Yup, and is a wizard with the puck with the ability to go end to end. He relieves a lot of pressure by carrying it out. Players with his skill set are hard to come by. Consistency will only improve with age. Its either we pay 4x5 now, or pay 3-3.5x2, then pay around 5-6 in two years when we will need the money. Its a smart move by Leafs management to lock him up now for a cheaper rate. If Montreal GM could go back, I'm sure they would of signed PK to a long contract verses a bridge deal. Silly not too.
News Article: Stamkos favours tweet linking him to the leafs
- Thread starter Byron Bitz
- Start date
Yup, and is a wizard with the puck with the ability to go end to end. He relieves a lot of pressure by carrying it out. Players with his skill set are hard to come by. Consistency will only improve with age. Its either we pay 4x5 now, or pay 3-3.5x2, then pay around 5-6 in two years when we will need the money. Its a smart move by Leafs management to lock him up now for a cheaper rate. If Montreal GM could go back, I'm sure they would of signed PK to a long contract verses a bridge deal. Silly not too.
The Winter Soldier
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How did this become a Gardiner discussion? You are repeating what you said in 3 different threads, we get it. You think Gardiner and Subban are on the same path. I don't see the comparison in players frankly. Subban is a former Norris winner for starters.
We are talking about Stamkos maybe becoming a Leaf, maybe Subban too, and given there are some angles this may happen. Adding anymore big salaries to our team is not a good idea if we are going to make a 21-22 Million offer to both.
Was responding to another poster. Again, there are others on here besides you. And when did you gain the power to decide what gets discussed. If you don't like what I have to say, I encourage you to put me on your ignore list. No hard feelings if you do.
i think we can all agree that the one of stamkos or subban choosing to sign as a ufa with the leafs is far fetched at best. the chance of both wanting to sign with the leafs while nice to fantasize about is pretty much delusional.
either way, the leafs need to build their team with players available today not worry about what can be in 2 years from now. it would be foolish not to sign a player today because we might be able to get a better down the road. i think its one of those bird in the hand type things. as an example if krejci makes it to ufa in 2015 and the leafs can sign him they might be better off signing him for sure then hoping to sign stamkos the following summer.
looking at the leafs roster we only have 1/3 of the roster committed past 2 years. obviously players like bernier, kadri, and rielly will be here and making more but the point is as long as nonis/shanny dont overpay ala clarkson we should be fine cap wise in the general sense. as for clearing enough cap space for both stamkos and subban it would be a pretty difficult task no doubt if not impossible. it would take bozak/kadri + lupul + robidas to clear enough for just one of them.
The Winter Soldier
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We have been beaten down so much as Leafs fans, I don't blame Leafs fans for thinking no way Subban or Stamkos would come to play in Toronto.
All I know is if they both make it to Free agency, we need to be in position to offer 21-22 million dollars to tie them up.
Rarely I would endorse giving that much money to 2 players, but if Chicago can do it, Stamkos and Subban are worth it too. Let's just have the capspace to put ourselves in this position. Then let Leiweke sell them on coming home.
Far fetched or not, the less rewarding big contracts for mediocre players, the better we will be.
All I know is having Subban and Stamkos as a core for this team brings us closer to the cup, than the current core we have. If we are going to be all in, then blow it up, and make the offer and let these 2 guys decide. Toronto is not such a bad place for a Toronto boy to play, especially the thought of bringing home the cup to your hometown.
Daisy Jane
everything is gonna be okay!
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let's sum it up like this
If the Leafs just gave every single person on their team short term contracts, we would end up in a situation where we were last year with a tonne load of RFAs to sign with arbitration rights, some without, and UFAs. having to sign some contracts to avoid arbitration, let some UFAs go and sign an albatross.
This season the leafs signed a lot of 1 year contracts, some stabilizing contracts and some long term ones. I will repeat it one more time. Actually let me make it much more simple: the only person on the Toronto Maple Leafs who can not be moved at all is David Clarkson.
Every single long term deal has a limited no trade clause:
Kessel's is at eight teams
Everyone else [Dion, Bozak, Lupul] is between a sliding scale of 10-15.
Jake, Leo's & JVR's are the only "fair to middle contracts we have" they have 0 protection
Even addressing Kadri & Bernier people make it sound like, "oop!" can't move ANYONE. You never know what happens. Did anyone predict MSL demanding out of Tampa? Nope. things change, lists can grow, the players can be moved
Management can not sit down and go "Hm. you know. Stamkos MAY be available in two years let me plan for this maybe." and make all moves. Because if that were so, we would be 100 percent mad that's how they are operating.
If the Leafs just gave every single person on their team short term contracts, we would end up in a situation where we were last year with a tonne load of RFAs to sign with arbitration rights, some without, and UFAs. having to sign some contracts to avoid arbitration, let some UFAs go and sign an albatross.
This season the leafs signed a lot of 1 year contracts, some stabilizing contracts and some long term ones. I will repeat it one more time. Actually let me make it much more simple: the only person on the Toronto Maple Leafs who can not be moved at all is David Clarkson.
Every single long term deal has a limited no trade clause:
Kessel's is at eight teams
Everyone else [Dion, Bozak, Lupul] is between a sliding scale of 10-15.
Jake, Leo's & JVR's are the only "fair to middle contracts we have" they have 0 protection
Even addressing Kadri & Bernier people make it sound like, "oop!" can't move ANYONE. You never know what happens. Did anyone predict MSL demanding out of Tampa? Nope. things change, lists can grow, the players can be moved
Management can not sit down and go "Hm. you know. Stamkos MAY be available in two years let me plan for this maybe." and make all moves. Because if that were so, we would be 100 percent mad that's how they are operating.
The Winter Soldier
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I know what you are saying, but what has locking up players has done for this team?
I cannot see this team in the same light as LA's. Their top 7 guys locked up sure beats our top 9 guys locked uo and the list is growing if we do the unthinkable, sign Kadri and Bernier to long deals too. That would make it 11 and we haven't even won the cup 2x as the Kings have.
If this picture is not right, I can't illustrate it better. Nonis is not the best manager of money or the cap. Not sure why he is so hung ho on long term contracts, you would think he was locking up a dynasty or he thought there was no cap at all.
With 2 superstar GTA players perhaps becoming UFA's in 2 years, the point is accentuated more, even if this were not the case, there is no need to have 11 players on this team signed to long term contracts. It restricts what the team can do in moves or when an opportunity arrises as it may in 2016.
So was Subban a Leafs fan growing up?
It doesn't matter too much of course, but it definitely wouldn't hurt our odds of getting him if he was
It doesn't matter too much of course, but it definitely wouldn't hurt our odds of getting him if he was
crump
~ ~ (ړײ) ~ ~
4. Staying on the basketball theme: With LeBron James returning to Cleveland this summer, have you ever considered going home to play in Toronto?
"Still, Karl was a devoted fan of the Sudbury Wolves junior club and, in part because he learned the game in a francophone neighbourhood, Les Canadiens. P.K. had inherited his father's passion for the Habs long before draft day – a Canadiens flag still hangs in his bedroom – which is among the reasons Montreal's rabid fans have already erected Internet fan clubs in homage to the 43rd-overall pick in June, whose residence in Montreal has so far amounted to a training-camp try."
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2007/12/24/pk_subbans_nhl_dream.html
PK: Um, I’d be wrong to say that I haven’t thought about it. But one thing’s for sure: Montreal’s a great place to play. The start to a tremendous career — hopefully — has been great in Montreal, when you think that we’ve put together a team that’s been in the playoffs in three out of four years. I’ve been a big part of it. I’ve had individual success as well as team success. You look at last year, what we accomplished. And really, just setting the stage for a legacy there that, possibly, some players will never have in any organization. So I look at that first. But definitely, to think that, at some point, you may have the opportunity to play in your hometown? Yeah, it’s unique. But I’m not in a position to elaborate any more on that. All I can say is that I’ve heard a lot about it, I’ve thought about it — but I’m very happy where I am right now, and they’ve treated me so well.”
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014...toronto-and-don-cherrys-antics/?__federated=1
"Still, Karl was a devoted fan of the Sudbury Wolves junior club and, in part because he learned the game in a francophone neighbourhood, Les Canadiens. P.K. had inherited his father's passion for the Habs long before draft day – a Canadiens flag still hangs in his bedroom – which is among the reasons Montreal's rabid fans have already erected Internet fan clubs in homage to the 43rd-overall pick in June, whose residence in Montreal has so far amounted to a training-camp try."
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2007/12/24/pk_subbans_nhl_dream.html
PK: Um, I’d be wrong to say that I haven’t thought about it. But one thing’s for sure: Montreal’s a great place to play. The start to a tremendous career — hopefully — has been great in Montreal, when you think that we’ve put together a team that’s been in the playoffs in three out of four years. I’ve been a big part of it. I’ve had individual success as well as team success. You look at last year, what we accomplished. And really, just setting the stage for a legacy there that, possibly, some players will never have in any organization. So I look at that first. But definitely, to think that, at some point, you may have the opportunity to play in your hometown? Yeah, it’s unique. But I’m not in a position to elaborate any more on that. All I can say is that I’ve heard a lot about it, I’ve thought about it — but I’m very happy where I am right now, and they’ve treated me so well.”
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014...toronto-and-don-cherrys-antics/?__federated=1
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I agree. We have to work with what we got now, not what might be possible two years from now. If we give up our young skilled players, and then we don't end up getting Stamkos or Subban, then we are in an even worse position. Players like JVR, Gardiner, Kadri and Bernier will not be hard to move. Its the older players with long term deals that will be hard to move. Like you said, a lot can change in two years, and we don't know who will become available. Work with what you got and go from there.
I have little doubt that this will be the new normal... but that doesn't mean it will allow them to win more cups. The vast majority of other stars are locked up to deals on a scale where the Crosby/Malkins/Ovies are locked up to $9.5m.
Whether they were cap circumventing deals or not, the simple fact is, teams must compete against each other, and the other team has players on those deals. We can't compete against those teams if we're paying Subban $12m or Stamkos $14m, at least not until towards the end of the deal, and we cannot operate hoping to win a cup in 2022.
HoweHullOrr
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- Oct 3, 2013
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Hard to believe the quibbling is about a thread that has us getting both Stamkos AND Subban. I think we are in alternate universe territory here.
:
Daisy Jane
everything is gonna be okay!
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which is why.... the man who was our contract negotiator and capologist was fired?
the team can not work on the premise that players may reach free agency; that's not their job. We can be all loolooalloo Stamkos 2016.They have to worry about 2014, and 2015 first. And I don't know who would be all like 'Yah, sure, you know i'm going to be good with a 2-3 year contract to play here because i haven't won anything yet."
and again I repeat the only contract that can not be be removed from the Toronto Maple Leafs without an issue is David Clarkson.
Everyone else, can be traded. Regardless of how people feel about them, a good chunk of those pieces can be traded. So the "oh we have x players on long term contracts and we're going to add two more, oh woe!" is silly. If Toronto wants to sign Stamkos and Subban, they would find a way to make it happen. but they can not operate hoping that they or anyone else would make it to free agency.
in fact it wouldn't surprise me if some of those players wouldn't be traded within the next two seasons anyway - not to bring S&S here but because they [the players] don't fit.
The Winter Soldier
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Which should be a lesson learned, perhaps Loiselle was fired for tying up mediocre players to immovable contracts, I keep reading players can simply be traded. I have already read via Kyper sources Dion can only be moved if we retain salary, so sure we can move players, but we retained salary. We even did this for Gunnar, retained part of his salary. So yes we can move players but long term contracts are a weight around our necks, when we are often retaining salary. A point many are ignoring here. Do you have faith Nonis can unload salary as well as Burke did? We once had capspace, we don't now. There is no way we should have 11 players locked up for a team that is nowhere near winning a cup, nevermind even making the playoffs if we add Bernier and Kadri to this list.
Nope we should be looking at locking up players like Subban and Stamkos no matter what the % this is, not mediocre players that have proven to have not been able to even make the playoffs or at least once in a blue moon.
Daisy Jane
everything is gonna be okay!
- Jul 2, 2009
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people are funny.
When I say - we should let the player walk because Cap Space IS an asset, people go "No Daisy, that's stupid, because we're not gaining anything back, ie: prospect, player, pick. Ergo we should sign them and we can trade them later."
and then when I say "Well they are signed and they can be moved" it's 'NO because they are signed long term, and we can't make a move now without doing xyz."
to which, I will just say everyone is miserable, and there is no one way to make everyone happy.
When I say - we should let the player walk because Cap Space IS an asset, people go "No Daisy, that's stupid, because we're not gaining anything back, ie: prospect, player, pick. Ergo we should sign them and we can trade them later."
and then when I say "Well they are signed and they can be moved" it's 'NO because they are signed long term, and we can't make a move now without doing xyz."
to which, I will just say everyone is miserable, and there is no one way to make everyone happy.
The Winter Soldier
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Let's just agree that this current core of 11 players is not going to win the Cup. The goal is to win the cup still. Can anyone say we are close to doing this with this set of players we have locked up?
You look at a team like LA and they have 7 locked up players, Leafs if they lock up Bernier and Kadri will have 11. There is no room for a Stamkos or Subban when you have this many players locked up. I think we can all agree a Stamkos or Subban would bring us closer to a cup than any of the 9 players we have locked up with possibly 2 more on the docket.
Trade sure! But all we need is more Gunnar trades where we retain salary and we are back to square one. So yes, we can possibly move Dion, Clarkson, Gardiner, Robidas, Lupul, act… but not if your player evaluations are off when retaining salary is part of the deal. Nonis has handcuffed this organization. We have a team of mediocre players tied up long term. We need to find creative ways as Burke did unloading some of these salaries if we are truly going to make changes in a cap world.
You look at a team like LA and they have 7 locked up players, Leafs if they lock up Bernier and Kadri will have 11. There is no room for a Stamkos or Subban when you have this many players locked up. I think we can all agree a Stamkos or Subban would bring us closer to a cup than any of the 9 players we have locked up with possibly 2 more on the docket.
Trade sure! But all we need is more Gunnar trades where we retain salary and we are back to square one. So yes, we can possibly move Dion, Clarkson, Gardiner, Robidas, Lupul, act… but not if your player evaluations are off when retaining salary is part of the deal. Nonis has handcuffed this organization. We have a team of mediocre players tied up long term. We need to find creative ways as Burke did unloading some of these salaries if we are truly going to make changes in a cap world.
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hard to disagree that adding stamkos and subban wouldnt put the leafs closer to being a contending team.
im hoping that with shanny and dubas in toronto now that nonis might not be so quick to dish out silly contracts. or maybe nonis got burned so bad on the clarkson deal that he is shell shocked to give out more significant deals?
i cant seem to find a way for toronto create enough cap space for both stamkos and subban. we cant really rely on cap going up either as if the cap goes up the cost for stamkos/subban will likely go up equally.
i disagree. its not the cost of the star players that will be detrimental to a team, its the overpayment of lesser players. if you use the leafs as an example last season they had clarkson at $5.25 + bolland at $3.35 + gleason at $4 million. the leafs would be better off giving thats money to stamkos and signing players like winnik, santorelli, and booth at ~$1 million each.
also, you cant compare the value of 2 contracts signed at 2 different times. even though crosby at $8.7 million will look like an absolute steal when others are making over $10, the lesser tier players will be making almost as much as crosby.
yubbers
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The Winter Soldier
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Well said, I have no problem spending money, but I don't want to spend big money on after market parts so to speak when I can get the better parts by spending it on the real thing.
I'll throw in another name, Milan Lucic can go to UFA in 2016 if he chooses.
If he hits the UFA market as well as Stamkos, and Subban do in 2016.
We will need a large wallet to bid for these players. All would be worth their going rates and then some.
Can't think of 3 better players to build a team around. This is good spending, and not the Nonis type of spending we've seen of late.
Nithoniniel
Registered User
So we keep away from giving up salary in trades. We keep away from giving big UFA contracts to mediocre players. That's the issues here, really. Nothing else has anything to do with stopping us from going after Stamkos and Subban, if they against all predictions actually get to UFA.
It's a 69 million dollar cap when their contract starts. And it looks like it'll continue to rise.
I really think there's a strong chance of Subban and Stamkos playing for you guys. I mean if they wanted to stay they would've brushed off the question because their responses are sort of unsettling for their home fans. You guys are lucky, Giroux never talks about coming to Ottawa
Players have used Toronto as leverage for a long time. Doesn't mean they will come here.
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