Not over, just a lesser version who can step in if Reid or another of the defensive guys is injured.
The 2015 B Draft (Open Edition) has ended.
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Not over, just a lesser version who can step in if Reid or another of the defensive guys is injured.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Tommy Williams can play both wings, and Tom McCarthy has no real place here aside from as a spare.
St. Marseille was a very astute pick, and McCarthy ain't got anything on him either. If we move McCarthy to the press box then there's room for Williams on the 1st line. then FSM moves to the 2nd like RW spot. Or move the more scoring line-oriented Javanainen up and FSM to the 4th? He's not just a one dimensional scorer; he was a pretty good all-around player. Assuming Javanainen is one-dimensional, he doesn't hurt that 2nd line as it has Horeck to do the dirty work.
Tommy Williams - John Cullen - Brian Gionta
Pete Horeck - Willie Marshall - Arto Javanainen
Jack McDonald - Radek Bonk - Shorty Green
Ville Peltonen - Walt McKechnie - Frank St. Marseille
Rudy Migay, Tom McCarthy
every line with a physical presence. the first line has no one particularly aggressive, but all three had enough jam to win some battles by committee.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I know it would look nicer to get an 8th defenseman or a swingman, but I don't see one of either who stands out too much right now. Dawson will select an early HHOFer, one of the last remaining. Frank Rankin, Rover.
Note that by Iain Fyffe's methodology, he is behind Smaill, Loughlin, and Crawford, all of whom we drafted a long time ago, but also ahead of Baker, Davidson, McNamara, Ruttan and Maxwell (the latter two we didn't draft this year, the last one rightly so)
Rankin actually shouldn't fall this far. He's probably not a deserving HHOFer, but he's not that far off of many who are. I had forgotten that I put together this great bio before:
Note that by Iain Fyffe's methodology, he is behind Smaill, Loughlin, and Crawford, all of whom we drafted a long time ago, but also ahead of Baker, Davidson, McNamara, Ruttan and Maxwell (the latter two we didn't draft this year, the last one rightly so)
http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.ca/2012/01/meritorious-men-of-1910s.html said:
Rankin actually shouldn't fall this far. He's probably not a deserving HHOFer, but he's not that far off of many who are. I had forgotten that I put together this great bio before:
With the 324th pick in MLD2010, The Regina Capitals are pleased to select:
Frank Rankin, Rover
- 5'5", 145 lbs
- Inducted into the HHOF in 1961
- SOHA 1st Team All-Star (1910, 1911, 1913)
- SOHA 2nd Team All-Star (1912, 1914, 1915)
- SOHA Scoring Leader (1911, 1913)
- 63 goals in 21 games in SOHA from 1911 through 1915
- 15 goals in 13 SOHA playoff games from 1911 through 1915
- In 7 of 9 seasons, led his team either to the championship or to the finals
As a point of reference, Frank Foyston played two seasons with Rankin where statistics are available. During these two seasons, Foyston scored 29 goals in 12 games (2.42) and 5 in 4 playoff games (1.20); Rankin scored 21 in 10 games (2.10) and 7 in 6 playoff games (1.17).
The only other players of an established value to play in the SOHA during Rankin's career are Alf Skinner (4 goals in 6 games, 0.67) and Harry Meeking (16 goals in 6 games, 2.67)
loh.net said:
Players: The Ultimate A-Z Guide of Everyone Who has Ever Played in the NHL said:
Here is a little glimpse into what kind of player Rankin was. He was the captain in every article I could find. He was very strong offensively, and appeared to be a very courageous player who was conscientious defensively, too:
Toronto Sunday World said:
Toronto Sunday World said:
Toronto World said:
Montreal Gazette said:
Toronto World said:
Toronto Sunday World said:
Toronto World said:
Rankin almost went pro, but never did:
Toronto World said:
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Interesting set of 150 picks on these six teams in the A and B drafts (picks 1255-1404).
The usual 1100th-1300th picks fare, bookended by:
- players saved from even more precipitous falls than they deserved: Ken Daneyko, Orland Kurtenbach, Bill Barilko, Tiger Williams, Kirk Maltby, Charlie Burns, Roland Stoltz
- players drudged up from the depths of previous AA and A drafts, selected previously 1500s-2100s, suddenly thought worthy of a huge step up by a few classes of players:
- a few because they've added to their resumes since (Bieksa, Ryan, Wideman)
- a few who definitely looked like really strong additions to this class of players (Tom Reid, Roy Rickey, Ruslan Salei, Frank St. Marseille)
- too many to mention who probably could have waited 100-200 more picks
- a few who need more meat on the bones before they'd look good here (McLea, Augusta, Javanainen)
- and some who still seem just inexplicable (McCarthy, Klapac, Partinen, Kochta, Farda)
(note I didn't include Peltonen. There's bad, and then there's BAD. Peltonen had some degree of offensive and defensive ability, just not enough to look great among this class of players, but also not so bad that he's immensely far off from what you could have had instead. He's the kind of guy you look for as a spare IMO, not a top choice for any line, but a reasonable backup - just like Osborne, Barnes, Broten and Hogue, but what does he really have on any of them?)
But it only takes one person to draft a player not deserving.
The cooperative nature of the draft was an interesting change of pace. In that spirit, I'd like to take the cooperation to a new level. This should result in a superior "product" while still giving everyone the chance to get recognition to players they want to recognize.
The thread is coming soon.
The usual 1100th-1300th picks fare, bookended by:
- players saved from even more precipitous falls than they deserved: Ken Daneyko, Orland Kurtenbach, Bill Barilko, Tiger Williams, Kirk Maltby, Charlie Burns, Roland Stoltz
- players drudged up from the depths of previous AA and A drafts, selected previously 1500s-2100s, suddenly thought worthy of a huge step up by a few classes of players:
- a few because they've added to their resumes since (Bieksa, Ryan, Wideman)
- a few who definitely looked like really strong additions to this class of players (Tom Reid, Roy Rickey, Ruslan Salei, Frank St. Marseille)
- too many to mention who probably could have waited 100-200 more picks
- a few who need more meat on the bones before they'd look good here (McLea, Augusta, Javanainen)
- and some who still seem just inexplicable (McCarthy, Klapac, Partinen, Kochta, Farda)
(note I didn't include Peltonen. There's bad, and then there's BAD. Peltonen had some degree of offensive and defensive ability, just not enough to look great among this class of players, but also not so bad that he's immensely far off from what you could have had instead. He's the kind of guy you look for as a spare IMO, not a top choice for any line, but a reasonable backup - just like Osborne, Barnes, Broten and Hogue, but what does he really have on any of them?)
But it only takes one person to draft a player not deserving.
The cooperative nature of the draft was an interesting change of pace. In that spirit, I'd like to take the cooperation to a new level. This should result in a superior "product" while still giving everyone the chance to get recognition to players they want to recognize.
The thread is coming soon.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Player A
NHL: 382 GP, 148 Pts, 0.39 PPG (age 22-35)
IHL/AHL: 132 GP, 140 Pts, 1.06 PPG (age 22-27)
SM-Liiga: 365 GP, 324 Pts, 0.89 PPG (age 19-39)
Swiss: 131 GP, 176 Pts, 1.34 PPG (age 30-32)
Player B
NHL: 407 GP, 159 Pts, 0.39 PPG (age 25-35)
IHL/AHL: 343 GP, 341 Pts, 0.99 PPG (age 22-28)
SM-Liiga: 106 GP, 97 Pts, 0.92 PPG (age 29-30)
Swiss: 183 GP, 216 Pts, 1.18 PPG (age 31-38)
- exact same NHL PPG over almost the exact same sample size at almost the exact ages
- nearly identical AHL/IHL scoring at the exact same age range, the one who scored more did so over a smaller sample
- practically identical Finnish league scoring rates, again the one who scored more did so over a smaller sample
- noticeable difference in swiss league scoring rates, probably fully explained by the ages of each player at the time
can anyone tell who these two players are who are so incredibly statistically similar? They're even only a year apart in age.
NHL: 382 GP, 148 Pts, 0.39 PPG (age 22-35)
IHL/AHL: 132 GP, 140 Pts, 1.06 PPG (age 22-27)
SM-Liiga: 365 GP, 324 Pts, 0.89 PPG (age 19-39)
Swiss: 131 GP, 176 Pts, 1.34 PPG (age 30-32)
Player B
NHL: 407 GP, 159 Pts, 0.39 PPG (age 25-35)
IHL/AHL: 343 GP, 341 Pts, 0.99 PPG (age 22-28)
SM-Liiga: 106 GP, 97 Pts, 0.92 PPG (age 29-30)
Swiss: 183 GP, 216 Pts, 1.18 PPG (age 31-38)
- exact same NHL PPG over almost the exact same sample size at almost the exact ages
- nearly identical AHL/IHL scoring at the exact same age range, the one who scored more did so over a smaller sample
- practically identical Finnish league scoring rates, again the one who scored more did so over a smaller sample
- noticeable difference in swiss league scoring rates, probably fully explained by the ages of each player at the time
can anyone tell who these two players are who are so incredibly statistically similar? They're even only a year apart in age.
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Hobnobs
Pinko
- Nov 29, 2011
- 8,915
- 2,272
The first one is Ville Peltonen and Im pretty sure the other one is Glen Metropolit.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
correct.
they're actually so similar it's uncanny.
In Metropolit's last NHL scouting report (Hockey Prospectus 2010-11) it says "he is an underused, versatile player. he can fill in at any forward position, and has put up quite decent scoring numbers given his opportunities".
Sound familiar?
Anyway, there's a point to all this and I'm sure you know what it is. Despite (for a few years) being a versatile player with decent all-around skills and a quintessential "good guy to have around" at the NHL level, Glenn Metropolit is nowhere near the kind of player we'd select in the AAA, AA, A, B, C, D, E or F drafts, if there was such a thing. And Ville Peltonen is no better than him.
Let me qualify that last statement, though. Ville Peltonen is best known as a LW, and Metropolit would start at center if we ever drafted him. So Peltonen has to compete with available left wingers, which is much easier than competing with available centers, as Metropolit would have to do. On that basis alone, Peltonen would have to be selected a couple hundred picks before Metropolit.
Secondly, all of the above has ignored what VI would say is the elephant in the room, and that is Peltonen's international scoring, particularly in best-on-best tournaments. While there's no denying that playing, and somewhat excelling, in a best on best tournament is a feather in one's cap, it must be viewed contextually just like anything else.
From 1996 to 2009 (the span of Peltonen's NHL career), he very well may have been the best Finnish left winger in the league, and therefore in the world. According to this link he arguably accomplished more than any other Finnish LW in that time. that doesn't mean there wasn't a better Finnish LW playing abroad, but there probably wasn't. Furthermore, he was seen as a good fit to play on the top line with two far superior players.
The chart VI provides annually showing Peltonen's scoring "exploits" needs to be updated for the 2010 Olympics. he had 20 points in 30 best-on-best games. the players he most often paired with, Koivu and Selanne, had 31 in 30 and 32 in 29. 1.06 to 1.03 to 0.67 is a massive gap to outscore your linemate by.If you want to remove 2010 because they were all greybeards, it was 1.30 and 1.21 to 0.79. And while I don't doubt Peltonen did a good job as the worker bee of the line, it's hard to deny that offensively, he was a passenger, in a big way. Peltonen was just very fortunate to be seen as the best LW option for Finland four times in a best-on-best, which he'd have never received had he been born in Canada, USA, Russia, Sweden, the Czech Republic, or even Slovakia. And indeed, if Glenn Metroplit was Finnish, being the type of player he was in terms of skill and skillset, if he was a LW it's not hard to imagine him being the Peltonen for Finland's top line a few times.
It's so important to break down the international scoring thing critically as it applies to Peltonen, because that's the only reason VI sees fit to trot him out year after year despite him appearing on "worst picks" lists. If we understand that these international scoring stats - earned in 2% of Peltonen's 1500 recorded games all over the world - are practically useless in understanding his worth as a player, then we're left with a guy who was a big scorer overseas in domestic leagues, and the best thing you can say about his time in the NHL is that he played there.
they're actually so similar it's uncanny.
In Metropolit's last NHL scouting report (Hockey Prospectus 2010-11) it says "he is an underused, versatile player. he can fill in at any forward position, and has put up quite decent scoring numbers given his opportunities".
Sound familiar?
Anyway, there's a point to all this and I'm sure you know what it is. Despite (for a few years) being a versatile player with decent all-around skills and a quintessential "good guy to have around" at the NHL level, Glenn Metropolit is nowhere near the kind of player we'd select in the AAA, AA, A, B, C, D, E or F drafts, if there was such a thing. And Ville Peltonen is no better than him.
Let me qualify that last statement, though. Ville Peltonen is best known as a LW, and Metropolit would start at center if we ever drafted him. So Peltonen has to compete with available left wingers, which is much easier than competing with available centers, as Metropolit would have to do. On that basis alone, Peltonen would have to be selected a couple hundred picks before Metropolit.
Secondly, all of the above has ignored what VI would say is the elephant in the room, and that is Peltonen's international scoring, particularly in best-on-best tournaments. While there's no denying that playing, and somewhat excelling, in a best on best tournament is a feather in one's cap, it must be viewed contextually just like anything else.
From 1996 to 2009 (the span of Peltonen's NHL career), he very well may have been the best Finnish left winger in the league, and therefore in the world. According to this link he arguably accomplished more than any other Finnish LW in that time. that doesn't mean there wasn't a better Finnish LW playing abroad, but there probably wasn't. Furthermore, he was seen as a good fit to play on the top line with two far superior players.
The chart VI provides annually showing Peltonen's scoring "exploits" needs to be updated for the 2010 Olympics. he had 20 points in 30 best-on-best games. the players he most often paired with, Koivu and Selanne, had 31 in 30 and 32 in 29. 1.06 to 1.03 to 0.67 is a massive gap to outscore your linemate by.If you want to remove 2010 because they were all greybeards, it was 1.30 and 1.21 to 0.79. And while I don't doubt Peltonen did a good job as the worker bee of the line, it's hard to deny that offensively, he was a passenger, in a big way. Peltonen was just very fortunate to be seen as the best LW option for Finland four times in a best-on-best, which he'd have never received had he been born in Canada, USA, Russia, Sweden, the Czech Republic, or even Slovakia. And indeed, if Glenn Metroplit was Finnish, being the type of player he was in terms of skill and skillset, if he was a LW it's not hard to imagine him being the Peltonen for Finland's top line a few times.
It's so important to break down the international scoring thing critically as it applies to Peltonen, because that's the only reason VI sees fit to trot him out year after year despite him appearing on "worst picks" lists. If we understand that these international scoring stats - earned in 2% of Peltonen's 1500 recorded games all over the world - are practically useless in understanding his worth as a player, then we're left with a guy who was a big scorer overseas in domestic leagues, and the best thing you can say about his time in the NHL is that he played there.
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I just need to comment on the Finnish lines. In Nagano IIRC in first couple of games Peltonen played with Selänne and Koivu. Atleast to the quarter final they raised Lehtinen on that line to replace Peltonen. That line just never really worked. For the Bronze game they formed back the old Huey, Dewey, and Louie because Selänne was out of that game.
In 1996 they still used Lehtinen-Koivu-Peltonen. Selänne played with atleast Juha Ylönen and Juha Riihijärvi.
In 2004 World Cup Peltonen played mostly with Olli Jokinen and Tuomo Ruutu.
In Torino he was with Olli and Jussi Jokinen. That was the second line for the whole tournament.
In 2010 he played atleast with Jarkko Ruutu and with several centers, but not with Koivu.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Thank you Sanf. I'm glad there's someone out there who remembers line combinations of other countries. I sure don't, except for most of Canada's, and I was just going by what I thought had been said before on this board. VI says that Peltonen was frequently "top six" not "top line", so fair enough.
Peltonen does not appear to have been a "passenger" offensively with the players that he played with according to the above. That's good for him at least. However, most of the guys you mentioned finished their careers with better scoring numbers in best on best tournaments (at least those with full careers to speak of).
Also, as a Canadian or American he would never even play in a best on best tournament; he'd be a 3rd liner at best for the Czechs in his career, and it's debatable whether he'd make Russia or Sweden on a 4th line in 96 or 98 (he'd have to beat out guys like Zelepukin, who was a better NHLer than he was, and Mikael Andersson, who was about as good) but he would not have a hope at either team (or the others) in 2006 or 2010. His scoring stats in these tournaments are dependent on him being there, and that's a completely situational factor, not necessarily a symptom of being a great player.
And hey, you're not who I'm arguing with here, I'm just continuing my point. Thank you for the clarification.
Hobnobs
Pinko
- Nov 29, 2011
- 8,915
- 2,272
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I know you're kidding, but anyway, no, not even close. Maybe not even top 100. (I have a sheet if everyone ever taken and I'm sure I can find 100 worse).
But he has been selected way higher than he deserves for 4-5 years now, by the same person.
