Speculation: Summer 2018 off season roster discussion

[Gecklund]

If we could get Karlsson, that would be fantastic, but like Tavares, I doubt it will happen. Our two biggest needs are partners for Burns and Vlasic. Assuming we resign Kane, our forward core should be set for the next few years. We’ll keep our ear towards the market for a true 1c, but we have enough center depth in the interim.

Kane - Jumbo - Pavelski
Hertl - Couture - Labanc
Timo - Tierney - Donskoi
Boedker - Goodrow - Karlsson
Sorenson/Balcers

Enstrom - Burns
Vlasic - Burns
Dillion - DeMelo
Ryan

Buyout Martin. Trade Heed.

That’s how I see next season shaping up. If you can add Tavares or Karlsson, absolutely, but we don’t have the pieces for either of those. Couture, Hertl, Pavelski, Vlasic, Burns and Jones are the core of this team. All are untouchable. No combination of Tierney, Dell, and Braun are going to bring you back world class athletes.

I would not be shocked to see us move a roster player to move up in the draft this year. I think a team like the Islanders, if they do resign Tavares, is going to be looking to move one of their picks for some help in this upcoming season.

We have a partner for Burns in Ryan.

 

[Sysreq]

We have a partner for Burns in Ryan.

Ya know, I agree with you, but my gut tells me the organization is gonna try to add someone from the outside. Burns didn’t exactly have a great season this year, and I just don’t see a whole lot of love from Pete DeBoer for Joakim Ryan. I think they are going to want a Martin 2.0 to help stabilize the pair.

 

[Gecklund]

Ya know, I agree with you, but my gut tells me the organization is gonna try to add someone from the outside. Burns didn’t exactly have a great season this year, and I just don’t see a whole lot of love from Pete DeBoer for Joakim Ryan. I think they are going to want a Martin 2.0 to help stabilize the pair.

Hope not. If we go into the season with someone like Martin/Enstrom/another old guy that has been passed by the modern NHL on the same pairing as Burns, we will not make the playoffs without some major help from other teams and major upgrades at forward and on the third pairing.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

On Kane at 5:00: “I’ll be sitting down with him and his agent in the next little while”

On Tierney at 7:15: “We don’t get by St. Louis a couple years ago without his performance”

On Paul Martin at 8:20: “when it comes to contract situations, or how we handle those scenarios, that’ll be kept in confidence between me and them, but trust me, it was really appreciated how they made us better”

For Martin, start at 8:00 and watch the deflection. He was asked about Martin’s contract status, then brought up Ward/Hansen/Martin as guys who helped us with their veteran leadership, even if they didn’t get to play. Sounds like Martin is certainly gone.

On Vegas at 9:35: “They had 109 points this year, we had 100 points. To not have home ice after getting 100 points tells you something.”

Blatant lie here, and this one pisses me off. 100 points very rarely gets you home ice in round 2 of the playoffs.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Ya know, I agree with you, but my gut tells me the organization is gonna try to add someone from the outside. Burns didn’t exactly have a great season this year, and I just don’t see a whole lot of love from Pete DeBoer for Joakim Ryan. I think they are going to want a Martin 2.0 to help stabilize the pair.

Which is ironic because Ryan is literally a 24 year old version of 2016 Paul Martin.

 

[Barrie22]

Which is ironic because Ryan is literally a 24 year old version of 2016 Paul Martin.

Just with a lil bit better offense.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Ya know, I agree with you, but my gut tells me the organization is gonna try to add someone from the outside. Burns didn’t exactly have a great season this year, and I just don’t see a whole lot of love from Pete DeBoer for Joakim Ryan. I think they are going to want a Martin 2.0 to help stabilize the pair.

I think Burns is the one core guy on the D who doesn’t need a new partner. Vlasic could use somebody better than Braun and Dillon could use somebody better than DeMelo. If Burns played every single game this season with Joakim Ryan, he might be up for a Norris nomination right now.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I was simply responding to Barrie’s claim that Pavelski might not hit 50 points without Thornton. That’s all. I was the original “trade Pavelski” proponent, since I’ve always felt that he’s it as good as his counting stats would suggest. You don’t need to tell me.

The thing about Pavelski is that I don’t think it’s fair to judge him by his past four playoff series. Three of those series, he was missing a healthy Joe Thornton. The other was against the best team since at least the 2010 Hawks while missing Hertl.

In regards to beating up on bad teams, he had several multi-point games after Thornton went down and a bunch of pointless games. The multi-point games were against Vegas, Edmonton, Dallas, Edmonton again, Chicago, Detroit, and Vegas again. Went notably pointless in games against Nashville x2, St. Louis x2, Washington, and Minnesota. But I think that was more of a team problem than just Pavelski per se. Of Kane’s 14 points as a Shark, only two came against a playoff team (a goal and and assist against Columbus).

On the other hand, Couture scored pretty well against playoff teams. During that span he scored against Vegas, Jersey, Nashville, and Colorado, which is actually most of the playoff teams we played. Looking at his game log from last year, he scored pretty regularly against teams like Winnipeg, LA, Anaheim, and Nashville. He’s really the only guy you could say that about; Hertl beat up on the Pacific, especially the Canadian teams.

Keeping Couture is much more of a priority than Pavelski, obviously.

I think trying to go the route of not being fair to judge Pavelski because he's missing Joe Thornton like that only strengthens the argument to move on from Pavelski. If he can only produce come playoff time with Thornton at his hip then we need to use the money he makes on someone who can produce without Thornton. It'd be one thing if Pavelski was still the swiss army knife player that he once was before he became a winger predominantly. But that time has passed and a scorer who doesn't score enough when the lights are at their brightest and/or can't generate offense on their own don't deserve that kind of pay and position moving forward.

But I agree that Pavelski should still be able to score 50 points without Thornton. But if Thornton was gone and then Burns got hurt, I think Pavelski's production would take a dramatic hit.

 

[Hinterland]

I think trying to go the route of not being fair to judge Pavelski because he's missing Joe Thornton like that only strengthens the argument to move on from Pavelski. If he can only produce come playoff time with Thornton at his hip then we need to use the money he makes on someone who can produce without Thornton. It'd be one thing if Pavelski was still the swiss army knife player that he once was before he became a winger predominantly. But that time has passed and a scorer who doesn't score enough when the lights are at their brightest and/or can't generate offense on their own don't deserve that kind of pay and position moving forward.

But I agree that Pavelski should still be able to score 50 points without Thornton. But if Thornton was gone and then Burns got hurt, I think Pavelski's production would take a dramatic hit.

Pavelski was played outta position with two badly injured players. During the regular season he saw a lot of Melker Karlsson who lost just about every puck he got. Kinda difficult to score points like that. Play Pavelski on the wing of a solid Center and give him a winger who can carry the puck and win some board battles then Pavelski will be a different player. He also got abused badly by DeBoer. Sometimes played up to 10mins (or something like that) during 3rd periods until he was barely able to move anymore. I remember some 3min shifts to close out games. That is ridiculously bad coaching and not a great position for every player to be in...let alone an aging vet.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Yeah, Pavelski got way too much ice time. He was getting upwards of 20 minutes a game down the stretch. For a guy who claims to like to roll his lines, DeBoer leans on his top forwards a LOT.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Peter DeBoer’s usage of certain players in this season was hilarious. I remember hysterically laughing during that final game in Vancouver where Kane played like 23 minutes and Burns got injured, leading to DeMelo being out there every other shift. We got murdered Corsi wise in that game and somehow barely hung on by a thread and won. The Minnesota OT loss in Minnesota was also hilarious with Braun being out sick, Heed getting benched, and DeMelo playing like 30 minutes as well.

 

[Hinterland]

Yeah, Pavelski got way too much ice time. He was getting upwards of 20 minutes a game down the stretch. For a guy who claims to like to roll his lines, DeBoer leans on his top forwards a LOT.

Time On Ice Report Home Team

It's not just the ice time...also how he distributed it. Pavelski playing 25mins is the one thing...but 11mins during the 3rd is the problem and it got more and more. Towards the end he hardly left the ice. This is exactly what I would do if I wanted to completely tire out a player. Stuff like that is gonna cost any player for not just that game...and Pavelski as an aging vet had to do it on a regular basis. Anyone saying that Pavelski wasn't good enough doesn't have a clue. If I'm Pavelski I want this fool DeBoer gone even more than I already want it to happen. Seriously. You gotta put your players in a position to succeed. Pavelski got abused with ridiculous usage, had to deal with Karlsson and got finally moved to Center between two injured players...I don't know what more DeBoer could have done to prevent Pavelski from playing a good season. It's mindboggling. I really feel sorry for the guy. You could see he was barely moving anymore but DeBoer kept on sending him right back out there during 3rd periods with almost no breaks. On an almost nightly basis. He played 19mins per game which isn't that bad. It's too much but the problem again were the 3rd periods where he got asked to play ridiculous minutes when already outta steam.

 

[hohosaregood]

Wonder if it's worth looking into something like Labanc for Hanifin

 

[ThorNton Apologist]

Wonder if it's worth looking into something like Labanc for Hanifin

If that was on the table then obviously you take it. Too bad there’s no chance Carolina moves Hanifin with Labanc being the main piece going back

 

[Pistol Pete]

Yeah, Pavelski got way too much ice time. He was getting upwards of 20 minutes a game down the stretch. For a guy who claims to like to roll his lines, DeBoer leans on his top forwards a LOT.

This is one my biggest reasons for wanting to move on from Pavs after next season. I want guys like Logan, Hertl, Timo, Donskoi, and hopefully Tavares (fingers crossed) to be the forwards that get leaned on.

I fully expect Doug to sign Pavs to an extension this summer but that seriously worries me. With the Burns and Vlasic contracts on the books for the foreseeable future, any kind of multi year commitment to Pavs might put the Sharks in modern day Red Wings territory I.E. hockey purgatory. I’m more than happy handing out long term, big money deals to guys under 30; Hertl and Logan, as well as Tavares and EK65. But we don’t need any more big money deals taking players past their age 35 season.

I love Pavs and appreciate everything he’s done for this franchise. I think he’s a great captain and teammate. I even own a Pavs jersey! But I wouldn’t be upset to see him walk like Marleau did. As others have mentioned, he doesn’t have the same physical traits and skills that Patty, Thornton, and Burns do.

 

[seroes]

I really hope pavs isn't signed to another long term contract this summer or next. He will probably get a raise and certainly be in line for big money. We already have contracts like that for Burns and Vlasic and I want to avoid being strapped with 3 contracts for aging players. I would actually want to trade him this year if we can to net what assets we can to get younger and build around a younger core.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Wonder if it's worth looking into something like Labanc for Hanifin

Carolina might find that while looking for a comedy show. No chance they do that.

 

[Hinterland]

Wonder if it's worth looking into something like Labanc for Hanifin

Why would Carolina wanna move their 2015 5th overall for a 2014 6th rounder. Sharks probably would need to add a 1st at least...probably significantly more. And if Labanc had some decent value it surely dropped during the playoffs.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Pavelski was played outta position with two badly injured players. During the regular season he saw a lot of Melker Karlsson who lost just about every puck he got. Kinda difficult to score points like that. Play Pavelski on the wing of a solid Center and give him a winger who can carry the puck and win some board battles then Pavelski will be a different player. He also got abused badly by DeBoer. Sometimes played up to 10mins (or something like that) during 3rd periods until he was barely able to move anymore. I remember some 3min shifts to close out games. That is ridiculously bad coaching and not a great position for every player to be in...let alone an aging vet.

Center is not out of position for Pavelski. He grew up playing and had played it professionally for quite some time. I can agree with being overplayed and I can agree with having less than ideal linemates but if he's not capable of providing the offense on his own when needed then he's still got to go. There's very little place for a slow, declining aging one-way winger especially on a team that has too many slow people as it is.

 

[Hinterland]

Center is not out of position for Pavelski. He grew up playing and had played it professionally for quite some time. I can agree with being overplayed and I can agree with having less than ideal linemates but if he's not capable of providing the offense on his own when needed then he's still got to go. There's very little place for a slow, declining aging one-way winger especially on a team that has too many slow people as it is.

Pavelski never created anything on his own. He always was a scorer and not a playmaker. Therefore he never was too good of a Center. And even if, you still don't move aging players from Wing to Center...you do it the other way around. A Center has to play way more defense and has more responsibilities. Playing that position will wear older players down eventually...especially if they're not defensive specialists or playmakers. Just look at all the examples, Giroux being the latest. They all go the other way. DeBoer's usage of Pavelski was beyond stupid.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Pavelski never created anything on his own. He always was a scorer and not a playmaker. Therefore he never was too good of a Center. And even if, you still don't move aging players from Wing to Center...you do it the other way around. A Center has to play way more defense and has more responsibilities. Playing that position will wear older players down eventually...especially if they're not defensive specialists or playmakers. Just look at all the examples, Giroux being the latest. They all go the other way. DeBoer's usage of Pavelski was beyond stupid.

I guess you didn’t watch hockey before 2012 because Pavelski was a very effective #2C at that time.

 

[Hinterland]

I guess you didn’t watch hockey before 2012 because Pavelski was a very effective #2C at that time.

Depends on what you call effective. I think based on his tools and playing style he always was a better Winger than Center. He was a good Center option earlier in his career but he's not anymore. It happened to many good players before him.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Pavelski never created anything on his own. He always was a scorer and not a playmaker. Therefore he never was too good of a Center. And even if, you still don't move aging players from Wing to Center...you do it the other way around. A Center has to play way more defense and has more responsibilities. Playing that position will wear older players down eventually...especially if they're not defensive specialists or playmakers. Just look at all the examples, Giroux being the latest. They all go the other way. DeBoer's usage of Pavelski was beyond stupid.

Pavelski created plenty on his own before being at Thornton's hip so that's simply not true. I agree that you move centers to wing as they age but that's only furthering my point of letting him walk at the end of his contract. He didn't just forget how to play the position. He knows how. He's just not good at it anymore. He's good at one thing and if he can't manufacture the offense then he's not worth the kind of money he'd be paid. DeBoer's usage of Pavelski was pretty much a matter of what his options were. There wasn't a real way to keep Pavelski at wing without splitting up Hertl/Couture.

 

[Le Rosbeef]

If Kane wanted to sign a 3 year, 21 million dollar deal then I'd seriously consider it but I don't see a good reason for him to accept that. The thing is that I'm more interested in addressing bigger long-term issues with the team than upgrading a spot that we have a decent amount of talent already on.

100% agree.

Not going to lie, I think re-signing Kane will be a monumental mistake that sets the Sharks back 3-5 years in pursuit of a cup. Kane is a better-than-average top 6 winger but his injury question marks, supposed character issues and frankly so-so goalscoring record (186 goals in 574 NHL games) are not worth what he's going to get paid in UFA. He's 52nd amongst forwards over his 9 year NHL career in goals-per-game average (0.324 GpG) - that's a top 6 guy, but not a $7m+ first line LW.

Take out his 4 goal burst against Calgary, which is an anomaly, and he had 5 goals in regular 17 games (with an injury) where making the playoffs was firmly on the line. He scored 2 goals in G1 vs Anaheim and then added just 2 goals in the next 8 playoff games (with an injury).

Talk of offering this guy $7m+ should be a big red flag. IMO. It's not what you get now, it's the opportunity cost of what you don't get. That cap space should be used on a different UFA (or a guy through trade) for another area of the team - namely the D really needs work. Losing a 1st rounder next year also really doesn't appeal unless it's on a slam-dunk type of contract - making him our highest paid forward seems profligate. Anyone can sort themselves out ahead of a bumper contract pay day - I can't see any way he isn't banged up and sidelined come November next year when the ink is dried... We have Meier, Hertl, Donskoi, Labanc, Pavelski, maybe Balcers down the road... wing isn't the critical position of need. Heck, if you really want a winger, draft one this Summer - there will be several around at 21 that would fit (my favourite would be Martin Kaut)...

I'm sure some team will pay his asking price in free agency, but that doesn't make him worth it. If he was willing to sign for $6m or under, I'd do it. Chance of that happening are slim to none...

 

[Maladroit]

I don't want to re-sign Kane either but it's not really fair to just discount his four-goal game to make that case. All goal scorers are streaky and score in bunches. It doesn't make much of a difference in the long run if he scored four goals in one game or spread those out evenly over four games.

Anyway I agree with the rest of the sentiment completely. Kane should be well behind Tavares and Thornton (as well as Couture's next contract) on the list of priorities.