Player Discussion The Henrik & Daniel Sedin Discussion - Part IV | Encore for 2019?

[arttk]

We should really all just ignore the pauser on this subject.

He hates the Sedins and tries to find reasons to justify the hate.

It's not the other way around. How else can anyone explain him *****ing about them back when they were signed to like 3.XM per year and putting up 70-80ish points.

This has been going on for more than a freaking decade. "Cannot forgive them for not performing in the SCF'" is a BS excuse and we all know it. You might as well come clean and tell us you can't forgive them for their very existence.

 

[huntison]

Split them up!

Burrows - Henrik - Vrbata
Daniel - Horvat - Higgins
Bae - Sutter - Hansen
Kenins - Prust - Dorsett
Virtanen

 

[Hardyvan123]

Jonathan "Mr Clutch" Toews was a -4 in just the Canucks series. Kane was a minus player in the playoffs from 2008-2011 (The three years we played them), including a -9 in 2008.

Plus Minus is a terrible stat that can be easily misleading.

Sure plus minus isn't the best stat in the world but those 3 were by far the worst on the Canucks that playoffs and just a terrible number for any Conn Smythe consideration right?

Speaking of misleading stats, the Sedins were dynamite against the Ssharks in actual points, in the other 3 rounds kinda dismal.

Any player can have a bad round or 2 but 3 is kind of telling as is double digit minus ratings when leading a team in scoring, looking strictly at points without context doesn't really tell us very much and to do so paints an inaccurate picture of the Sedins that playoff year plain and simple.

Sure teams win playoff series and SC but usually a teams best players carry the day as well.

 

[bossram]

Sure plus minus isn't the best stat in the world but those 3 were by far the worst on the Canucks that playoffs and just a terrible number for any Conn Smythe consideration right?

Speaking of misleading stats, the Sedins were dynamite against the Ssharks in actual points, in the other 3 rounds kinda dismal.

Any player can have a bad round or 2 but 3 is kind of telling as is double digit minus ratings when leading a team in scoring, looking strictly at points without context doesn't really tell us very much and to do so paints an inaccurate picture of the Sedins that playoff year plain and simple.

Sure teams win playoff series and SC but usually a teams best players carry the day as well.

That's not really true though. The production wasn't there as much as you like, but like in the Calgary series this year, their possession numbers were stellar. While also, as always, taking on the toughest assignments other teams can throw at them.

But as the top players, their job is ultimately to produce. So I see the other side.

It just sucks. That 2011 team was a juggernaut. They were the best team in the league and best ever in Canucks history. The ending didn't happen. That's sports. Sometimes you lose the coin flip. Injuries were a significant problem and our forward depth wasn't great to begin with. I don't think the Sedins were the reason we lost.

 

[y2kcanucks]

That's not really true though. The production wasn't there as much as you like, but like in the Calgary series this year, their possession numbers were stellar. While also, as always, taking on the toughest assignments other teams can throw at them.

But as the top players, their job is ultimately to produce. So I see the other side.

It just sucks. That 2011 team was a juggernaut. They were the best team in the league and best ever in Canucks history. The ending didn't happen. That's sports. Sometimes you lose the coin flip. Injuries were a significant problem and our forward depth wasn't great to begin with. I don't think the Sedins were the reason we lost.

Who cares?

Give me a player with the worst possession numbers in the league, as long as he's producing I won't give a damn.

But hey, even though we didn't advance past the first round of the playoffs for the 4th straight year, at least we were in contention for the much more coveted Corsi Cup right?

In 2011 injuries were definitely a significant problem, but the offense was ultimately the symptom of why we lost. We couldn't score enough goals, and because of that you look to your leaders in that category. The Sedins didn't produce enough in the 2011 playoffs for this team to win the Stanley Cup. If not for the SJ series, you would look at their stats and say they were a downright embarrassment.

 

[seafoam]

I understand they probably retire as Canucks, but what is their trade value?

 

[Vtownfan]

If there are any players who transcend the normal back and forth over statistics,salary,trades etc it is these two guys. There are not two classier guys in pro sports. All they have done every year since they arrived as two alien looking Swedish teens is work their butts off year in and year out.

They have given this fan base absolutely jaw dropping displays of skill and Sedinery season in and season out. When everyone doubted them after the Torts year, they bounce back with League Top 10 production again at 34 years old.

They give millions to local charities in hard cash and time and embraced this city and it's neurotic fan base as not even a second home, a first home.

If was sitting in the GM's chair these guys would only get moved if they specifically requested a chance to win a cup, no matter the return a trade might fetch.

Personally I hope that this team can retool in time to give them another run at the cup, so those odd headed ginger wizards can raise Stanley's mug in a Canucks uniform. I would be more than fine if they signed another 2-3 year contract at 3-4 mil each and provided top notch secondary scoring for who ever replaces them on the 1st line.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I prefer players who score (and don't get lit up too) over guys who just direct pucks towards the other teams net.

I realize that there is a bit of a correlation, but at the end of the day I want results.

 

[RobertKron]

I prefer players who score (and don't get lit up too) over guys who just direct pucks towards the other teams net.

I realize that there is a bit of a correlation, but at the end of the day I want results.

Well, except the Sedins. Then you want players who hit or players who are from Canada or players who score unique points or whatever other ********.

 

[DL44]

I prefer players who score (and don't get lit up too) over guys who just direct pucks towards the other teams net.

I realize that there is a bit of a correlation, but at the end of the day I want results.

Have to agree... no brainer actually. Possession numbers are nice to quote if actual production is lacking.

Ideally a player has both production and possession stats in his favor... and more often than not they are locked together... but if given a choice, between a player with good possession numbers/lack of production vs bad possession numbers/good production, you take the actual production 9/10 times...

Too many team effects involved with possession numbers.

 

[bossram]

Have to agree... no brainer actually. Possession numbers are nice to quote if actual production is lacking.

Ideally a player has both production and possession stats in his favor... and more often than not they are locked together... but if given a choice, between a player with good possession numbers/lack of production vs bad possession numbers/good production, you take the actual production 9/10 times...

Too many team effects involved with possession numbers.

Generally though, we are interested in players with strong possession numbers because that has been demonstrated to have a stronger correlation with future goalsfor%.

Obviously you'd rather have tangible production, but there are very few elite level producers who are garbage possession players. They go together in many ways.

 

[Proto]

Sure plus minus isn't the best stat in the world but those 3 were by far the worst on the Canucks that playoffs and just a terrible number for any Conn Smythe consideration right?

Speaking of misleading stats, the Sedins were dynamite against the Ssharks in actual points, in the other 3 rounds kinda dismal.

Any player can have a bad round or 2 but 3 is kind of telling as is double digit minus ratings when leading a team in scoring, looking strictly at points without context doesn't really tell us very much and to do so paints an inaccurate picture of the Sedins that playoff year plain and simple.

Sure teams win playoff series and SC but usually a teams best players carry the day as well.

"The Sedins are more likely to score 50 points than 70 points" he said, shortly before they both scored 70 points and finished in the top 10 in scoring.

And yet, here you are, still plugging away on the hate train, trying to drum up interest.

Hardyvan123: wrong on the Sedins and wrong for America

I do admit I lol'd at the idea that we need more "context" to their production and thus should look to... /drumroll... plus/minus. I mean come on. Really? REALLY? PLUS MINUS is where we're at now? I knew I should have continued to ignore this thread.

 

[vanuck]

I like how the entire argument against the Sedins basically stems from one single playoff run where like 75% of the team was injured and couldn't score worth ****, yet they still led the team in points by a mile.

Style over substance I guess...

 

[y2kcanucks]

I like how the entire argument against the Sedins basically stems from one single playoff run where like 75% of the team was injured and couldn't score worth ****, yet they still led the team in points by a mile.

Style over substance I guess...

Haven't done much in the playoffs since then. Henrik was good against the LA Kings, but both were invisible against the Sharks, and neither produced against the Flames.

 

[I am toxic]

If there are any players who transcend the normal back and forth over statistics,salary,trades etc it is these two guys. There are not two classier guys in pro sports. All they have done every year since they arrived as two alien looking Swedish teens is work their butts off year in and year out.

They have given this fan base absolutely jaw dropping displays of skill and Sedinery season in and season out. When everyone doubted them after the Torts year, they bounce back with League Top 10 production again at 34 years old.

They give millions to local charities in hard cash and time and embraced this city and it's neurotic fan base as not even a second home, a first home.

If was sitting in the GM's chair these guys would only get moved if they specifically requested a chance to win a cup, no matter the return a trade might fetch.

Personally I hope that this team can retool in time to give them another run at the cup, so those odd headed ginger wizards can raise Stanley's mug in a Canucks uniform. I would be more than fine if they signed another 2-3 year contract at 3-4 mil each and provided top notch secondary scoring for who ever replaces them on the 1st line.

100% agree on that entire post

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

If there are any players who transcend the normal back and forth over statistics,salary,trades etc it is these two guys. There are not two classier guys in pro sports. All they have done every year since they arrived as two alien looking Swedish teens is work their butts off year in and year out.

They have given this fan base absolutely jaw dropping displays of skill and Sedinery season in and season out. When everyone doubted them after the Torts year, they bounce back with League Top 10 production again at 34 years old.

They give millions to local charities in hard cash and time and embraced this city and it's neurotic fan base as not even a second home, a first home.

If was sitting in the GM's chair these guys would only get moved if they specifically requested a chance to win a cup, no matter the return a trade might fetch.

Personally I hope that this team can retool in time to give them another run at the cup, so those odd headed ginger wizards can raise Stanley's mug in a Canucks uniform. I would be more than fine if they signed another 2-3 year contract at 3-4 mil each and provided top notch secondary scoring for who ever replaces them on the 1st line.

Abso-****ing-lutely, 100%.

I will add that if they somehow got traded, I will be cheering for whatever team that is from then on, even if it's the Leafs, Oilers, Bruins, don't care.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Haven't done much in the playoffs since then. Henrik was good against the LA Kings, but both were invisible against the Sharks, and neither produced against the Flames.

Sure, if you have an EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY narrow scope of what "producing" is. If they didn't, no one did. Somehow we played a 6-game series, winning two games, without a single player producing.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Sure, if you have an EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY narrow scope of what "producing" is. If they didn't, no one did. Somehow we played a 6-game series, winning two games, without a single player producing.

I see production as being relative to one's role. But I guess you're okay with our top liners producing as much as our 4C.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I see production as being relative to one's role. But I guess you're okay with our top liners producing as much as our 4C.

I'm fine with that if our 4C is producing as much as a 1st line. Just because one guy exceeds expectations doesn't mean the others guys fail expectations.

Also, assuming you mean Horvat, I don't know what basis you could call him our 4C in the playoffs. He was 8th in forward total ice time and ES ice time.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I'm fine with that if our 4C is producing as much as a 1st line. Just because one guy exceeds expectations doesn't mean the others guys fail expectations.

Also, assuming you mean Horvat, I don't know what basis you could call him our 4C in the playoffs. He was 8th in forward total ice time and ES ice time.

His role was that of our 4C. And sure, he exceeded expectations, but the Sedins failed to meet their expectations. They were expected to lead the team and the results weren't there. As usual.

 

[Captain Bowie]

His role was that of our 4C. And sure, he exceeded expectations, but the Sedins failed to meet their expectations. They were expected to lead the team and the results weren't there. As usual.

Except that they do lead the team in the playoffs, every single year since they've become first line players. The only time since 2007 (8 years/6 playoff appearances) a Sedin didn't lead the team in playoff scoring was 2010, when Samuelsson had 1 more point than each of them. And he scored a lot of his points along side the Sedins.

 

[vanuck]

Haven't done much in the playoffs since then. Henrik was good against the LA Kings, but both were invisible against the Sharks, and neither produced against the Flames.

So that's, like, 9 games since then? Man. Small sample is small.

 

[Hardyvan123]

"The Sedins are more likely to score 50 points than 70 points" he said, shortly before they both scored 70 points and finished in the top 10 in scoring.

Sure I was wrong on that and stated that before Vrbata was signed as a free agent and that's in the context of injuries as they get older and the overwhelming downward trend both twins had had since their outlier season in 10, something many on this board tried to say wasn't actually the case when it was.

The season before with Torts I would have been dead on but ya that was all Torts fault right?

And yet, here you are, still plugging away on the hate train, trying to drum up interest.

So not buying the cool aid, ie Sedins are great playoff performers and somehow equal to guys like Zetts/Dats ect... then the fallback is that I'm a hater? such a weak argument really.

Hardyvan123: wrong on the Sedins and wrong for America

Nope not really, the Sedins are great guys, great for the community and have been PPG type of players for the Canucks since the 05 lockout with a 2 season outlier increase, Hank an incredible season in 10.

What they haven't been is great playoff players or even very good international players, their careers will always be around point production and their incredible chemistry as twins (Daniel's complete downward spiral as a goal scorer gets way overlooked by the cool aid bunch here) and they aren't leading the Canucks to any SC or even being on a SC winning team here in Vancouver their contracts and positions on the team actually block that possibility a does the lack of elite talents coming up in the system.

I do admit I lol'd at the idea that we need more "context" to their production and thus should look to... /drumroll... plus/minus. I mean come on. Really? REALLY? PLUS MINUS is where we're at now? I knew I should have continued to ignore this thread.

Context provides a more clear picture of the Sedins and actually why they didn't lead the Canucks to a SC in 11, the plus minus and scoring great against the Sharks then being pretty much n

Bbut go ahead and ignore this thread and pretend that Hank is , has been and always will be 2010 Hank and that Daniel is still a legit top line goal scoring winger, when he isn't and he is clearly being carried by Hank at this point.

Sure the Keith hit accelerated an already downward trend but it's still reality.

 

[y2kcanucks]

So that's, like, 9 games since then? Man. Small sample is small.

We'd have a larger sample size to talk about if they did their jobs in the games they do have.

It's not all on them. The rest of the team hasn't been good either. But at the end of the day when the team fails you look to the leaders, and the leaders haven't done enough.

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

What they haven't been is great playoff players or even very good international players, their careers will always be around point production and their incredible chemistry as twins (Daniel's complete downward spiral as a goal scorer gets way overlooked by the cool aid bunch here) and they aren't leading the Canucks to any SC or even being on a SC winning team here in Vancouver their contracts and positions on the team actually block that possibility a does the lack of elite talents coming up in the system.

Olympic gold medal, led team Sweden to a WC, game 7 of the stanley cup finals.
You're still wrong.