The Long Fix Rebuild

[HockeyinHD]

Oh look. I remember that dead horse.

The Detroit Red Wings do a wonderful job of collecting middle six to depth NHL players, and have done so for an incredibly long period of time.

Excellent. Then we agree, and that was the point I was making to WW. As his schtick is utter contempt for the entire organization, however, such nuance is beyond his ken.

However, it does absolutely nothing to address the real problem with the current NHL roster, of needing first line talent to anchor all that depth. Therefore, the biggest issue shows no sign of improving anytime soon (at least until they start regularly getting, and hitting on, higher draft picks).

Obviously. That's a problem the whole NHL has, though, which makes it mostly barren of interesting content for discussion. The teams whose elite players are either ascending or at/near peak are generally doing well, the teams whose elite players are either declining or actually not elite are struggling.

Teams usually get those players early in drafts, the success of those early picks at landing elite players is well south of 50% (and even 30%), but sometimes teams cash in a lottery ticket later and get one.

Such is the nature of a capped league like the NHL. Howling that Detroit is bad at landing elite players (now, after having been amazing at it for a long time) is all well and good, and it's even accurate! Complaining that they didn't try and be worse sooner on the off chance they'd maybe get better sooner some day in the future isn't a particularly intellectually rigorous position, but I cede it's allure.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Not picking high and not accumulating picks was a mistake.

Unless your goal was to remain in the playoffs. Then it was precisely what he should have done.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Unless your goal was to remain in the playoffs. Then it was precisely what he should have done.

And if that is their only goal, then that is a sad state of the organization.

Remember when the team wanted cups? Remember when the bar was high?

 

[Flowah]

On the other hand, you're pretending like the first playoff miss in over 25 years is an indication that the whole organization is entirely incompetent, the whole roster is a blight on the very name of hockey, and also, that they are not good.

It's not a difficult argument, if you were amenable to listening.

Missing the playoffs was just an event that marked the culmination of years of incompetency. It's not like people were satisfied with the direction of the team until this year when we missed. The accusations of organizational mismanagement have been consistent and have been leveled for years.

If you thought it was JUST missing the playoffs, you were wrong. I suspect you know that deep down you were already wrong. It was just convenient for you to pretend like you didn't. We've been trending down since 2009. We've barely made the playoffs for the past 3 years, even with Babcock, even with Datsyuk still on the team. This year we finally missed. It was a long time coming.

And if that is their only goal, then that is a sad state of the organization.

Remember when the team wanted cups? Remember when the bar was high?

"Playoffs" is an even sadder goal when you realize over half the teams make it every season. "Yay! We're in the top 50% of the league!" What an accomplishment. I'm clapping so loudly I'm sure you can all hear me from your computers.

 

[Bench]

"Playoffs" is an even sadder goal when you realize over half the teams make it every season. "Yay! We're in the top 50% of the league!" What an accomplishment. I'm clapping so loudly I'm sure you can all hear me from your computers.

Don't forget 2-3 teams are always deliberately rebuilding at any given time and there's a few budget teams that don't spend to the cap. If you throw out the teams not even attempting to make the playoffs, the bar is not being in the bottom 10.

 

[Flowah]

Don't forget 2-3 teams are always deliberately rebuilding at any given time and there's a few budget teams that don't spend to the cap. If you throw out the teams not even attempting to make the playoffs, the bar is not being in the bottom 10.

Good point.

We spent to the cap. Weren't we one of the top spending teams this season? It was a really sad display.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Don't forget 2-3 teams are always deliberately rebuilding at any given time and there's a few budget teams that don't spend to the cap. If you throw out the teams not even attempting to make the playoffs, the bar is not being in the bottom 10.

That's honestly ridiculous. I don't think there was a single team not talking about making the playoff this past season. Should a team with some cap space not be counted as trying?

There some very weird hoops being jumped through in order to paint the Wings as bigger failures than they are. Like they're the only ones who didn't miss the playoffs on purpose. Or the only ones that even care about making the playoffs unless they have a high % chance to win the cup (all those fans of Toronto cheering a playoff appearance..losers!). Oh and remember they have the highest cap (please ignore that 80% of teams are within a million or two)??

 

[Bench]

That's honestly ridiculous. I don't think there was a single team not talking about making the playoff this past season. Should a team with some cap space not be counted as trying?

There some very weird hoops being jumped through in order to paint the Wings as bigger failures than they are. Like they're the only ones who didn't miss the playoffs on purpose. Or the only ones that even care about making the playoffs unless they have a high % chance to win the cup (all those fans of Toronto cheering a playoff appearance..losers!). Oh and remember they have the highest cap (please ignore that 80% of teams are within a million or two)??

So you think Arizona, after trading for Datsyuk's $7 million dead cap hit, was eyeing a playoff run this year? And I'm the one being ridiculous? You realize these other teams have managers that actually use the word "rebuild" to describe their current state of affairs, right?

Are we forgetting about the famous Buffalo tank job to attempt to get McDavid? Staff came out afterwards saying they were trying their best but management was pretty clearly hamstringing the roster. So yes, I believe every season there are 2-3 teams that basically have no realistic expectations of making the playoffs. And I also believe there are also a few teams that will never spend to the cap to make their team as competitive as they could be. These aren't controversial statements. At least, I didn't think so.

And no, I didn't paint the Red Wings as the only ones who didn't miss the playoffs on purpose. I painted them, I believe accurately, as one of 10ish teams that didn't make the playoffs on purpose. Even if we think every single team is trying to make the playoffs equally, OK, they were one of 14 teams. Congratulations? You moved the bar a few teams to include firmly rebuilding teams like Arizona, New Jersey, and Carolina. How that helps, I don't know, but sure.

 

[Henkka]

Nobody is saying that guys like Hronek and Cholowski won't step in and contribute (sooner or later). But to expect either one to develop all the way into the 1A anchor that the defense needs so desperately is unrealistic.

This team needs studs. Studs are incredibly hard to find outside of the top 5, and Detroit hasn't been able to strike lightning in that extremely difficult department in two decades. Thus the desire by some fans to rack up a few bottom 5 seasons, and maximize the odds of having the best draft stock available.

If you are talking about defencemen only, this is absolutely PURE CRAP.

 

[Pavels Dog]

So you think Arizona, after trading for Datsyuk's $7 million dead cap hit, was eyeing a playoff run this year? And I'm the one being ridiculous? You realize these other teams have managers that actually use the word "rebuild" to describe their current state of affairs, right?

Are we forgetting about the famous Buffalo tank job to attempt to get McDavid? Staff came out afterwards saying they were trying their best but management was pretty clearly hamstringing the roster. So yes, I believe every season there are 2-3 teams that basically have no realistic expectations of making the playoffs. And I also believe there are also a few teams that will never spend to the cap to make their team as competitive as they could be. These aren't controversial statements. At least, I didn't think so.

And no, I didn't paint the Red Wings as the only ones who didn't miss the playoffs on purpose. I painted them, I believe accurately, as one of 10ish teams that didn't make the playoffs on purpose. Even if we think every single team is trying to make the playoffs equally, OK, they were one of 14 teams. Congratulations? You moved the bar a few teams to include firmly rebuilding teams like Arizona, New Jersey, and Carolina. How that helps, I don't know, but sure.

https://www.nhl.com/coyotes/news/coyotes-have-high-expectations-for-16-17/c-282630038

"Our team is looking to try and make the playoffs this year"

"We have high expectations. Our group is looking to take that next step and be a competitive team every night, and with that comes the expectation of making the playoffs. That's the goal and I think we have a group that can do that."

They're a budget team, they took on an empty cap hit. And sure, they're one of the most clearly rebuilding teams in the league with a new GM and a roster devoid of almost any established talent. Yet there was plenty of talk about trying to make the playoffs before the season.

Buffalo tanked one season. I don't see any evidence that you have 2-3 teams not trying every year. Budget teams are also not always bad, though they do struggle to stay competitive year in and year out.

 

[odin1981]

If you are talking about defencemen only, this is absolutely PURE CRAP.

I believe he is talking more unilaterally. There is no base to build on. While Z had a very good year he is on his last legs. And he is our only, only player that could be considered elite (at one time now just very good).

No centers in the pipeline that are promising (Svech is like Larkin but at a lower level in that he is already moved into a winger position).

Defense is really, really lacking. Both at the NHL level and the prospects/ahl. Hronek (forget his last name exactly) and one other young man are the only two that might make the NHL.

And in goal unless Mrazek turns it around (hopefully it is just a sophomore slump) we don't have anything coming in a near future. Coreau is nothing spectacular and more than likely not be out of the league in 1-2 years.

So to my conclusion (and many others) unless we get rewarded by the lottery balls we, as fans can be expecting a very, very long process of getting good again.

 

[Heaton]

https://www.nhl.com/coyotes/news/coyotes-have-high-expectations-for-16-17/c-282630038


They're a budget team, they took on an empty cap hit. And sure, they're one of the most clearly rebuilding teams in the league with a new GM and a roster devoid of almost any established talent. Yet there was plenty of talk about trying to make the playoffs before the season.

Buffalo tanked one season. I don't see any evidence that you have 2-3 teams not trying every year. Budget teams are also not always bad, though they do struggle to stay competitive year in and year out.

Every team says they want to make the playoffs every year, so that doesn't mean much. Their actions say otherwise, which is what matters.

 

[Winger98]

Unless your goal was to remain in the playoffs. Then it was precisely what he should have done.

we've went round and round about this before. We disagree that Holland couldn't have made moves to accumulate picks while still being a playoff team.

 

[Bench]

Every team says they want to make the playoffs every year, so that doesn't mean much. Their actions say otherwise, which is what matters.

No kidding. Fairly significant difference between the expectation you will and pushing your team to compete for it. Everyone knows Arizona is waist deep in a complete rebuild from the ground up.

Arizona doesn't trade for Pavel Datsyuk with an expectation to make the playoffs. This is such a dishonest conversation I don't even know where to begin. There are always 2-3 teams straight up rebuilding at any given time. I can't believe we're not able to agree on this simple fact. Alternative facts are spreading into my hockey world.

Buffalo tanked one season. I don't see any evidence that you have 2-3 teams not trying every year. Budget teams are also not always bad, though they do struggle to stay competitive year in and year out.

Maybe you didn't check out Edmonton, Arizona, and Toronto that Buffalo tank year. It was a race to the bottom. Toronto has also been very vocal about their rebuild, particularly in the year they acquired Matthews.

So you're saying all those teams were putting together the best roster possible to make the playoffs that season? Is that what you're suggesting? Because I'm suggesting they deliberately iced an inferior roster in the present for the sake of both acquiring a high draft pick and grooming their young talent.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

That's honestly ridiculous. I don't think there was a single team not talking about making the playoff this past season. Should a team with some cap space not be counted as trying?

Not what anyone contended, but it speaks to the point that a team needing a 7 million dollar contract to keep them at the cap floor is not going to be a playoff contender barring an insane season by a select couple of individuals.

There some very weird hoops being jumped through in order to paint the Wings as bigger failures than they are. Like they're the only ones who didn't miss the playoffs on purpose.

This was never asserted.

Or the only ones that even care about making the playoffs unless they have a high % chance to win the cup (all those fans of Toronto cheering a playoff appearance..losers!).

This was never asserted.

Oh and remember they have the highest cap (please ignore that 80% of teams are within a million or two)??

Even if some teams were right behind Detroit in spending, how the hell does that make missing the playoffs the way they did somehow acceptable? Come on, you are splitting hairs and not addressing the general concept of a cap team being one of the worst in the league.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Folks can ignore facts for as long as they want, but the truth is, the Detroit Red Wings are a poorly managed organization.

Atrocious cap management.
Abysmal team building philosophy.
Awful drafting (buhhh buhh the Wings had a bunch of late round picks) Too bad, they chose to continue down that path. If they aren't capable of addressing their needs with a bunch of 12-18th overall picks, they shouldn't put the organization in that position.

The Wings are an incompetent organization that have absolutely nothing to look forward to. Ohhh boy, i can't wait to see that bottom six winger make the Wings in 405 years. Yeeeeee hawwwwww!!!!!!!!!!

If you disagree, you better have a better argument than, "Look at da Grand Rapid Griffins" Lol can i expect that argument to devolve into "look at the Toledo Walleye's" in five years?

Garbage team is garbage. Any other organization would have gotten rid of the trash management that ran this team into the ground.

I am sick and tired of the pitiful excuses that continue to be made for this trash organization that is being run by Mr.Magoo's black sheep cousin.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Folks can ignore facts for as long as they want, but the truth is, the Detroit Red Wings are a poorly managed organization.

Atrocious cap management.
Abysmal team building philosophy.
Awful drafting (buhhh buhh the Wings had a bunch of late round picks) Too bad, they chose to continue down that path. If they aren't capable of addressing their needs with a bunch of 12-18th overall picks, they shouldn't put the organization in that position.

The Wings are an incompetent organization that have absolutely nothing to look forward to. Ohhh boy, i can't wait to see that bottom six winger make the Wings in 405 years. Yeeeeee hawwwwww!!!!!!!!!!

If you disagree, you better have a better argument than, "Look at da Grand Rapid Griffins" Lol can i expect that argument to devolve into "look at the Toledo Walleye's" in five years?

Garbage team is garbage. Any other organization would have gotten rid of the trash management that ran this team into the ground.

I am sick and tired of the pitiful excuses that continue to be made for this trash organization that is being run by Mr.Magoo's black sheep cousin.

You can't yell at the drafting when the wings haven't had a top ten pick since the early 90s. The only thing they've been bad at drafting is dmen. And most of those guys that picked them are now gone.

 

[Pavels Dog]

No kidding. Fairly significant difference between the expectation you will and pushing your team to compete for it. Everyone knows Arizona is waist deep in a complete rebuild from the ground up.

Arizona doesn't trade for Pavel Datsyuk with an expectation to make the playoffs. This is such a dishonest conversation I don't even know where to begin. There are always 2-3 teams straight up rebuilding at any given time. I can't believe we're not able to agree on this simple fact. Alternative facts are spreading into my hockey world.



Maybe you didn't check out Edmonton, Arizona, and Toronto that Buffalo tank year. It was a race to the bottom. Toronto has also been very vocal about their rebuild, particularly in the year they acquired Matthews.

So you're saying all those teams were putting together the best roster possible to make the playoffs that season? Is that what you're suggesting? Because I'm suggesting they deliberately iced an inferior roster in the present for the sake of both acquiring a high draft pick and grooming their young talent.

They also signed Goligoski to a big contract and overall talked a lot about wanting to improve. Rebuilding? Yes, but like Toronto they were hoping for a good season and weren't aiming for the bottom of the standings. They've been bad a long time, their ambition is to improve not to keep sucking.
You seem to confuse the fact that 2-3 teams always suck terribly with an idea that it's always deliberate, or that a team who starts tanking halfway into the season because they suck were planning it from the start.
Colorado didn't do it on purpose. Devils didn't. Vancouver didn't. Did they put the best roster humanly possible on the ice? Probably not, but did we?
You focus on a McDavid/Eichel season as if that's the standard, when it's clearly an outlier.

Every team says they want to make the playoffs every year, so that doesn't mean much. Their actions say otherwise, which is what matters.

Then we can agree that even if Holland signs 1 or 2 veterans, even long-term, he is still rebuilding? And even if he talks about playoffs, it doesn't matter because his actions will show his intentions?

 

[jkutswings]

If you are talking about defencemen only, this is absolutely PURE CRAP.

While I was speaking about highly talented players regardless of position on the ice, I wasn't aware that it isn't hard to find stud defenseman outside the top 5.

CAN they be found? Sure. But let's not pretend that it's a walk in the park to land one.

 

[Henkka]

While I was speaking about highly talented players regardless of position on the ice, I wasn't aware that it isn't hard to find stud defenseman outside the top 5.

CAN they be found? Sure. But let's not pretend that it's a walk in the park to land one.

Yep. It look tough for Jim Nill and Joe MacDonell to find. HÃ¥kan Andersson did find Fischer and Kronwall for them but othervise these bust drafters didn't found any better than Kyle Quincey during 18 seasons.

 

[jkutswings]

Excellent. Then we agree, and that was the point I was making to WW. As his schtick is utter contempt for the entire organization, however, such nuance is beyond his ken.



Obviously. That's a problem the whole NHL has, though, which makes it mostly barren of interesting content for discussion. The teams whose elite players are either ascending or at/near peak are generally doing well, the teams whose elite players are either declining or actually not elite are struggling.

Teams usually get those players early in drafts, the success of those early picks at landing elite players is well south of 50% (and even 30%), but sometimes teams cash in a lottery ticket later and get one.

Such is the nature of a capped league like the NHL. Howling that Detroit is bad at landing elite players (now, after having been amazing at it for a long time) is all well and good, and it's even accurate! Complaining that they didn't try and be worse sooner on the off chance they'd maybe get better sooner some day in the future isn't a particularly intellectually rigorous position, but I cede it's allure.

And with THIS team, many people have seen the writing on the wall for at least a few years now. Sure, it's hard for every single team to find the next great player(s).


But when Detroit has been past their window of contention for awhile...
and now has ended The Streak altogether...
and has nothing in the pipeline that's more than more of the same secondary players...
AND has their GM on record as saying he has no interest in rebuilding to have a better chance at finding those great players...

Then we're not in the same boat as 85% of the league. We're at the start of being a bottom feeder, with no interest from management in prioritizing a logical fix.

 

[Winger98]

Folks can ignore facts for as long as they want, but the truth is, the Detroit Red Wings are a poorly managed organization.

Atrocious cap management.
Abysmal team building philosophy.
Awful drafting (buhhh buhh the Wings had a bunch of late round picks) Too bad, they chose to continue down that path. If they aren't capable of addressing their needs with a bunch of 12-18th overall picks, they shouldn't put the organization in that position.

They've had all of one of those since 1991.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

They've had all of one of those since 1991.

He should have said 14-20 & specified trading down out of that range still counts as that's a intentional and deliberate decision.

 

[Winger98]

He should have said 14-20 & specified trading down out of that range still counts as that's a intentional and deliberate decision.

that adds, what, one or two more times? In 25 years? And both of those times have been in the past five years (past three?) haven't they? Even then I think one of those trade downs we grabbed Mantha, which I don't think we should be complaining about.

 

[Red Stanley]

Has the sky fallen yet?