it in him to do that.

whether holland gets an extension or not will be really telling of the mindset of ownership. if he gets an extension, i think we will ultimately end up in another dead wings era. my last hope is that ownership comes to their senses and realizes that rebuild on the fly isn't going to work

We need an executive with this thought process https://theathletic.com/67998/2017/...l-executive-would-approach-red-wings-rebuild/

 

[Reddwit]

Yep... I'm out.

[...]

One ****ing non-playoff year [...] and the entirety of the board has devolved into bull****.

Well, if that's your interpretation of what's going on here, then I'm not sure why you stuck around and posted so much in the first place. What has taken place here is a natural attitude adjustment to the display in front of us. The frequency with which frustration is displayed on this board (outside of the token extremists on both sides) very closely mirrors the frequency with which poor decisions have been made. All you're witnessing is that any honest individual who was grasping at straws to defend the team is now realizing there aren't even any straws left to latch on to.

 

[Bench]

holland is absolutely petrified with the thought of losing. I understand the mindset of wanting to win at all costs. but as a gm you need to be able to take some losing in the short term for long term success. I don't think holland has it in him to do that.

whether holland gets an extension or not will be really telling of the mindset of ownership. if he gets an extension, i think we will ultimately end up in another dead wings era

We need an executive with this thought process https://theathletic.com/67998/2017/...l-executive-would-approach-red-wings-rebuild/

Holland thinks he can beat the odds. I mean, look at his quote from the article:

"If I’m wrong," Holland said, "your plan is going to work."

First off, obviously he doesn't think he's wrong... but if he is, he thinks he'll get the lottery picks anyway. So for him it's a win-win. Try to be the best possible team and if you fail, you still rebuild. I've actually heard this argument before from people here. There's a certain logic to it that you can follow.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuttttttttttttttt (pretend I kept typing this out even longer)

This ignores that teams trying to compete today structure their lineup and subsequent roster decisions completely differently than those competing for tomorrow. That is to say, contracts are different. Trades are different. All of it takes a different approach. A competing team is totally fine if your veteran depth player is overpaid because, who cares, you're trying to win today. A building team wants to free that spot up for a future contributor and groom him into bigger minutes, even if today he's not as good as the veteran. The rebuilding team also doesn't want to commit large contracts to many veterans because the young talent will eventually require raises if they perform well and keeping your contributing youthful core is the most important part of any rebuild.

What Holland is attempting to do is split the difference. Half measures. So we've got King Solomon trying to sell us that cutting our baby in half is going to solve our problems. Unfortunately, he's not the wise mediator, and the fans are the pleading mother trying to tell him to give the baby to someone else so it may live. We're OK losing, King Kenny! The fans are OK without a few years of playoffs! Please, your majesty, hear our pleas!

That allegory slipped away from me a little there.

 

[Frk It]

What Holland is attempting to do is split the difference. Half measures.

This is why I think our most likely situation is purgatory.

 

[Syckle78]

Holland thinks he can beat the odds. I mean, look at his quote from the article:



First off, obviously he doesn't think he's wrong... but if he is, he thinks he'll get the lottery picks anyway. So for him it's a win-win. Try to be the best possible team and if you fail, you still rebuild. I've actually heard this argument before from people here. There's a certain logic to it that you can follow.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuttttttttttttttt (pretend I kept typing this out even longer)

This ignores that teams trying to compete today structure their lineup and subsequent roster decisions completely differently than those competing for tomorrow. That is to say, contracts are different. Trades are different. All of it takes a different approach. A competing team is totally fine if your veteran depth player is overpaid because, who cares, you're trying to win today. A building team wants to free that spot up for a future contributor and groom him into bigger minutes, even if today he's not as good as the veteran. The rebuilding team also doesn't want to commit large contracts to many veterans because the young talent will eventually require raises if they perform well and keeping your contributing youthful core is the most important part of any rebuild.

What Holland is attempting to do is split the difference. Half measures. So we've got King Solomon trying to sell us that cutting our baby in half is going to solve our problems. Unfortunately, he's not the wise mediator, and the fans are the pleading mother trying to tell him to give the baby to someone else so it may live. We're OK losing, King Kenny! The fans are OK without a few years of playoffs! Please, your majesty, hear our pleas!

That allegory slipped away from me a little there.

You just had to one up my inept doctor analogy. Lol

Very good point, though. Even if by some miracle we get everything we need by unintentionally failing into drafting high we're going to be screwed cap wise when those players we draft are ready for their pay day.

 

[Frk It]

holland is absolutely petrified with the thought of losing. I understand the mindset of wanting to win at all costs. but as a gm you need to be able to take some losing in the short term for long term success. I don't think holland has it in him to do that.

whether holland gets an extension or not will be really telling of the mindset of ownership. if he gets an extension, i think we will ultimately end up in another dead wings era. my last hope is that ownership comes to their senses and realizes that rebuild on the fly isn't going to work

We need an executive with this thought process https://theathletic.com/67998/2017/...l-executive-would-approach-red-wings-rebuild/

That's a good article, a better article actually than the original one posted, IMO.

Our problem in a nutshell:

Use free agency to eventually land a franchise player: In my opinion, this is a sucker’s bet that many rebuilding teams fall into, particularly teams with a history of being the alpha males of the NHL, like the Red Wings have been. Virtually every team in the NHL thinks they are special in some way, shape or form (ok, maybe not Winnipeg). This is even more pronounced when you have actually been special. Organizational hubris gets woven into your DNA, and only gets worse when you start filling the front office and coaching ranks with former players from your golden era.

Everyone drinks the Kool-Aid, and there is often no voice in the room to offer a counter-balancing opinion. The real danger here is that you lose perspective of where you actually are in your competitive cycle and then compound this by making poor free agent and/or contract decisions to reinforce your perception of being a destination franchise.

https://theathletic.com/67998/2017/...l-executive-would-approach-red-wings-rebuild/

 

[Bench]

This is why I think our most likely situation is purgatory.

I mean, I don't think that's a hypothetical. I think the last couple seasons are already purgatory. Squeaking into the playoffs to be first round fodder is mediocrity. Unless you're raising banners for being the 16th team out of 30.

If Kenny doesn't pull off any strange trades and stays quiet in free agency, this team will continue to bottom out more often than squeak into the playoffs. If he rebuilds while giving lip service about not rebuilding, I guess that's OK. But the way he's posturing, I expect a trade for a veteran defender (Get ready for Dion Phanooouuf) and a few pointless UFA contracts to help the team compete for a playoff spot.

 

[TCNorthstars]

But if you're not that type of person, you need to generate the good discussions. Do you want to talk about Larkin's skating? Maybe look at what made Howard's truncated season a success compared to years past? Or you could help kickstart an analysis on Mantha's wrist shot. There's good hockey topics to talk about that don't include dogging Holland. Be the change you want to see, eh?

That is a nice thought and suggestion Bench, but it doesn't take long for those kinds of threads to devolve into Holland dogging and you know it.

 

[Reddwit]

holland is absolutely petrified with the thought of losing. I understand the mindset of wanting to win at all costs. but as a gm you need to be able to take some losing in the short term for long term success. I don't think holland has it in him to do that.

whether holland gets an extension or not will be really telling of the mindset of ownership. if he gets an extension, i think we will ultimately end up in another dead wings era. my last hope is that ownership comes to their senses and realizes that rebuild on the fly isn't going to work

We need an executive with this thought process https://theathletic.com/67998/2017/...l-executive-would-approach-red-wings-rebuild/

I'm beginning to think that Holland convinced the Illitch's to let him ride out his contract with a "rebuilding on the fly" approach, and that when his contract is up, he'll either leave or concede defeat and agree to a true rebuild. That's the only thing that seems to explain his increasing fervor with respect to talking down rebuilding and eschewing talent development in favor of signing known talents. Beginning with trading a top prospect, Jarnkrok (on the heels of "attitude problems," of course), for Legwand, the moves Holland has been making are just drenched in desperation. And the more time has gone on, the more willing he's been to drop gaudy numbers on known talent (Helm, Dekeyser, Nielsen). I think time is running out for him and his plan.

Side note - Of course this article is being hosted by some website called "The Athletic." Custance is a member of the old beat writing guard, and yet he can't get his article posted to any Red Wings-related website? Careful, Custance. Might find yourself without a press pass soon.

 

[Reddwit]

That is a nice thought and suggestion Bench, but it doesn't take long for those kinds of threads to devolve into Holland dogging and you know it.

There's like a 20 page topic on the draft right now, and 99% of it has little to do with Holland.

 

[Bench]

That is a nice thought and suggestion Bench, but it doesn't take long for those kinds of threads to devolve into Holland dogging and you know it.

The topics need to be focused and revolve around the actual hockey part of the game. Things specifically that don't include the larger picture of the franchise. Anytime you get into the meta of winning hockey games, ie rosters and coaching, of course it's going to be full of thrown shade.

If a topic is kept to specifics about players it acts as an insulator. I mean, I love talking about Zetterberg's puck control. And I think it might be tough to come up with a way to bash Holland when we're commenting on his ability to keep his body between himself and the puck. And I have faith our mods would help cut out the stuff that didn't belong, even if that appeared.

 

[Bench]

That's a good article, a better article actually than the original one posted, IMO.

I know, right? It sums up what so many of us have been saying for awhile now. And the fact it comes from a former NHL executive helps lend some credibility to our ravings.

This part in particular spoke to me:

The Red Wings simply don’t have the young horses you need to build around in order to compete at the elite level in the modern NHL, and I think they need to have a table at the front of the draft floor for a few years in order to acquire them. Moreover, they have a fan base with a high hockey IQ that will both understand and support the rationale behind a full-blown rebuild. Playing an extra few home games in April will simply not cut it in a sophisticated hockey market that both understands what it takes and expects to win championships.

Emphasis mine. Yes. I've made that exact argument here before many, many times. We are a sophisticated hockey market that will completely understand a few down years for the greater good. In fact, I've said it so often I'm suspicious if the author is lurking this very post.

 

[jkutswings]

To anchor the entire defense? Jesus. I don't think anyone thought he was going to do that, but he could've been a legitimate #2, and that is surely a home run for any scout.

I don't disagree at all, but the original topic was finding studs outside the top 5, and a legit #2 is not a stud.

 

[Flowah]

Holland thinks he can beat the odds. I mean, look at his quote from the article:
First off, obviously he doesn't think he's wrong... but if he is, he thinks he'll get the lottery picks anyway. So for him it's a win-win. Try to be the best possible team and if you fail, you still rebuild. I've actually heard this argument before from people here. There's a certain logic to it that you can follow.

The logic is godawful.

There's levels of failure. Unless you're dead last, you have bad odds of top3 picks. We're picking #9 for ****'s sake. You're almost certainly not going to find the franchise pick from there.

We're basically doing the worst strategy possible. Half assing 2 things instead of full assing 1 thing. No wonder the results are so mediocre.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I think The Athletic has earned my money. Those two articles are some of the best sports journalism the Wings have ever seen.

 

[jkutswings]

The logic is godawful.

There's levels of failure. Unless you're dead last, you have bad odds of top3 picks. We're picking #9 for ****'s sake. You're almost certainly not going to find the franchise pick from there.

We're basically doing the worst strategy possible. Half assing 2 things instead of full assing 1 thing. No wonder the results are so mediocre.

Sounds about right.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Holland thinks he can beat the odds. I mean, look at his quote from the article:



First off, obviously he doesn't think he's wrong... but if he is, he thinks he'll get the lottery picks anyway. So for him it's a win-win. Try to be the best possible team and if you fail, you still rebuild. I've actually heard this argument before from people here. There's a certain logic to it that you can follow.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuttttttttttttttt (pretend I kept typing this out even longer)

This ignores that teams trying to compete today structure their lineup and subsequent roster decisions completely differently than those competing for tomorrow. That is to say, contracts are different. Trades are different. All of it takes a different approach. A competing team is totally fine if your veteran depth player is overpaid because, who cares, you're trying to win today. A building team wants to free that spot up for a future contributor and groom him into bigger minutes, even if today he's not as good as the veteran. The rebuilding team also doesn't want to commit large contracts to many veterans because the young talent will eventually require raises if they perform well and keeping your contributing youthful core is the most important part of any rebuild.

What Holland is attempting to do is split the difference. Half measures. So we've got King Solomon trying to sell us that cutting our baby in half is going to solve our problems. Unfortunately, he's not the wise mediator, and the fans are the pleading mother trying to tell him to give the baby to someone else so it may live. We're OK losing, King Kenny! The fans are OK without a few years of playoffs! Please, your majesty, hear our pleas!

That allegory slipped away from me a little there.

We need to meme this. Wise King Holland.

Of course, you know what happened to the real King Solomon? He led Israel to it's greatest heights of power and prosperity, built the great Temple of Solomon and his name became a byword for wisdom around the world. And then arrogance and hubris took over, 800 wives and concubines, a civil war with his sons that permanently split the kingdom in two, and the nation never again regained it's former power and prestige.

Kenny needs to read the book of Ecclesiastes. There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Frk It]

There's like a 20 page topic on the draft right now, and 99% of it has little to do with Holland.

Best thread + discusson on here

 

[Henkka]

Shane Doan not extended at Arizona.

It's now time for Kenny finally get him.

 

[waltdetroit]

The Red Wings are unique. They are a team that continues to struggle to find an identity, neither close to contender or accepting a rebuild. So you have a fan base that's unable to "move on" as it were. The team isn't dead, but it's also not alive.

So this team is sorta like an inverse of Schrödinger's cat?

 

[HockeyinHD]

Come on now man

I assume you have followed hockey for decades now to know better than this drivel

If you haven't then maybe you need to chill and appreciate other posters aren't idiots.

Spoiled, though.